Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[HeroR]

I have already proven that Toriyama has involvement with the DBS manga and that everything that Toyotaro does, goes through the creator. Where does he specifically say that he revises the Storyboards of the anime?

He is not with the production, he does not animate the Anime, he.He designs manga.You want to use an interview that was made 1 year ago in a previous Saga, with the opinion of only one of the producers of the anime as an argument? Soon the anime that has so many changes in the script? The producer himself explained why he thinks Black is the strongest. It's been about a year since the end of the Black Saga in the anime (due to Bulma's pregnancy), and according to the synopses, Vegeta will train again in RoSaT. You just do not want to Accept this, using arguments from a Saga that ended 1 year ago

You didn't proved anything we didn't already know for months. I also showed that Toriyama also approves of everything in the anime, so he isn't just looking at the manga.

He is the producer of the anime and it is his version of Toriyama's story that we're seeing. So in the anime Black is stronger. Don't like, tough. The producer in the series hold more weight than fans on the internment.

And again, assumption. Where is your proof?

It wasn't just his opinion since he works on the show. He approves the story and tells the writers what to writes. He isn't some fan giving his opinion.

It's just what he said he thought, it wasn't some official fact of the show.

And you have proof of that? Especially since Merged Zamasu was suppressed and Goku broke his arms.

Of course there's proof. Suppressed or not, Gowasu said that Merged Zamasu's power wasn't just just Black's plus Zamasu's, it was that and then it was further expanded upon. Vegeta said he'd never felt such a powerful Ki or some such.

He was rather obviously more powerful, considerably so, compared to just Black on his own. Goku overpowered him, broken arms or not. Vegeta and Trunks together overpowered him.

Black isn't going to overpower a much stronger version of himself, that wouldn't make any sense.

Future Zamasu in the anime managed to push Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku.

No he didn't. He hit Goku a grand total of once during the entire saga. You can actually count the amount of times he actually hits anyone on one hand. Goku beat him with ridiculous ease the other two times they fought.

SSJ2 Trunks overpowered him and then later in the saga when drained after fighting Black he fought on par with Zamasu. He was shown to be nowhere near that level in the manga either because Goku dropped out of Blue form after testing him out.

And Goku beat up Present Zamasu as a Super Saiyan 2, not Future Zamasu.

The only stated difference is that one has immortality and the other doesn't. There's no significant power difference at all, neither in the anime or manga. SSJ2 Goku is superior to Present Zamasu and SSJ2 Trunks is superior to Future Zamasu.

The latter was also said in the manga.

And it was stated several times in the anime Future Zamasu drops his guard because of his immortality.

Yeah which would be like the scene when he was fighting Goku and then mid fight he looked away and started commenting on the rift Black opened up and so he got punched in the face for not paying attention.

Nothing to go against what I've said though.

It wasn't his opinion. The Future Trunks Saga is his vision of Toriyama's notes. No matter how you try to downplay it, his word is gold unless Toriyama himself goes against it. So it is official to the show since we saw in Black's last episode that he was superior to Goku and Vegeta.

Saying that Goku was stronger than Black based on an overcharged attack is about as flawed as saying Piccolo was stronger than Raditz because he killed him when Goku couldn't.

He pushed him, blocked him, and made Goku back flipped away from his attacks. Not possible if he was only as strong as Super Saiyan 2 Trunks. Heck, Goku could have tanked those attacks giving the power different. On top of that, he held down both Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku and Future Trunks at the same time and neither could escape. He didn't even struggle. And manga used different scaling, so it doesn't matter to the anime.

There is a clear different since Super Saiyan 2 Goku pushed through Present Zamasu's attack. He didn't against Future Zamasu despite being a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. At this point, saying there is no power different between the two is an outright lie. And again, manga scaling isn't the anime.

Both Future Trunks and Goku said it. Future Trunks said it when he grabbed Zamasu and tried to blow him up.

At this point, you're just trying to downplay Future Zamasu when the anime makes it clear it was within the same tier as Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan and not just Super Saiyan 2 Goku since Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku should have wasted Future Zamasu in Episode 57, but he didn't. He struggled and Zamasu physical held Goku down. And you can't seem to let go of the fact that the anime doesn't used the same scaling as the manga. Especially when the manga had Present Zamasu struggle against Kibito.

[TheSaiyanGod]

I have already proven that Toriyama has involvement with the DBS manga and that everything that Toyotaro does, goes through the creator. Where does he specifically say that he revises the Storyboards of the anime?

