Did Super regress Goku's character development?

[Lord Beerus]

I'm actually getting kinda tired of the whole "Goku is an idiot" label that people have been slapping on Super with his characterisation. I've only really come across one instance where Goku, in my opinion, showed a distinct lack of intelligence in Super and that was when he couldn't tell that was Beerus wearing a Monaka suit in EP42. But in that circumstance, it was 100% played for laughs and pure filler. Him forgetting stuff like the senzu and and seal for the Mafuba jar... it's just a case of, well, forgetting things in a race against time. I mean, are we really gonna start labelling people stupid if they forget important things? It's like locking your keys inside your car or leaving a bag of groceries on the bus or forgetting important documents you're meant to take to school or work, at home, on the same day. Shit like that just happens. It's a common lapse in concentration that occurs to everyone at one stage of their life, even if they're not in a rush. It's happened to me, you and everyone on this forum at one point in their life. That shouldn't mean you're stupid. Again, forgetting something important does not qualify as a display of lacking of intelligence or being stupid. I really can't stress this enough. Because if we're going by that logic, we're all fucking idiots.

Well thank you for bringing up one instance about Monaka, much appreciated. In addition to the other instance of him forgetting a seal that would've been the key to saving Trunk's future, so yes it was exceedingly dim-witted of him to forget something like that. He should have made sure he had everything in order before he went off. Which makes me bring up another instance of him wanting to go back to the future to fight Black & Zamasu; literally right after he got thrashed by them, without thinking of a plan. Completely the polar opposite of his Z-self, and when he did come up with a plan, it was eat a whole bunch of senzu beans. He wasn't joking either, he was 100% dead serious. More and more as Super continues, Goku feels more out of place each episode. In episode 76 of Super, he couldn't even understand the underlying concept of Krillin reason to keep training to protect his family. Goku's simplistic view of thinking in that situation is borderline insulting. To not only him as a character, but their relationship in general. Krillin a person he's known and fought with for years- decades even, yet couldn't even show a little bit of compassion and understanding. The sad thing is he said the very same thing in the first episode of Super.

Even if the sealed Zamasu, there was nothing provent Goku Black from just smashing the jar open. So the whole mafuba seal deal is just a non-factor at this stage. Goku is rarely comes ups with a plan. It's always a case just train and hope for the best.

In EP76, Goku couldn't understand why Krillin wanted to bail out on the opportunity to get stronger, especially with how much Android 18 and his own daughter remonstrated him for getting so weak. And Krillin explained that getting stronger worth worth the emotional trauma he was going through in the Forest of Fear.

And any kind of strategy Goku come up with relies on a hell of a lot of luck and good fortune rather what him taking into account what could, couldn't, definitely will and definitely won't happen. Like an actual strategist or planner would. The only kind of plans and strategies Goku comes up with is in regards to how he can become stronger. If anything the most recent arc in Super has show Goku is gaining a better perspective of just the kind of fighters he has on his team for the Tournament of Power. And with every member on his team he fights and spars with, in the end, and he's constantly re-evaluating himself and thinking of different ways in how to approach the tournament and what would be the best course of action to take to win the tournament and save his universe. In this arc, he basically re-writing his strategy and plan for how to win the tournament.

[TheMikado]

And any kind of strategy Goku come up with relies on a hell of a lot of luck and good fortune rather what him taking into account what could, couldn't, definitely will and definitely won't happen. Like an actual strategist or planner would. The only kind of plans and strategies Goku comes up with is in regards to how he can become stronger. If anything the most recent arc in Super has show Goku is gaining a better perspective of just the kind of fighters he has on his team for the Tournament of Power. And with every member on his team he fights and spars with, in the end, and he's constantly re-evaluating himself and thinking of different ways in how to approach the tournament and what would be the best course of action to take to win the tournament and save his universe. In this arc, he basically re-writing his strategy and plan for how to win the tournament.

