Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Basako]

Frieza could have always mediated and gotten to a higher state of being like Piccolo while in hell. Something like that could make him the strongest pretty easily and give Goku a legitimate reason for asking Frieza to join.

I don't think he could really meditate with those dolls and fairies singing and dancing around him. It should take a very calm mind to ignore them, which I doubt Freezer has.

Edit: Anyway, he was already really strong. The third waiting for Gohan and 17's confirmed new levels.

[GodKaio-Ken]

Frieza could have always mediated and gotten to a higher state of being like Piccolo while in hell. Something like that could make him the strongest pretty easily and give Goku a legitimate reason for asking Frieza to join.

I don't think he could really meditate with those dolls and fairies singing and dancing around him. It should take a very calm mind to ignore them, which I doubt Freezer has.

Well my current headcanon, and its silly, is he could have accidentally started image training by imagining the faces of Goku and Vegeta on the little critters lol

[ZombieVito]

Goku held back. He did it against Krillin when he used Super Saiyan and then Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan on him when he could have pounded Krillin without transforming. Roshi also fought 'evenly' with Goku, yet no one says that Roshi is equal to base form Goku or Goku isn't using god ki, that's why he's weak.

Two-base theory doesn't work because the two-base theory goes on the notion that Goku has a base form with god ki. He fought final form Freeza and everyone sensed him until he went Blue. He fought both Frost and Hit in base, yet no one noted that Goku got stronger while fighting Hit in his base form.

And what recent article?

Huh? This is flat out incorrect.

Having the power of Super Saiyan God in base =/= Having god ki.

Saiyan beyondd God doesn't have god ki. The end of the BoG arc proved as much.

It was information on volume F. It said Saiyans can have the power of Super Saiyan God without changing forms. It's a few pages back, you'll have no problem finding it.

Okay, so what is this super powerful base form made of and why does a weaker base form even exists? And didn't anyone noticed the different between base form Goku against Frost then the one who fought Hit?

Saiyan beyond God is them using the whole power of Super Saiyan God in their base form. They have no god ki.

It exists because they use their old Super Saiyan forms. By Goku's own explination in RoF, the forms shouldn't exist anymore if they are using the power of Super Saiyan God in their base. Even in the Monaka arc, Vegeta explains this to that old alien.

[HeroR]

Saiyan beyond God is them using the whole power of Super Saiyan God in their base form. They have no god ki.

It exists because they use their old Super Saiyan forms. By Goku's own explination in RoF, the forms shouldn't exist anymore if they are using the power of Super Saiyan God in their base. Even in the Monaka arc, Vegeta explains this to that old alien.

You didn't answer the question. What is this 'Saiyan Beyond God' made of to make the base form so powerful and why do they even have a weaker base form. Even more the term 'Saiyan Beyond God' was only ever used in Heroes. Such a thing has never been acknowledge in any media, not even Xenoverse that has every Super Saiyan form in existence. And why didn't anyone comment on Goku's base form being massively stronger against Hit then it was against Frost? Why would can't the old Super Saiyan forms used this Saiyan Beyond God form if it doesn't have god ki and if it doesn't have god ki why it is even called Saiyan Beyond God? And why even transformed since they can used this Saiyan Beyond God like Gohan's Ultimate form and save energy?

Also, Goku's explanation doesn't exclude any of his Super Saiyan forms.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Saiyan beyond God is them using the whole power of Super Saiyan God in their base form. They have no god ki.

It exists because they use their old Super Saiyan forms. By Goku's own explination in RoF, the forms shouldn't exist anymore if they are using the power of Super Saiyan God in their base. Even in the Monaka arc, Vegeta explains this to that old alien.

Now that's where the confusion comes in.

In the anime, it wasn't clear about where Saiyan Beyond God actually stood, which means that the writers may have been able to shift the bar for its power downward to less ridiculous levels. Saiyan Beyond God is merely the state of making god power as one's own in the base state. It's not even technically "SSG's power" anymore, just Goku and Vegeta's own.

In the anime, we got some extra tidbits about SSB, mainly that not letting Ki leak out is involved in its creation somehow and that the form has better Ki control than even FPSS.