He is not with the production, he does not animate the Anime, he.He designs manga.You want to use an interview that was made 1 year ago in a previous Saga, with the opinion of only one of the producers of the anime as an argument? Soon the anime that has so many changes in the script? The producer himself explained why he thinks Black is the strongest. It's been about a year since the end of the Black Saga in the anime (due to Bulma's pregnancy), and according to the synopses, Vegeta will train again in RoSaT. You just do not want to Accept this, using arguments from a Saga that ended 1 year ago

You didn't proved anything we didn't already know for months. I also showed that Toriyama also approves of everything in the anime, so he isn't just looking at the manga.

He is the producer of the anime and it is his version of Toriyama's story that we're seeing. So in the anime Black is stronger. Don't like, tough. The producer in the series hold more weight than fans on the internment.

And again, assumption. Where is your proof?

Already posted these interviews, you know what I'm talking about.

New York Comic Con:

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/intervi ... ou/.107579

Every month, I'll create a storyboard for him to review, and then he'll give me input and suggest changes. When I'm working with Toriyama, there are many portions he gives me props for coming up with, but he is very particular about other things and always points them out for me to correct. And when he corrects me, I think “Wow, I guess I don't completely understand the way he looks at things,” so his corrections and feedback are incredibly accurate and helpful. It's a lot of fun to be able to get closer to his way of thinking.


Napoli Comic Con: https://pastebin.com/K7FGtFfp

''And even if, for a fan like me, it feels great to have Toriyama's approvation on more traditional drawings, some of my greatest satisfactions stem from seeing him approve my original ideas: new moves, new expressions. And something else, in the future.

Toriyama draws manga, he does not produce anime, so there is no way he can get involved with producing one.
That is, he is not even looking at what Toei does, he simply sends the script and they adapt. The difference is that he works with Toyotaro in the manga, so his involvement in the manga is bigger.

Bring me an interview where it is said that Toriyama oversees the anime
'' He oversees all DB-related Storyboards ''

This is VERY SUBJECTIVE.
There are tons of content related to DB, and if it did the same thing it does with the manga, it would work hard. We do not know how this works for other media, but we already know how it works in manga.

No matter his involvement with the original script, he is adapted and many things are changed in the anime, not to mention that his explanation of finding Black stronger than ever Was related to its power demonstrated in the anime.
It's not official information like the one that comes out in V-JUMP.
The opinion of this producer does not mean everything, and Toriyama never said the same.

And again, even if Black was the strongest, that statement (opinion) MAKES A YEAR. It does not make sense to take it as absolute truth for the current Saga with all that's going on.

[HeroR]

Already posted these interviews, you know what I'm talking about.

New York Comic Con:

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/intervi ... ou/.107579

Every month, I'll create a storyboard for him to review, and then he'll give me input and suggest changes. When I'm working with Toriyama, there are many portions he gives me props for coming up with, but he is very particular about other things and always points them out for me to correct. And when he corrects me, I think “Wow, I guess I don't completely understand the way he looks at things,” so his corrections and feedback are incredibly accurate and helpful. It's a lot of fun to be able to get closer to his way of thinking.


Napoli Comic Con: https://pastebin.com/K7FGtFfp

''And even if, for a fan like me, it feels great to have Toriyama's approvation on more traditional drawings, some of my greatest satisfactions stem from seeing him approve my original ideas: new moves, new expressions. And something else, in the future.

Toriyama draws manga, he does not produce anime, so there is no way he can get involved with producing one.
That is, he is not even looking at what Toei does, he simply sends the script and they adapt. The difference is that he works with Toyotaro in the manga, so his involvement in the manga is bigger.

Bring me an interview where it is said that Toriyama oversees the anime
'' He oversees all DB-related Storyboards ''

This is VERY SUBJECTIVE.
There are tons of content related to DB, and if it did the same thing it does with the manga, it would work hard. We do not know how this works for other media, but we already know how it works in manga.

No matter his involvement with the original script, he is adapted and many things are changed in the anime, not to mention that his explanation of finding Black stronger than ever Was related to its power demonstrated in the anime.
It's not official information like the one that comes out in V-JUMP.
The opinion of this producer does not mean everything, and Toriyama never said the same.

And again, even if Black was the strongest, that statement (opinion) MAKES A YEAR. It does not make sense to take it as absolute truth for the current Saga with all that's going on.

Q: I've heard Toriyama has a direct role into your work, right?

T: Not only mine: he supervises every storyboard related to the Dragon Ball universe.

