"Dragon Ball Super" Series Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

[Lapislettuce]

If they really wanted to get Trunks, they easily could. Kaioshin has a Time Ring, so instead of scouting unseen planets he could just make a trip to the timeline he lives in, not to mention that after getting his ass saved twice by Goku/Vegeta/Gohan, he kinda owes them.

It's probably for the best they aren't bothering him, though. The guy deserves SOME rest. Not to mention Beerus or Whis aren't probably going to allow time travel shenanigans after the last mess.

I wasn't a fan of future Trunks returning in the first place,i thought we already have a Trunks and they should just focus on him.

[TheMikado]

I thought about Trunks and....I think he's been through enough.

The guy has fought hard for years and lost almost everything and one he cared for. In the end he failed. Would it really be fair to make the poor guy fight in a tournament where he could end up watching everything and everyone he cares for in this time be destroyed to. And possibly himself, leaving Mai all alone?

I think that would be to much to ask, Hell I bet Vegeta and Bulma would not let Goku do that for those very reasons. Trunks has been fighting the good fighter longer then anyone else on the team save Roshi and Goku and he lost so much already. He deserves to be left alone in what little peace he can find with Mai.

This STILL pisses me off and opens old wounds because of all the crap he's been through and his crappy existence right now where even that is about to be taken from him. Like if Trunks found out that they held a tournament of power for the existence of the universe AND that Goku picked Roshi of all damn people AND they lost, like how crappy would that be??? This is really a sore spot for me so number one they better not lose and make Future Trunks miserable life already worse, especially when he has that sentimental moment with Gohan at the end to make it seem like even all they crap he's been through was worth it for someone else and to possibly have that taken from him too.. like I want them to let him die a miserable old man at this point but it seems like they can't even let the things he loves go one day without their existence being jeopardized him being helpless to stop it. / End angry rant.

- Trunks is my 2nd favorite character so I'm still not over that damn ending

[Kanassa]

Hell I bet Vegeta and Bulma would not let Goku do that for those very reasons. Trunks has been fighting the good fighter longer then anyone else on the team save Roshi and Goku and he lost so much already. He deserves to be left alone in what little peace he can find with Mai.

Bulma, maybe. Vegeta though? He would encourage Trunks to fight in the tournament (Especially considering that the Super Dragonballs could help him a lot). One of the big points of Trunks's arc, as both Vegeta and Zamasu note, is that yet again he had to go to everyone else to fix his problems. Vegeta, by the end of the arc, wanted Trunks to promise that he would get stronger than Vegeta. He doesn't want Trunks to settle down and be lazy, like Gohan, he wants Trunks to train so hard that he never has to rely on others to fight for him again.

Plus, he won't be left alone to find peace with Mai. Because the main timeline is the only timeline where Zeno decides he'll spare one of the universes.

But Trunks time was just fine, Zen-Oh never destroyed any universes in that future. If what Black and Zamasu said was true all the universes are safe and sound.

While Goku suggesting the tournament did not really put the other universes in danger and gave 1 a chance to survive, that whole mortel level rating only exists because of Goku bringing Future Zeno-Oh to his time and letting them meet. They came up with it together and its clear that its something Zen=Oh never implemented on his own. So Goku did f##k everyone over just not in the way everyone assumed.

That's not what the story shows us, as specifically pointed out by Whis: Zeno was always planning to erase all of these universes, but Goku coming along and suggesting the tournament gave one of the universes a chance of surviving. In Trunks's timeline, as far as we know Zeno still plans to erase these universes, and this time there's no hope of any of the universes targeted to survive because the tournament in Universe 6 never happened in this timeline.

As for Vegeta, even he's not such a total asshole as to drag his son into this, yes he wants him to get stronger and always train but he would understand that Trunks needs some time to recover from all that happend. Putting him in a situation that is almost spiritually identical to those final moments with Zamasu and Zen-Oh will not do Trunks any good. He needs time to recover, deal with whats happend and move on in his own way and dragging him into another fight with such high stakes will not help.

That's how Vegeta works, especially towards Future Trunks; he would definitely push Trunks to join the tournament, even more if he knows that they all die if they fail with Bra now around.

[precita]

Some people are acting like this whole Freeza replacing Buu thing is the worst thing to happen, but the amount of complaining seems pretty minor compared to episode 66 and overall it's dying down pretty fast. I think as long as they do Freeza right people will get over it.