It's my belief that not letting Ki leak out in the SS form of a SBG results in SSB, which also handily explains why Goku wasn't a SSB in BoG, and why the SS forms can still be transformed into. By all means, SSB is still a SS with the power of SSG, but this theory helps bridge the gap, and also ties in with the "evidence" brought up for the movie. Goku and Vegeta freely control their godly-power without changing form, which can be equated to not letting their Ki leak out in base form to take full advantage of their SSG power, upon which transforming into a SS evolves into the SSB state.

It's honestly a lot like Two-Base Theory in terms of principle, but there's no need to create separate power levels and try to jump through hoops about when one power level is being used over another.

[LowRyder2005]

I agree that Freeza coming back should definitely prove helpful, as others pointed out.
If Fourth Form Freeza - who's expressly said to be somewhat inferior to the base Goku we see in ROF - is stated in no uncertain terms to be stronger than Final Form Frost, it should be conclusive in regards to proving the existence of retcons/ two bases or whatever; even for those unconvinced in regards to Gohan being extremely weak at the time of ROF.

Final Form Frost being stronger than Fourth Form Freeza could not as decisive (i.e. "but what if Frost trained"), but it would definitely strengthen the idea that Super was meant to be more straightforward all along, and a lot.

Why would can't the old Super Saiyan forms used this Saiyan Beyond God form if it doesn't have god ki and if it doesn't have god ki why it is even called Saiyan Beyond God?

Semantics aren't really a problem: at bare minimum, they are Saiyans who obtained "godly attributes" and who had to go through the ritual of Super Saiyan Gods, hence they are "beyond God(s)". Regarding the "unreferenced in any media" part, you might want to take a look at the ROF pamphlet. If you follow Why would can't the old Super Saiyan forms used this Saiyan Beyond God form if it doesn't have god ki and if it doesn't have god ki why it is even called Saiyan Beyond God? the excerpt that was published (it technically parrots Goku's own words in the movie) it states unambiguously that by the time ROF takes place Saiyans "will give birth to Super Saiyan God Super Saiyans" as long as they wield the power of a god in their base form.

Verbatim, either they are able to suppress or temporarily expunge their godly power in some form (a.k.a. they are not "god-like Saiyans" at all times), or they are literally stated not to turn regular Super Saiyan when they transform. It's not exactly baseless as it is unreferenced in-universe. Again, though, the extract would apply to the movies; we don't know exactly if Super is meant to follow that particular condition as well. It's not really far-fetched to speculate that the regular Super Saiyan forms were supposed to be "retired" for Goku and Vegeta when the ROF movie happened and that they were brought back for Super.

[ZombieVito]

Saiyan beyond God is them using the whole power of Super Saiyan God in their base form. They have no god ki.

It exists because they use their old Super Saiyan forms. By Goku's own explination in RoF, the forms shouldn't exist anymore if they are using the power of Super Saiyan God in their base. Even in the Monaka arc, Vegeta explains this to that old alien.

You didn't answer the question. What is this 'Saiyan Beyond God' made of to make the base form so powerful and why do they even have a weaker base form. Even more the term 'Saiyan Beyond God' was only ever used in Heroes. Such a thing has never been acknowledge in any media, not even Xenoverse that has every Super Saiyan form in existence. And why didn't anyone comment on Goku's base form being massively stronger against Hit then it was against Frost? Why would can't the old Super Saiyan forms used this Saiyan Beyond God form if it doesn't have god ki and if it doesn't have god ki why it is even called Saiyan Beyond God? And why even transformed since they can used this Saiyan Beyond God like Gohan's Ultimate form and save energy?

Also, Goku's explanation doesn't exclude any of his Super Saiyan forms.

It's made of the power of Super Saiyan God. It was called SbG because that's exactly what they do, they made the power their own and got stronger than before by the time RoF starts.

They can't have the power of SSG when turning Yellow. If that's the case they'll turn Blue.

Everytime they turned Yellow they do it when they are either testing their opponent out or fighting non seriously (Not to death).