This isn't true at all. I'm literally watching the entire Buu saga in Japanese and English. When Goku first approaches Buu and Babidi he uses the same exact mind manipulation that he attempted to use on Black and Zamasu in the manga. He essentially asked Buu why he was following Babidis orders if he was so much stronger than him as a means to get them to turn on each other He tried he same exact trick on Black and Zamasu in the Super manga. That's the Goku we know. He's no blubbering idiot and actually understands concepts of psychology, basic math, and time beyond anything that has to do with fighting.

[SaiyanGod117]

Even if the sealed Zamasu, there was nothing provent Goku Black from just smashing the jar open. So the whole mafuba seal deal is just a non-factor at this stage. Goku is rarely comes ups with a plan. It's always a case just train and hope for the best.

The moment Zamasu would've been sealed, the tides of victory would of significantly turned in their favor. The jar could have easily been hidden by Trunks or Bulma, Black wouldn't have been able to do anything especially when he's up three against one. As for Goku rarely coming up with a plan, training is the plan and even if you don't consinder that a plan. In Z it a least shows he evaluates the problem and his options, before jumping headlong back into battle.

In EP76, Goku couldn't understand why Krillin wanted to bail out on the opportunity to get stronger, especially with how much Android 18 and his own daughter remonstrated him for getting so weak. And Krillin explained that getting stronger worth worth the emotional trauma he was going through in the Forest of Fear.

No, at the end of the episode Goku couldn't understand the simple concept of getting stronger to protect his family or being prepared for an oncoming threat. This is literally what he said word from word when Krillin explained that to him "I don't understand what you said at all." When he literally said the very same thing to Goten in the first episode of Super.

And any kind of strategy Goku come up with relies on a hell of a lot of luck and good fortune rather what him taking into account what could, couldn't, definitely will and definitely won't happen. Like an actual strategist or planner would. The only kind of plans and strategies Goku comes up with is in regards to how he can become stronger. If anything the most recent arc in Super has show Goku is gaining a better perspective of just the kind of fighters he has on his team for the Tournament of Power. And with every member on his team he fights and spars with, in the end, and he's constantly re-evaluating himself and thinking of different ways in how to approach the tournament and what would be the best course of action to take to win the tournament and save his universe. In this arc, he basically re-writing his strategy and plan for how to win the tournament.

I don't remember any of Goku's plans relying on luck and I'm sure strategist and planner's don't rely luck on either. They either have a plan with likely chance of success or in the proximity of it; like actual strategist or planners. Some might have a little luck involved, but he wouldn't consinder it unless had a way of actually succeeding. Just like he knew fusion wouldn't have a chance against Beerus or that he might not be able to beat Cell. That's why he had a contingency plan(Gohan), and really this arc show's how poorly written Goku can be. All the things he should have known from the start, he constantly being spouted as a fighting genius. Yet he didn't know he could be ganged up on in a Battle Royale of all things.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

I'm actually getting kinda tired of the whole "Goku is an idiot" label that people have been slapping on Super with his characterisation. I've only really come across one instance where Goku, in my opinion, showed a distinct lack of intelligence in Super and that was when he couldn't tell that was Beerus wearing a Monaka suit in EP42. But in that circumstance, it was 100% played for laughs and pure filler. Him forgetting stuff like the senzu and and seal for the Mafuba jar... it's just a case of, well, forgetting things in a race against time. I mean, are we really gonna start labelling people stupid if they forget important things? It's like locking your keys inside your car or leaving a bag of groceries on the bus or forgetting important documents you're meant to take to school or work, at home, on the same day. Shit like that just happens. It's a common lapse in concentration that occurs to everyone at one stage of their life, even if they're not in a rush. It's happened to me, you and everyone on this forum at one point in their life. That shouldn't mean you're stupid. Again, forgetting something important does not qualify as a display of lacking of intelligence or being stupid. I really can't stress this enough. Because if we're going by that logic, we're all fucking idiots.