The rage is more or less dead I feel. I think the majority of complaints now is how Buu is being left out due to sleeping for the third time. Which I feel is fair. It is really lame.

Same, I'm more upset about Buu being gone than who's replacing him, but at least he got two wins this arc already. I was also kinda prepping myself for Buu to be replaced since Toyotaro's comment because of of how he's only in the case shots in the OP and sleeping in the ED.
It seems from my perspective that most people that are mad about Freeza coming back have kinda transitioned into apathy for the whole thing, which is a big reason why I think that as long as they do it right those people will be okay with it.

I'm not over Buu being replaced. He got one episode to fight, that's not an, "arc." If Buu fought in the Champa tournament then I probably wouldn't mind him sitting out this one, but to screw him over for TWO tournaments in a row? When he was hyped on all the promotional material too and we were told he was going to fight only to pull a bait and switch?

As said, if they told us from the start he wouldn't be competing like they did with Trunks/Goten, people wouldn't have had such a bad reaction to it.

[FortuneSSJ]

Some people are acting like this whole Freeza replacing Buu thing is the worst thing to happen, but the amount of complaining seems pretty minor compared to episode 66 and overall it's dying down pretty fast.

When it's about power levels it tends to last for eternity.

[TheMikado]

Bulma, maybe. Vegeta though? He would encourage Trunks to fight in the tournament (Especially considering that the Super Dragonballs could help him a lot). One of the big points of Trunks's arc, as both Vegeta and Zamasu note, is that yet again he had to go to everyone else to fix his problems. Vegeta, by the end of the arc, wanted Trunks to promise that he would get stronger than Vegeta. He doesn't want Trunks to settle down and be lazy, like Gohan, he wants Trunks to train so hard that he never has to rely on others to fight for him again.

Plus, he won't be left alone to find peace with Mai. Because the main timeline is the only timeline where Zeno decides he'll spare one of the universes.

But Trunks time was just fine, Zen-Oh never destroyed any universes in that future. If what Black and Zamasu said was true all the universes are safe and sound.

While Goku suggesting the tournament did not really put the other universes in danger and gave 1 a chance to survive, that whole mortel level rating only exists because of Goku bringing Future Zeno-Oh to his time and letting them meet. They came up with it together and its clear that its something Zen=Oh never implemented on his own. So Goku did f##k everyone over just not in the way everyone assumed.

That's not what the story shows us, as specifically pointed out by Whis: Zeno was always planning to erase all of these universes, but Goku coming along and suggesting the tournament gave one of the universes a chance of surviving. In Trunks's timeline, as far as we know Zeno still plans to erase these universes, and this time there's no hope of any of the universes targeted to survive because the tournament in Universe 6 never happened in this timeline.

As for Vegeta, even he's not such a total asshole as to drag his son into this, yes he wants him to get stronger and always train but he would understand that Trunks needs some time to recover from all that happend. Putting him in a situation that is almost spiritually identical to those final moments with Zamasu and Zen-Oh will not do Trunks any good. He needs time to recover, deal with whats happend and move on in his own way and dragging him into another fight with such high stakes will not help.

That's how Vegeta works, especially towards Future Trunks; he would definitely push Trunks to join the tournament, even more if he knows that they all die if they fail with Bra now around.

You know why don't they all just jump ship to another timeline? Goku doesn't care about people he doesn't personally know and I doubt anyone else there would have a problem with doing that. Beerus could send some smucks to fight in there place and jump ship too. It's not like Zeno has control over time to go looking for them.

[Beyond]

I'm not over Buu being replaced. He got one episode to fight, that's not an, "arc." If Buu fought in the Champa tournament then I probably wouldn't mind him sitting out this one, but to screw him over for TWO tournaments in a row? When he was hyped on all the promotional material too and we were told he was going to fight only to pull a bait and switch?

As said, if they told us from the start he wouldn't be competing like they did with Trunks/Goten, people wouldn't have had such a bad reaction to it.

Buu and Piccolo got the least amount of hype in total. A lot of people thought something was going to happen to those two, Buu more so. In fact, Buu was never mentioned in any capacity doing tag team matches with others like Krillin and the androids were. He didn't get build up episodes like Gohan and 17. A lot of people saw it coming a mile away. The only thing that made me think Buu was safe is that the producer(I think it was the producer) said he was excited for Buu's and 17's fights.