Answer me this now:

Why can't Trunks sense god ki? Base Goku can but then he was matched as a SSJ2 by Trunks. That doesn't make sense unless you apply SbG.

[HeroR]

I agree that Freeza coming back should definitely prove helpful, as others pointed out.
If Fourth Form Freeza - who's expressly said to be somewhat inferior to the base Goku we see in ROF - is stated in no uncertain terms to be stronger than Final Form Frost, it should be conclusive in regards to proving the existence of retcons/ two bases or whatever; even for those unconvinced with Gohan being extremely weak at the time of ROF.

Final Form Frost being stronger than Fourth Form Freeza could not as decisive (i.e. "but what if Frost trained"), but it would definitely strengthen the idea that Super was meant to be more straightforward all along.

Why would can't the old Super Saiyan forms used this Saiyan Beyond God form if it doesn't have god ki and if it doesn't have god ki why it is even called Saiyan Beyond God?

Semantics aren't really a problem: at bare minimum, they are Saiyans who obtained "godly attributes" and who had to go through the ritual of Super Saiyan Gods, hence they are "beyond God(s)". Regarding the "unreferenced in any media" part, you might want to take a look at the ROF pamphlet. If you follow the excerpt that was ad litteram - which technically parrots Goku's own words - it means that by the time ROF takes place Saiyans "will give birth to Super Saiyan God Super Saiyans" as long as they wield the power of a god in their base form.

Verbatim, either they are able to suppress or temporarily expunge their godly power in some form (a.k.a. they are not "god-like Saiyans" at all times), or they are literally stated not to turn regular Super Saiyan when they true. It's not exactly baseless as it is unreferenced in-universe. Again, though, the extract would apply to the movies; we don't know exactly if Super is meant to follow that particular condition as well. It's not really far-fetched to speculate that the regular Super Saiyan forms were supposed to be "retired" for Goku and Vegeta when the ROF movie happened and that they were brought back for Super.

The pamphlet only supports what Toriyama said about Goku not needing Super Saiyan God anymore since he absorbed it.

And again, if they have this powerful base form, why are they still using Super Saiyan that drain stamina instead of this energy efficient super base? Goku is all about saving energy above all else which is why he really doesn't used Super Saiyan 2 and 3 anymore, but if he had this base that saves a lot of stamina, why even bother going even Super Saiyan? And why didn't anyone comment about Goku's base form being massively stronger against Hit compared to Frost? What are the visual cues since Goku didn't power up against Hit before they fought? Why isn't this super base not in any video games, besides Heroes, where every other form the Saiyans have are. They can't just put a bright aura around them like Ultimate Gohan.

It's made of the power of Super Saiyan God. It was called SbG because that's exactly what they do, they made the power their own and got stronger than before by the time RoF starts.

They can't have the power of SSG when turning Yellow. If that's the case they'll turn Blue.

Everytime they turned Yellow they do it when they are either testing their opponent out or fighting non seriously (Not to death).

Answer me this now:

Why can't Trunks sense god ki? Base Goku can but then he was matched as a SSJ2 by Trunks. That doesn't make sense unless you apply SbG.

How can it be made of Super Saiyan God if he has no god ki? In Super and Battle of Gods all Super Saiyan God did was make him stronger. And Saiyan Beyond God was only used in Heroes. No other media have this form existing, not even Xenoverse that has every Super Saiyan form.

Why? It doesn't have god ki so why can't they used it with Blue? What is the reasoning behind this? You said yourself that this base is just normal ki 'enhance' with by god ki.

They have this super base that is powerful and energy efficient, which was the reason why they used Super Saiyan during the Champa Saga. They have perfect ki control so they can perfectly match their opponent with this super base without killing him. Goku was comfortable enough to used Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan against Krillin without fear of killing him.

Super Saiyan 2 Trunks was never a match against Goku. All Goku did was blocked and catch Trunks' fists in mid-attack. By this logic Krillin is a match for Super Saiyan since he actually made Goku move. Heck, Roshi made Goku move more than Trunks. Skinny Buu did more than Super Saiyan 2 Trunks. How can you say they were evenly match?