Well thank you for bringing up one instance about Monaka, much appreciated. In addition to the other instance of him forgetting a seal that would've been the key to saving Trunk's future, so yes it was exceedingly dim-witted of him to forget something like that. He should have made sure he had everything in order before he went off. Which makes me bring up another instance of him wanting to go back to the future to fight Black & Zamasu; literally right after he got thrashed by them, without thinking of a plan. Completely the polar opposite of his Z-self, and when he did come up with a plan, it was eat a whole bunch of senzu beans. He wasn't joking either, he was 100% dead serious. More and more as Super continues, Goku feels more out of place each episode. In episode 76 of Super, he couldn't even understand the underlying concept of Krillin reason to keep training to protect his family. Goku's simplistic view of thinking in that situation is borderline insulting. To not only him as a character, but their relationship in general. Krillin a person he's known and fought with for years- decades even, yet couldn't even show a little bit of compassion and understanding. The sad thing is he said the very same thing in the first episode of Super.

I think the over all lighter tone of Super is what is inevitably making Goku seem dumber than necessary, because his ignorance (or dissonance now) is the basis of a joke or plot-device now at the expense of his characterization. The Toyotaro Manga though doesn't do this to Goku thankfully, he was the one that added up Zamasu being Goku black pretty easily, and he didn't just "forget" the seal for the Jar, he just picked up a size-similar Coupon that he didn't know was not the seal. Its fair mistakes like that, which seem to level out the impact they have, as opposed to Goku just being too dumb to know better. Now they've made Goku so selfish that he is uncharacteristically apathetic, which wasn't even characteristically like him in Z either. The thing that irks me most about the "Goku is supposed to be stupid" argument, is that its often used to hand-wave away bad writing or justify a forced plot device.

[sintzu]

Overall it did, he's just a copy of Luffy now but with a lower IQ.

[TheMikado]

Overall it did, he's just a copy of Luffy now but with a lower IQ.

Well he's more in line with modern popular shonen characters in general.
The fact that someone makes a new thread every week about this isn't a coincidence.

[sintzu]

Well he's more in line with modern popular shonen characters in general.

That's the problem, Goku was always the base for modern Shonen heroes but for some reason they've decided to copy his copies.

Why not just write him the way he was written in the original ? there's no reason to fix what isn't broken.

[Chuquita]

The two biggest changes to Gokû post-Super that I've noticed are things that seem to borrow from modern shounen protagonists; he's more high-energy and absent-minded compared to how he was in DB and Z.

Look at lower-energy Gokû compared to high-energy Luffy in Toriyama and Oda's Cross Epoch. Gokû's low-key cheerful while Luffy is hyperactively enthusiastic.

That said I don't know if it's a regression so much as a change if it's something that didn't exist in the character prior.

My in-universe explanation is he's become absent-minded because there's a lot of stuff grabbing his attention/on his mind and he's having trouble keeping focus. The high-energy's harder to pinpoint from that perspective.

[Doctor.]

The two biggest changes to Gokû post-Super that I've noticed are things that seem to borrow from modern shounen protagonists; he's more high-energy and absent-minded compared to how he was in DB and Z.

Look at lower-energy Gokû compared to high-energy Luffy in Toriyama and Oda's Cross Epoch. Gokû's low-key cheerful while Luffy is hyperactively enthusiastic.

That said I don't know if it's a regression so much as a change if it's something that didn't exist in the character prior.

Well, Goku is lower-energy compared to Luffy in the Toriko x One Piece x Dragon Ball Z crossover.

[Chuquita]

The two biggest changes to Gokû post-Super that I've noticed are things that seem to borrow from modern shounen protagonists; he's more high-energy and absent-minded compared to how he was in DB and Z.

Look at lower-energy Gokû compared to high-energy Luffy in Toriyama and Oda's Cross Epoch. Gokû's low-key cheerful while Luffy is hyperactively enthusiastic.

That said I don't know if it's a regression so much as a change if it's something that didn't exist in the character prior.

Well, Goku is lower-energy compared to Luffy in the Toriko x One Piece x Dragon Ball Z crossover.

That's true and another good example. Gokû's not the loudest and most excitable character in the room; I think some of the staff on Super forget that.

[Godszgift]

I actually like Db super goku more than the dbz goku tbh. He's so... wild and free it's interesting. He might be the main source of conflict in the future. He's already partially the reason the other universes are being destroyed... so nah i say he hasn't regressed at all.