[ArchedThunder]

I'm not over Buu being replaced. He got one episode to fight, that's not an, "arc." If Buu fought in the Champa tournament then I probably wouldn't mind him sitting out this one, but to screw him over for TWO tournaments in a row? When he was hyped on all the promotional material too and we were told he was going to fight only to pull a bait and switch?

As said, if they told us from the start he wouldn't be competing like they did with Trunks/Goten, people wouldn't have had such a bad reaction to it.

They said he would fight and he did, he got two wins.

[Kanassa]

You know why don't they all just jump ship to another timeline?

In the quote you are replying to, I already state why that is the worst option. The main timeline is the only timeline where they have a chance of surviving.

[Lord Frieza]

I thought about Trunks and....I think he's been through enough.

The guy has fought hard for years and lost almost everything and one he cared for. In the end he failed. Would it really be fair to make the poor guy fight in a tournament where he could end up watching everything and everyone he cares for in this time be destroyed to. And possibly himself, leaving Mai all alone?

I think that would be to much to ask, Hell I bet Vegeta and Bulma would not let Goku do that for those very reasons. Trunks has been fighting the good fighter longer then anyone else on the team save Roshi and Goku and he lost so much already. He deserves to be left alone in what little peace he can find with Mai.

This STILL pisses me off and opens old wounds because of all the crap he's been through and his crappy existence right now where even that is about to be taken from him. Like if Trunks found out that they held a tournament of power for the existence of the universe AND that Goku picked Roshi of all damn people AND they lost, like how crappy would that be??? This is really a sore spot for me so number one they better not lose and make Future Trunks miserable life already worse, especially when he has that sentimental moment with Gohan at the end to make it seem like even all they crap he's been through was worth it for someone else and to possibly have that taken from him too.. like I want them to let him die a miserable old man at this point but it seems like they can't even let the things he loves go one day without their existence being jeopardized him being helpless to stop it. / End angry rant.

- Trunks is my 2nd favorite character so I'm still not over that damn ending

Wow you care a lot about Trunks...good rant btw.

That's not what the story shows us, as specifically pointed out by Whis: Zeno was always planning to erase all of these universes, but Goku coming along and suggesting the tournament gave one of the universes a chance of surviving. In Trunks's timeline, as far as we know Zeno still plans to erase these universes, and this time there's no hope of any of the universes targeted to survive because the tournament in Universe 6 never happened in this timeline.

When was it ever implied, before Zen-Oh's announced the fact,that he had any intention of destroy all the universes. Whis's comments is clearly based soley around the current events and the Two Zen-Oh's. None has ever talked about universal destruction beyond "dont piss off Zen-Oh". Also Zen-oh has been openly depicted as childish and impatient with the only thing keeping him in check being promises of more fun in the future. If he genuinely wanted to destroy 60% of the universes under his rule, he'd just do it. He would not wait 17 years or more, even the Grand Priest clearly dose not have that much sway over him. Hell he didn't even so much as pause when he saw Zamasu, it was instant cosmic annihilation. All the evidence point to this whole Mortal Level and Universe Destroy stuff being the result of Two Zen-Oh getting bored and coming up with this idea to pass the time.

That's how Vegeta works, especially towards Future Trunks; he would definitely push Trunks to join the tournament, even more if he knows that they all die if they fail with Bra now around.

And if he has a mental break down, like dear old dad was apt to do back in the day, he'll be no good to anyone and die feeling even worse then if he had not turned up at all.

[Krillin1994]

I mean we don't know that Frieza is definitely in the team yet, he could just simply refuse, or better yet try to instantly betray the team leading to Beerus erasing him.

Then ma Boy Yamcha steps up.

Or Gokus realises his Grandpa could be brought back to fight. Imagine if Goku's chat with 17 was foreshadowing.....

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Some people are acting like this whole Freeza replacing Buu thing is the worst thing to happen, but the amount of complaining seems pretty minor compared to episode 66 and overall it's dying down pretty fast. I think as long as they do Freeza right people will get over it.