And you still haven't answer why the hell didn't anyone noticed the power different between base form Goku vs. Frost and base form Goku vs. Hit. Are you going to tell me that Goku didn't used this powerful base form against Hit?

[TheMikado]

Frieza could have always mediated and gotten to a higher state of being like Piccolo while in hell. Something like that could make him the strongest pretty easily and give Goku a legitimate reason for asking Frieza to join.

I don't think he could really meditate with those dolls and fairies singing and dancing around him. It should take a very calm mind to ignore them, which I doubt Freezer has.

Well my current headcanon, and its silly, is he could have accidentally started image training by imagining the faces of Goku and Vegeta on the little critters lol

Exactly, after his last defeat he could have mentally broke come out with a completely Zen personality where he image training and unlocked even higher levels of power. I mean anything is possible now so I don't see why Frieza being the strongest again through some BS mechanism is a far stretch. I mean after the events of the FT arc isn't Vegeta the strongest in terms of raw power anyway?

[LowRyder2005]

I agree that Freeza coming back should definitely prove helpful, as others pointed out.
If Fourth Form Freeza - who's expressly said to be somewhat inferior to the base Goku we see in ROF - is stated in no uncertain terms to be stronger than Final Form Frost, it should be conclusive in regards to proving the existence of retcons/ two bases or whatever; even for those unconvinced with Gohan being extremely weak at the time of ROF.

Final Form Frost being stronger than Fourth Form Freeza could not as decisive (i.e. "but what if Frost trained"), but it would definitely strengthen the idea that Super was meant to be more straightforward all along.

Why would can't the old Super Saiyan forms used this Saiyan Beyond God form if it doesn't have god ki and if it doesn't have god ki why it is even called Saiyan Beyond God?

Semantics aren't really a problem: at bare minimum, they are Saiyans who obtained "godly attributes" and who had to go through the ritual of Super Saiyan Gods, hence they are "beyond God(s)". Regarding the "unreferenced in any media" part, you might want to take a look at the ROF pamphlet. If you follow the excerpt that was ad litteram - which technically parrots Goku's own words - it means that by the time ROF takes place Saiyans "will give birth to Super Saiyan God Super Saiyans" as long as they wield the power of a god in their base form.

Verbatim, either they are able to suppress or temporarily expunge their godly power in some form (a.k.a. they are not "god-like Saiyans" at all times), or they are literally stated not to turn regular Super Saiyan when they true. It's not exactly baseless as it is unreferenced in-universe. Again, though, the extract would apply to the movies; we don't know exactly if Super is meant to follow that particular condition as well. It's not really far-fetched to speculate that the regular Super Saiyan forms were supposed to be "retired" for Goku and Vegeta when the ROF movie happened and that they were brought back for Super.

The pamphlet only supports what Toriyama said about Goku not needing Super Saiyan God anymore since he absorbed it.

And again, if they have this powerful base form, why are they still using Super Saiyan that drain stamina instead of this energy efficient super base? Goku is all about saving energy above all else which is why he really doesn't used Super Saiyan 2 and 3 anymore, but if he had this base that saves a lot of stamina, why even bother going even Super Saiyan? And why didn't anyone comment about Goku's base form being massively stronger against Hit compared to Frost? What are the visual cues since Goku didn't power up against Hit before they fought? Why isn't this super base not in any video games, besides Heroes, where every other form the Saiyans have are. They can't just put a bright aura around them like Ultimate Gohan.

No, the pamphlet states that if Goku and Vegeta - by virtue of being "god-like Saiyans" - turn Super Saiyan "they'll turn Blue". It's as clear-cut as it gets. Again, I'm not exactly arguing for the pamphlet to be accurate; it was arguably written with the intent to reiterate Goku's words in the movie, not to provide some groundbreaking clarification. I wouldn't rush in stating we must deem it valid for Super as well. However, that's just what it's supposed to say.