[Lord Beerus]

And any kind of strategy Goku come up with relies on a hell of a lot of luck and good fortune rather what him taking into account what could, couldn't, definitely will and definitely won't happen. Like an actual strategist or planner would. The only kind of plans and strategies Goku comes up with is in regards to how he can become stronger. If anything the most recent arc in Super has show Goku is gaining a better perspective of just the kind of fighters he has on his team for the Tournament of Power. And with every member on his team he fights and spars with, in the end, and he's constantly re-evaluating himself and thinking of different ways in how to approach the tournament and what would be the best course of action to take to win the tournament and save his universe. In this arc, he basically re-writing his strategy and plan for how to win the tournament.

This isn't true at all. I'm literally watching the entire Buu saga in Japanese and English. When Goku first approaches Buu and Babidi he uses the same exact mind manipulation that he attempted to use on Black and Zamasu in the manga. He essentially asked Buu why he was following Babidis orders if he was so much stronger than him as a means to get them to turn on each other He tried he same exact trick on Black and Zamasu in the Super manga. That's the Goku we know. He's no blubbering idiot and actually understands concepts of psychology, basic math, and time beyond anything that has to do with fighting.

He's far from a blubbering idiot in Super. He's show to able to work and trade very well as a vegetable farmer, and the test prior to the Universe 6/7 tournament shows that he has at the very least average intelligence considering he passed it. And the two part episode with Krillin in the Forest of Fear shows he has a grasp on metal and physiological aspects as he figured out how to defeat the mirages of the villains by clearing and calming his mind. Not to mention his fights with in the Champa arc, his rematch against Hit and Zen Exhibition tch(es) show he is still very cunning and strategic fighter.

[Captain Strawberry]

I'm going to try to say something a bit different. i think he was probably wiser (recklessness aside) in Z/

[ABED]

Goku's the same as he always was in Z, it's simply the stakes that are higher.

[Rory]

I always saw late Dragon Ball Gokuu as the character having mellowed with age, as we all do. He had time to think a bit more, even being a little philosophical and self-reflective at times.
Super has almost seemed to de-age him, he's had a sort of wide-eyed curious side of him brought back and as Chuquita mentioned, is more 'high-energy'.
Gokuu had this element of his personality drastically reduced in late arcs of the series, so it does feel like a step-back.
I feel like if Toriyama kept writing the character straight after the Boo arc he would've kept this element of continuity, but because of the gap we've got a Gokuu which is sort of a culmination of old and new, seemingly in an attempt to find the 'core' of the character... which would work maybe for a reboot, but considering we're continuing straight after the Boo arc? I can see why it ruffles a few feathers.

I can see Gokuu in the show for sure, but I also feel like we've also lost an element of the character people may have become quite attached to.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

I always saw late Dragon Ball Gokuu as the character having mellowed with age, as we all do. He had time to think a bit more, even being a little philosophical and self-reflective at times.
Super has almost seemed to de-age him, he's had a sort of wide-eyed curious side of him brought back and as Chuquita mentioned, is more 'high-energy'.
Gokuu had this element of his personality drastically reduced in late arcs of the series, so it does feel like a step-back.
I feel like if Toriyama kept writing the character straight after the Boo arc he would've kept this element of continuity, but because of the gap we've got a Gokuu which is sort of a culmination of old and new, seemingly in an attempt to find the 'core' of the character... which would work maybe for a reboot, but considering we're continuing straight after the Boo arc? I can see why it ruffles a few feathers.

I can see Gokuu in the show for sure, but I also feel like we've also lost an element of the character people may have become quite attached to.

Goku personality wise was like this in the Cell Games arc, because he did want to challenge Cell for the thrill of the fight, but Super seems to exaggerate this to where it goes above what he was then. Goku in that arc was relaxed and carefree because he was confident in his own plan, even if he didn't think out all the scenarios in them. Goku got angry, he reacted appropriately the whole time when he knew he made a mistake (or thought he did) and took responsibility at the end, apologizing for it which was where his maturity should have come into play. Super just seems to erase all of that and just have Goku mess around and left oblivious to why people get mad at him for it. If Super Goku was in the Cell games he'd probably enjoy the Cell jrs. beating him up or forget the Senzu beans.