Well the Freeza thing isn't confirmed yet plus in #66 we witnessed everything as it happened but if a month prior we were told fusion was gonna be retconned and Trunks was gonna end Zamasu with a technique similar to the Spirit Bomb, the reaction to #66 would not have been as severe as it was, heck this Freeza thing is already starting to empty out of me.

[Lord Frieza]

I mean we don't know that Frieza is definitely in the team yet, he could just simply refuse, or better yet try to instantly betray the team leading to Beerus erasing him.

Then ma Boy Yamcha steps up.

Or Gokus realises his Grandpa could be brought back to fight. Imagine if Goku's chat with 17 was foreshadowing.....

Or Ya Boy Yamcha is in for one of the biggest twists of the knife life could ever give him, on par with his ex-girlfriend shacking up with the guy responsible for his death.

One of his oldest friends is about to turn to one of the most evil villains in the entire DB Universe for help over him.

[Freeza9000]

Oh it was an absolute shit storm. One of those things the fans were really divided on for a good while.

I thought future Trunks was so popular that people gave him a pass lol

And plenty of people did and still do. But there was a lot going on at the time. In that one episode there was a retcon, that for some people, was hard to swallow, the ending felt a bit rushed, and Trunks had pulled one of the most out of nowhere moves and he had already gotten a transformation that, to this day, nobody knows what it even is. Which on their own isn't so bad, but, as other people have said, It's not so much that some ass pulls happened, it's that a lot of them happened in rapid succession. No one had time to digest everything.

I loved it, but it obviously wasn't loved by everyone.

I'm quite curious on what you loved about it. Honestly, the more I now think about it, the more I feel disgusted and nauseous. Hell, I even regret once trying to defend the episode and looking back, I'd vomit. It's the painfully rushed pacing and the asspulled ending that formed what could considered one of the worst episodes ever.

[jeffbr92]

I got be honest I would like better if we had this God Broly stuff from this 4-D movie in Super than his female counterpart lol

It seems Gohan will face Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku, after all. Brace yourselves for incoming lots of hate from those power level "analyzers"!

[spoiler][/spoiler]

I'm a Gohan fan and I think this is a total bullcrap, but some may like it anyway

[Boo Machine]

I thought future Trunks was so popular that people gave him a pass lol

And plenty of people did and still do. But there was a lot going on at the time. In that one episode there was a retcon, that for some people, was hard to swallow, the ending felt a bit rushed, and Trunks had pulled one of the most out of nowhere moves and he had already gotten a transformation that, to this day, nobody knows what it even is. Which on their own isn't so bad, but, as other people have said, It's not so much that some ass pulls happened, it's that a lot of them happened in rapid succession. No one had time to digest everything.

I loved it, but it obviously wasn't loved by everyone.

I'm quite curious on what you loved about it. Honestly, the more I now think about it, the more I feel disgusted and nauseous. Hell, I even regret once trying to defend the episode and looking back, I'd vomit. It's the painfully rushed pacing and the asspulled ending that formed what could considered one of the worst episodes ever.

Well I can't really tell you anything you probably already can't figure out what might be appealing. But -

I didn't mind the retcon. In fact I think it makes perfect sense and I was always against the idea of a fusion winning the day. It always seemed cheap to me, so the fact that it got nerfed was a huge plus in my book.

Vegito obviously could have used more time on screen. I agree with the notion that this episode should have been spread out to at least 2. But the action on display is really great and fun to watch. Even before the fusion. The bit with Goku and Zamasus beam struggle is actually my favorite part of the episode. Especially when Goku goes, no hands, beat down on Zamasus face.

I assume most of the hatred comes from Trunks, but I didn't really care how cheesy and nonsense it might have been. Trunks deserved to get the win. (At the time when it seemed like he had actually gotten the win anyway) It was fitting, it was beautiful, and it was epic. I FELT a thing. I believed it! I don't care about power scaling all that much. I feel it's one of the least important aspects in what makes a good Dragonball story. I can fill in blanks on my own if I have enough information and I feel like I did.

Really the only thing I didn't like was that Black wasn't the final fight. The whole arc is built around Goku black and he turns out to be awesome, only for him to get edged out by a more powerful Zamasu . As much as I like Zamasu,

[Avok]

I disagree with that, wholeheartedly. There are instances of exaggeration, but thats not a consistent thing. Goku is the same, an idiot who is a fighting genius.