So yes, Toriyama supervised the anime too, not just the manga. He doesn't needs to 'draw the anime' he overlooks their work and approves of it. So no, his involvement isn't bigger on the manga other than making correction on a gag. This isn't subjective.

He's adapts the script from Toriyama's notes that Toriyama approves of. So his statements on the anime are facts, not opinions unless Toriyama himself disagrees. It is official to the anime, no ifs or ands about it.

So no, not an opinion, unless you have something from Toriyama that goes against his statement.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Already posted these interviews, you know what I'm talking about.

New York Comic Con:

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/intervi ... ou/.107579

Every month, I'll create a storyboard for him to review, and then he'll give me input and suggest changes. When I'm working with Toriyama, there are many portions he gives me props for coming up with, but he is very particular about other things and always points them out for me to correct. And when he corrects me, I think “Wow, I guess I don't completely understand the way he looks at things,” so his corrections and feedback are incredibly accurate and helpful. It's a lot of fun to be able to get closer to his way of thinking.


Napoli Comic Con: https://pastebin.com/K7FGtFfp

''And even if, for a fan like me, it feels great to have Toriyama's approvation on more traditional drawings, some of my greatest satisfactions stem from seeing him approve my original ideas: new moves, new expressions. And something else, in the future.

Toriyama draws manga, he does not produce anime, so there is no way he can get involved with producing one.
That is, he is not even looking at what Toei does, he simply sends the script and they adapt. The difference is that he works with Toyotaro in the manga, so his involvement in the manga is bigger.

Bring me an interview where it is said that Toriyama oversees the anime
'' He oversees all DB-related Storyboards ''

This is VERY SUBJECTIVE.
There are tons of content related to DB, and if it did the same thing it does with the manga, it would work hard. We do not know how this works for other media, but we already know how it works in manga.

No matter his involvement with the original script, he is adapted and many things are changed in the anime, not to mention that his explanation of finding Black stronger than ever Was related to its power demonstrated in the anime.
It's not official information like the one that comes out in V-JUMP.
The opinion of this producer does not mean everything, and Toriyama never said the same.

And again, even if Black was the strongest, that statement (opinion) MAKES A YEAR. It does not make sense to take it as absolute truth for the current Saga with all that's going on.

Q: I've heard Toriyama has a direct role into your work, right?

T: Not only mine: he supervises every storyboard related to the Dragon Ball universe.

So yes, Toriyama supervised the anime too, not just the manga. He doesn't needs to 'draw the anime' he overlooks their work and approves of it. So no, his involvement isn't bigger on the manga other than making correction on a gag. This isn't subjective.

He's adapts the script from Toriyama's notes that Toriyama approves of. So his statements on the anime are facts, not opinions unless Toriyama himself disagrees. It is official to the anime, no ifs or ands about it.

So no, not an opinion, unless you have something from Toriyama that goes against his statement.

The medium of which he is most involved is the manga. Toyotaro emphasizes that Toriyama works with him in the interviews, something never said in relation to the others. In addition, he said that Toriyama only SUPERVISION the other Storyboards related to DB, that is, to take a look at the other Storyboards, but at no time it is said that He approves, revises, makes adjustments and corrections as in manga, he just LOOKS.

Only Storyboard is something very vague, especially if you want to specify the anime here, since a lot of changes and adaptations are made to the production logo and not Has no interview that proves that Toriyama does something more than look at other media (other than the manga). This is because with the amount of content we have, it needs to be very generous and specific to say that it will look at the anime and approve this speech Random of a producer of which he has no control. Why do you think the anime is so different? This is the only text passage you have to prove something, being that it is extremely subjective, pod Endo to have several senses (and not those that suits him), being that yet the only thing said is that he supervises, different from the manga in which he does other things

[HeroR]

The medium of which he is most involved is the manga. Toyotaro emphasizes that Toriyama works with him in the interviews, something never said in relation to the others. In addition, he said that Toriyama only SUPERVISION the other Storyboards related to DB, that is, to take a look at the other Storyboards, but at no time it is said that He approves, revises, makes adjustments and corrections as in manga, he just LOOKS.

Only Storyboard is something very vague, especially if you want to specify the anime here, since a lot of changes and adaptations are made to the production logo and not Has no interview that proves that Toriyama does something more than look at other media (other than the manga). This is because with the amount of content we have, it needs to be very generous and specific to say that it will look at the anime and approve this speech Random of a producer of which he has no control. Why do you think the anime is so different? This is the only text passage you have to prove something, being that it is extremely subjective, pod Endo to have several senses (and not those that suits him), being that yet the only thing said is that he supervises, different from the manga in which he does other things

He is involved in everything. He supervised the anime as well, which is the quote I literally put down for you. You're the one saying he just looks. And if he takes the time look at the storyboards, that means he approves if of it. If he didn't, do you really think he wouldn't say anything? You're letting your bias blind you.