I'm with you on the fact that the existence of a super-powerful base along with a much weaker base would raise some questions for the anime, regardless. My stance is still that they set up some nearly unescapable contradictions or poor writing with or without it, though.
I tend to approach this from an out-of-universe point-of-view. In other words, at the moment I'm inclined to believe they really meant for Goku's base to be that strong at some point, but that afterwards they gradually dropped the concept and without bothering to explain. Perhaps the manga's existence and Toyotaro providing material or ideas for the anime may have contributed in influencing the outlook of the production team.

If I had to reconcile it in-universe? Then I'd really argue that Goku had a super-powerful base he used for some time and then he gradually abandoned it, much like he would skip Super Saiyan 2 in some DBZ movies. After all, Goku is a clever fighter but he hasn't ever embodied the "rational combatant" type. Both he and Vegeta are reckless by definition, and will never fight as efficiently as possible if it helps them get an extra kick out of the battle.

[supersaiyan1993]

power levels in the anime is way too inconsistent. i think we should all just ignore it and enjoy the show. like for example the recent 17 vs ssb goku. clearly goku wasnt going all out and niether was 17, but the obvious stronger one is goku. the anime only had goku turn ssb to hype up 17's strength.

the manga on the hand is far more consistent which is one of reasons why i prefer it over the anime. I'm sure 17 strength would be around kid gohan ss2 level.

heres i think some of the characters power levels are.

ssb vegito> beerus > ssb goku = ssb vegeta > hit > ssg goku = ssg vegeta > golden frieza > ultimate gohan > ss3 goku = ss2 (further power up) trunks = ss2 (rage) vegeta > majin buu > ss2 goku = 17 = piccolo > ss1 goku > 18

[HeroR]

No, the pamphlet states that if Goku and Vegeta - by virtue of being "god-like Saiyans" - turn Super Saiyan "they'll turn Blue". It's as clear-cut as it gets. Again, I'm not exactly arguing for the pamphlet to be accurate; it was arguably written with the intent to reiterate Goku's words in the movie, not to provide some groundbreaking clarification. I wouldn't rush in stating we must deem it valid for Super as well. However, that's just what it's supposed to say.

I'm with you on the fact that the existence of a super-powerful base along with a much weaker base would raise some questions for the anime, regardless. My stance is still that they set up some nearly unescapable contradictions or poor writing with or without it, though.
I tend to approach this from an out-of-universe point-of-view. In other words, at the moment I'm inclined to believe they really meant for Goku's base to be that strong at some point, but that afterwards they gradually dropped the concept and without bothering to explain. Perhaps the manga's existence and Toyotaro providing material or ideas for the anime may have contributed in influencing the outlook of the production team.

If I had to reconcile it in-universe? Then I'd really argue that Goku had a super-powerful base he used for some time and then he gradually abandoned it, much like he would skip Super Saiyan 2 in some DBZ movies. After all, Goku was clever but hasn't ever embodied the "rational fighter" type. He's reckless by definition, and will never fight as efficiently as possible because he prefers his battles that way.

The bold is the key word here. Since their base is up to par with Super Saiyan God that is why it's called a god-like base. And the writing doesn't say anything about turning this base off or whatever to get golden Super Saiyan. And it really doesn't just repeat what was said in Battle of Gods.

This isn't poor writing. Poor writing is having this super powerful base form that is never acknowledge to exist. They had the perfect chance to show this two-base form when Goku fought Hit. Nothing was said that Goku's base form jumped up in power. Hit mocked him.

The manga haven't effected the anime, otherwise we would be seeing Super Saiyan God again by now like some fan speculated. And something like this isn't drop with no explanation just like Vegetto having a time limit wasn't drop with no explanation.