I find it weird how many justify Goku's actions back in Z but draw the line at super. I mean, Goku let Freeza go in the namek saga and gave Cell a senzu bean and there is many evidence to suggest he would have sacrificed 18 for a fight though trunks may have been able to convince him.

It is a consistent thing.
And I'm not even talking about specific moments like the ones you mentioned (that are actually well tought and completely different from what he's done in Super) but even something like his interactios with the other characters is just off. The only moment where he behave like himself was back at the exhibition match, when Gohan was fighting.

Goku was sometimes naive, but his whole character didn't revolve around that. Remember, Toriyama said that the elements of posion within him were subtle. Even so, when you look at the role of mentor he had on the majority of the Cell and Boo arc the difference with his characterisation is Super should be evident.

Name one time in the manga that does not involve fighting or training, that Goku is intelligent and I will never argue about this with you again.

I mean, they do involve fighting because the latter parts of the manga are clearly action oriented.
He left Vegeta alive? Handled pretty well. You could consider it as an heoric act or turning the other cheek, but deep down it is a selfish thing to do because he wanted to fight him.
Giving cell a Senzu? Reckless and stupid, but it goes to show how well Toriyama handled the mentor role he gave Goku. It serve as a way to turn Gohan into a man that could defend the planet when Goku wasn't around. And even then he realised his error when Piccolo told him. That's complexity.

Super Goku aside from really specific moments like the time Zamasu told him that he had killed his family or the episode where Gohan fights the fox guy is just a gimmick that floats around the "I'm stupid and I only care about fighting, fighting, fighting".
Go read the Cell and Buu arcs and compare the character interaction between Goku and the others. The difference is mind-boggling.

[Cipher]

Or Ya Boy Yamcha is in for one of the biggest twists of the knife life could ever give him, on par with his ex-girlfriend shacking up with the guy responsible for his death.

One of his oldest friends is about to turn to one of the most evil villains in the entire DB Universe for help over him.

Why at this point would Yamcha, or anyone, be surprised that Goku essentially loves his rivals more than his family and friends? The same Goku who gave Piccolo a Senzu, who spared Vegeta so he could fight him again, who attempted to let Freeza go twice, who tossed Cell a Senzu and took a wait-and-see approach with Boo, who's tried to get chummy with killers like Beerus and Hit? Also the same Goku who has always been willing, from arguing with Kuririn and Kaio over his interests in fighting Vegeta and Freeza to threatening Kaioshin and ignoring Gohan, to put his relationships with his friends on the line in order to do so?

Twist of the knife? It's just the emotional hazard of being Goku's friend.

[HeroR]

He was humoring Goku, not testing to see if he was a Super Saiyan God. Goku couldn't even touch him.

And Gohan knocked him on his face.

Goku outright says he wanted to see how powerful Buu has become, so Buu holding back would be counterproductive.

He was testing him, because he was transforming over and over. Anyone would become suspicious.

Doesnt remove that Gohan got combo'd from the start.

Seems you dont understand, Goku was testing Boo if he actually listened to them and can push his opponent rather than killing them because Boo was confused about not being allowed to kill.
Are we done now?

He there to literally humor him, Beerus more or less said that.

He wasn't testing him on that. It only because an issue after Buu said he would beat everyone. The entire sparring match happened because he wanted to see if his new power. You're trying to rewrite the episode.

[Freeza9000]

I assume most of the hatred comes from Trunks, but I didn't really care how cheesy and nonsense it might have been. Trunks deserved to get the win. (At the time when it seemed like he had actually gotten the win anyway) It was fitting, it was beautiful, and it was epic. I FELT a thing. I believed it! I don't care about power scaling all that much. I feel it's one of the least important aspects in what makes a good Dragonball story. I can fill in blanks on my own if I have enough information and I feel like I did.

It was still a scene full of such nonsensical writing that not even the scenery, music, and animation can save it from. Hell, in the next episode (though I think it's a way better ending than Ep. 66), Trunks's Genki Dama BS is rendered all the more stupid when Trunks's timeline ended up in oblivion. And this isn't just all about power levels or power scaling. It's about having a consistent story that makes sense. This doesn't just apply to DB, but to storytelling in general. Consistency is something important and crucial to forming a good story.