Now of all times he wants to recruit Freeza of all people, whom he has gotten chummy with in his mind and can't comprehend the fact Freeza hates him and wants to kill him on a sociopath level. Its like if Goku just treated Kid Buu like an actual child just because he looked smaller. Super's Goku would have gotten killed in instantly when he blew up the Earth.

[precita]

Goku is best friends with Freeza now, so his development hasn't just regressed, it's literally jumped the shark.

[Metalwario64]

I always saw late Dragon Ball Gokuu as the character having mellowed with age, as we all do. He had time to think a bit more, even being a little philosophical and self-reflective at times.
Super has almost seemed to de-age him, he's had a sort of wide-eyed curious side of him brought back and as Chuquita mentioned, is more 'high-energy'.
Gokuu had this element of his personality drastically reduced in late arcs of the series, so it does feel like a step-back.
I feel like if Toriyama kept writing the character straight after the Boo arc he would've kept this element of continuity, but because of the gap we've got a Gokuu which is sort of a culmination of old and new, seemingly in an attempt to find the 'core' of the character... which would work maybe for a reboot, but considering we're continuing straight after the Boo arc? I can see why it ruffles a few feathers.

I can see Gokuu in the show for sure, but I also feel like we've also lost an element of the character people may have become quite attached to.

This is basically my point. I view it as Goku trying to be more responsible (and it's pretty clear, since he wanted Gohan to defeat Cell, but he realized he was being reckless there as well), and especially in the the Buu arc where he outright says that the others should be the ones to protect the Earth (which goes against what he said to 17 about not putting much thought into protecting the Earth):

Spoiler:

What Goku said to 17 was pretty accurate all the way until the Android arc, but I believe that around the time he realized the mistake that he made with making Gohan fight that he realized how reckless he had been, and when he gave his life to try and stop Cell, he told Gohan that he was sorry for "selfishly doing whatever he wanted". The Buu arc continues to go on with what he told Gohan, because he tries to get out of fighting Majin Vegeta and Buu, and he even states that he wants someone to be able to protect the Earth now, which is more thought than he put into it previously throughout the series. Super Goku would have wanted Buu to be revived, and he would have gone all out against him when he showed off Super Saiyan 3.

The thing is though, every time I state this, I feel like people take it as an invite to accuse me of considering Goku to be like FUNimation's superhero version of the character who goes around stopping crimes and saving peoples lives. I never, ever said that. I'm not even saying that what Goku does in the Buu arc is how the character's always been, so please, nobody accuse me of that, okay? My point is simply that by the Buu arc, he started showing more responsibility, even if it didn't always work out so well. He was being more responsible than he was when he let Gero make the Androids, which is where Super has brought the character back to.

Now of all times he wants to recruit Freeza of all people, whom he has gotten chummy with in his mind and can't comprehend the fact Freeza hates him and wants to kill him on a sociopath level. Its like if Goku just treated Kid Buu like an actual child just because he looked smaller. Super's Goku would have gotten killed in instantly when he blew up the Earth.

Goku is best friends with Freeza now, so his development hasn't just regressed, it's literally jumped the shark.

Woah... woah... What? I've heard the leak about recruiting Freeza, but has it been revealed that Goku has these feelings towards him?

[Nejishiki]

Now of all times he wants to recruit Freeza of all people, whom he has gotten chummy with in his mind and can't comprehend the fact Freeza hates him and wants to kill him on a sociopath level. Its like if Goku just treated Kid Buu like an actual child just because he looked smaller. Super's Goku would have gotten killed in instantly when he blew up the Earth.

Goku is best friends with Freeza now, so his development hasn't just regressed, it's literally jumped the shark.

Woah... woah... What? I've heard the leak about recruiting Freeza, but has it been revealed that Goku has these feelings towards him?

It's an unsubstantiated assumption. There's no information present concerning Goku's feelings about Freeza outside of his Resurrection F commentary. The preview merely described a suggested body to quickly replace Boo. No one has the Jump in knowledge for character reactions outside of Goku ignoring objections, presumably pressed for time.

[Raizenx28]

I don't know Goku was kinda the same after the cell saga to me except with more transformations