Why the heck would abandoned it? It is basically his version of Ultimate. Why the heck would he abandoned for Super Saiyan forms that drains energy? This is from Goku, the same person who invented Mastered Super Saiyan. Saying that Goku "embodied the "rational fighter" type. He's reckless by definition, and will never fight as efficiently as possible" is a lie since again Master Super Saiyan. Him abandoning this super efficient ultra powerful base is OOC since Goku was willing to get pounded by Hit to save stamina, yet you're telling me that he suddenly can't be bothered now? This makes no sense.

power levels in the anime is way too inconsistent. i think we should all just ignore it and enjoy the show. like for example the recent 17 vs ssb goku. clearly goku wasnt going all out and niether was 17, but the obvious stronger one is goku. the anime only had goku turn ssb to hype up 17's strength.

the manga on the hand is far more consistent which is one of reasons why i prefer it over the anime. I'm sure 17 strength would be around kid gohan ss2 level.

heres i think some of the characters power levels are.

ssb vegito> beerus > ssb goku = ssb vegeta > hit > ssg goku = ssg vegeta > golden frieza > ultimate gohan > ss3 goku = ss2 (further power up) trunks = ss2 (rage) vegeta > majin buu > ss2 goku = 17 = piccolo > ss1 goku > 18

Really? From LampLanguage, a poster on Reddit:

SSB ramps overall power level which in DBZ decides your speed, defence, and power. it's not like SSBeefcake mode that only ramps up power at the cost of speed. SSG Vegeta wouldn't be able to even get close to SSR black, the only explanation is that Vegeta trained so hard that both his SSG and SSB form surpassed black. Thus it's still just about being stronger and the new tech Vegeta developed just helps him stomp with less stamina drain when he's already stomping.

It also makes less sense in the manga Canon, because in the manga the majority of SSB's stamina drain is transforming into it, not maintenance. In the tournament arc Vegeta went SSB for a second and flicked cabbage, and the drain was so bad his SSB power was cut in half next time he transformed against hit.

And my take, how the heck can anyone claim the manga is 'more consistent' when it had Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta beat up Super Saiyan 1/2 Black when we saw Super Saiyan 2 Trunks get stomped by base form Black, and Super Saiyan 2 Trunks is evenly matched with Super Saiyan 3 Goku?

[LowRyder2005]

Why the heck would abandoned it? It is basically his version of Ultimate. Why the heck would he abandoned for Super Saiyan forms that drains energy? This is from Goku, the same person who invented Mastered Super Saiyan. Saying that Goku "embodied the "rational fighter" type. He's reckless by definition, and will never fight as efficiently as possible" is a lie since again Master Super Saiyan. Him abandoning this super efficient ultra powerful base is OOC since Goku was willing to get pounded by Hit to save stamina, yet you're telling me that he suddenly can't be bothered now? This makes no sense.

So we're getting into some "I know this character's personality better than you" debate? If so you can count me out of it, but curb down on the super-defensiveness just because my interpretation of Goku's antics doesn't fit with yours.

The bold is the key word here. Since their base is up to par with Super Saiyan God that is why it's called a god-like base. And the writing doesn't say anything about turning this base off or whatever to get golden Super Saiyan. And it really doesn't just repeat what was said in Battle of Gods.

I don't get if (and in that case, how) this is supposed to contradict the statement. The excerpt already goes against that because as long as they have the power of a god, they turn Blue; which yes, it already means that the golden Super Saiyan is "locked out" under those specific conditions.

This isn't poor writing. Poor writing is having this super powerful base form that is never acknowledge to exist.

... Your mileage may vary?

[HeroR]

Why the heck would abandoned it? It is basically his version of Ultimate. Why the heck would he abandoned for Super Saiyan forms that drains energy? This is from Goku, the same person who invented Mastered Super Saiyan. Saying that Goku "embodied the "rational fighter" type. He's reckless by definition, and will never fight as efficiently as possible" is a lie since again Master Super Saiyan. Him abandoning this super efficient ultra powerful base is OOC since Goku was willing to get pounded by Hit to save stamina, yet you're telling me that he suddenly can't be bothered now? This makes no sense.

So we're getting into some "I know this character's personality better than you" debate? If so you can count me out of it, but curb down on the super-defensiveness just because my interpretation of Goku's antics doesn't fit with yours.

The bold is the key word here. Since their base is up to par with Super Saiyan God that is why it's called a god-like base. And the writing doesn't say anything about turning this base off or whatever to get golden Super Saiyan. And it really doesn't just repeat what was said in Battle of Gods.

I don't get if (and in that case, how) this is supposed to contradict the statement. The excerpt already goes against that because as long as they have that power of a god, they turn Blue; which yes, it already means that the golden Super Saiyan is "locked out" under those specific conditions.

This isn't poor writing. Poor writing is having this super powerful base form that is never acknowledge to exist.

... Your mileage may vary?

it called, studying history. Goku mastered Super Saiyan to save energy instead of using power. So why would he abandoned a great energy saving form that is more powerful than anything he has outside of Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan? Because he's reckless? Being reckless doesn't equal to not using a powerful and efficient form. And why would Vegeta do the exact same thing?

It was never said Super Saiyan is locked out. That is just the way you're reading it. And why would this Saiyan Beyond God that is just normal ki turn dye their hair blue, but they can't used a normal Super Saiyan? What is special about this ki that makes it impossible?

What a cop-out answer.

[LowRyder2005]

Why the heck would abandoned it? It is basically his version of Ultimate. Why the heck would he abandoned for Super Saiyan forms that drains energy? This is from Goku, the same person who invented Mastered Super Saiyan. Saying that Goku "embodied the "rational fighter" type. He's reckless by definition, and will never fight as efficiently as possible" is a lie since again Master Super Saiyan. Him abandoning this super efficient ultra powerful base is OOC since Goku was willing to get pounded by Hit to save stamina, yet you're telling me that he suddenly can't be bothered now? This makes no sense.

So we're getting into some "I know this character's personality better than you" debate? If so you can count me out of it, but curb down on the super-defensiveness just because my interpretation of Goku's antics doesn't fit with yours.

The bold is the key word here. Since their base is up to par with Super Saiyan God that is why it's called a god-like base. And the writing doesn't say anything about turning this base off or whatever to get golden Super Saiyan. And it really doesn't just repeat what was said in Battle of Gods.

I don't get if (and in that case, how) this is supposed to contradict the statement. The excerpt already goes against that because as long as they have that power of a god, they turn Blue; which yes, it already means that the golden Super Saiyan is "locked out" under those specific conditions.

This isn't poor writing. Poor writing is having this super powerful base form that is never acknowledge to exist.

... Your mileage may vary?

it called, studying history. Goku mastered Super Saiyan to save energy instead of using power. So why would he abandoned a great energy saving form that is more powerful than anything he has outside of Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan? Because he's reckless? Being reckless doesn't equal to not using a powerful and efficient form. And why would Vegeta do the exact same thing?

It was never said Super Saiyan is locked out. That is just the way you're reading it. And why would this Saiyan Beyond God that is just normal ki turn dye their hair blue, but they can't used a normal Super Saiyan? What is special about this ki that makes it impossible?

What a cop-out answer.

The article states they don't turn regular Super Saiyan already. It's a direct consequence of stating that they turn Blue when they turn "Super Saiyan". If they turn Super Saiyan they now go Blue. They may turn Super Saiyan if they're not wielding the godly-power, so either they can suppress it or they can't turn Super Saiyan. No interpretations here, one is simply reporting the article's words.
If the article's implications gets your and some other guy's panties up in a bunch you may freely theorize that the "god-like" Saiyans are able to, I dunno, suppress their "godly nature" but are able to keep their "godly power". That being said, the article's very unambiguously states that under normal circumstances the Saiyans "beyond God" turn Blue.

It's not a cop-out answer. I simply don't see any reason in debating your interpretation of a character when you start by saying mine is "wrong", a "lie" or a product of sheer ignorance (which if anything is pretty funny, in that it's just so hyperbolic). I don't think I've advocated anything inherently absurd when saying Goku is reckless and that he will handicap himself as long as he can get more enjoyment out of a fight.

If you disagree or you see Goku differently is fine to me, talking about "lies" or as if I was "someone who hasn't done his homework" looks pretty over-the-top. At bare minimum, it's certainly not the way I'd make anyone interested in having a discussion about something as ephemeral as "personality traits".

[ZombieVito]

Super Saiyan 2 Trunks was never a match against Goku. All Goku did was blocked and catch Trunks' fists in mid-attack. By this logic Krillin is a match for Super Saiyan since he actually made Goku move. Heck, Roshi made Goku move more than Trunks. Skinny Buu did more than Super Saiyan 2 Trunks. How can you say they were evenly match?

Yes, he was.

See the manga fight. Goku is blocking with his finger Trunks sword attacks and Whis still called Trunks the strongest.

Catching Trunks fists means nothing in comparison. Trunks was also not going all out.

[Marlowe89]

It was never said Super Saiyan is locked out.

It didn't mention "Super Saiyan is locked out" word-for-word, but as LowRyder2005 said, it did specifically state that when Saiyans with Godly power change into Super Saiyan, the result is Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan (or Super Saiyan Blue). It also stated that the two Saiyans have "gained control" over this power, insinuating that it's something more than just a level of strength.

The reason that people have been placing so much emphasis on this blurb lately is mainly because its phrasing certainly implies that Super Saiyan Blue is a tertium quid by which both the Godly power they use in base and the act of transforming into a Super Saiyan gives rise to.

[HeroR]

It was never said Super Saiyan is locked out.

It didn't mention "Super Saiyan is locked out" word-for-word, but as LowRyder2005 said, it did specifically state that when Saiyans with Godly power change into Super Saiyan, the result is Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan (or Super Saiyan Blue). It also stated that the two Saiyans have "gained control" over this power, insinuating that it's something more than just a level of strength.

The reason that people have been placing so much emphasis on this blurb lately is mainly because its phrasing certainly implies that Super Saiyan Blue is a tertium quid by which both the Godly power they use in base and the act of transforming into a Super Saiyan gives rise to.

But it doesn't explain why this ki is special and Goku supposedly can't used golden Super Saiyan with it. It isn't God ki, so what it?

[HeroR]

Super Saiyan 2 Trunks was never a match against Goku. All Goku did was blocked and catch Trunks' fists in mid-attack. By this logic Krillin is a match for Super Saiyan since he actually made Goku move. Heck, Roshi made Goku move more than Trunks. Skinny Buu did more than Super Saiyan 2 Trunks. How can you say they were evenly match?

Yes, he was.

See the manga fight. Goku is blocking with his finger Trunks sword attacks and Whis still called Trunks the strongest.

Catching Trunks fists means nothing in comparison. Trunks was also not going all out.

The manga and the anime have two different power scales so you can't just used one to justify the others. The manga has Super Saiyan 2 Trunks even with Super Saiyan 3 Goku, Vegeta's Super Saiyan 2 being a match for Super Saiyan 1/2 Black, and Goku and Vegeta both using Super Saiyan God. The manga also has Future Zamasu weaker than Trunks while anime Zamasu can trade blows with Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku.

Goku did nothing against Trunks. He didn't even bother to dodge. So in the anime, Super Saiyan 2 Trunks isn't even with Super Saiyan 2 Goku.

[GodKaio-Ken]

Super Saiyan 2 Trunks was never a match against Goku. All Goku did was blocked and catch Trunks' fists in mid-attack. By this logic Krillin is a match for Super Saiyan since he actually made Goku move. Heck, Roshi made Goku move more than Trunks. Skinny Buu did more than Super Saiyan 2 Trunks. How can you say they were evenly match?

Yes, he was.

See the manga fight. Goku is blocking with his finger Trunks sword attacks and Whis still called Trunks the strongest.

Catching Trunks fists means nothing in comparison. Trunks was also not going all out.

The manga and the anime have two different power scales so you can't just used one to justify the others. The manga has Super Saiyan 2 Trunks even with Super Saiyan 3 Goku, Vegeta's Super Saiyan 2 being a match for Super Saiyan 1/2 Black, and Goku and Vegeta both using Super Saiyan God. The manga also has Future Zamasu weaker than Trunks while anime Zamasu can trade blows with Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku.

Goku did nothing against Trunks. He didn't even bother to dodge. So in the anime, Super Saiyan 2 Trunks isn't even with Super Saiyan 2 Goku.

I agree with everything except Future Zamasu. Even in the anime I never got the impression he was nearly as strong as Goku, Vegeta or Black.