Storyboards are a key part of animation. It tells animators were the story will go from the script. Some changes maybe made, but it's rare for a storyboard to change drastically from the final product. And it was never said that the anime made "a lot of changes and adaptations". The only thing Toriyama ever said was that anime change some thing around and reorder so they can break the outline into episodes. Even Toyo change things as he admitted in an interview.

He isn't a 'random producer'. He is the one who oversaw the entire Future Trunks Saga. He isn't some no-name on the streets. He had control of the script and story since he's the one who approves of everything with Toriyama. I suggest you go into the animation forum here and asked about what is the role of a producer in anime since you seem to be lacking on this subject.

[Draconic]

Sooo... Can someone explain to me what's the outrage with Goku using Blue on Gohan? Ultimate is stronger than Super Saiyan 3, what else should he have used?

[SansrivaaL]

Out of curiosity but where do you guys place SSJB Goku and Vegeta in terms of speed?
and is this the right thread to ask this?

[TheSaiyanGod]

The medium of which he is most involved is the manga. Toyotaro emphasizes that Toriyama works with him in the interviews, something never said in relation to the others. In addition, he said that Toriyama only SUPERVISION the other Storyboards related to DB, that is, to take a look at the other Storyboards, but at no time it is said that He approves, revises, makes adjustments and corrections as in manga, he just LOOKS.

Only Storyboard is something very vague, especially if you want to specify the anime here, since a lot of changes and adaptations are made to the production logo and not Has no interview that proves that Toriyama does something more than look at other media (other than the manga). This is because with the amount of content we have, it needs to be very generous and specific to say that it will look at the anime and approve this speech Random of a producer of which he has no control. Why do you think the anime is so different? This is the only text passage you have to prove something, being that it is extremely subjective, pod Endo to have several senses (and not those that suits him), being that yet the only thing said is that he supervises, different from the manga in which he does other things

He is involved in everything. He supervised the anime as well, which is the quote I literally put down for you. You're the one saying he just looks. And if he takes the time look at the storyboards, that means he approves if of it. If he didn't, do you really think he wouldn't say anything? You're letting your bias blind you.

Storyboards are a key part of animation. It tells animators were the story will go from the script. Some changes maybe made, but it's rare for a storyboard to change drastically from the final product. And it was never said that the anime made "a lot of changes and adaptations". The only thing Toriyama ever said was that anime change some thing around and reorder so they can break the outline into episodes. Even Toyo change things as he admitted in an interview.

He isn't a 'random producer'. He is the one who oversaw the entire Future Trunks Saga. He isn't some no-name on the streets. He had control of the script and story since he's the one who approves of everything with Toriyama. I suggest you go into the animation forum here and asked about what is the role of a producer in anime since you seem to be lacking on this subject.

Toyotaro says, "He oversees all Storyboards related to DB." For you, that means: "He supervises, corrects the Storyboards, gets involved with animation production, the ideas and suggestions SPECIFICALLY from the anime (which is convenient, since there are countless other content for him to look at).

That Toyotaro talks about how good it is to have his ideas approved by the creator himself, he says that he only "supervises" others, and anything more than that would already be his guess since the only work that was confirmed his active manga. Is that anime and manga are very different, Basically because Toei and Toyotaro are free to fill in the blank spaces of the script. The difference is that in the manga it has already been stated that he really participates while not even specifying what he does in the anime. We know that he supervises and only. I did not mean that he was a random animator, but that for you it's as if Toriyama was specifically approving this interview from which he gave his opinion, he said something that came to mind and that Toriyama has no control.
You want to get a statement that does not give details about Toriyama's participation in other media and wants to specify for the anime in a convenient way, only being told that he supervises, and we have a lot of content for it

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Sooo... Can someone explain to me what's the outrage with Goku using Blue on Gohan? Ultimate is stronger than Super Saiyan 3, what else should he have used?

People aren't happy that the highest form is being used so willy-nilly in instances where it's not needed in terms of pure strength.

[TheMikado]

Sooo... Can someone explain to me what's the outrage with Goku using Blue on Gohan? Ultimate is stronger than Super Saiyan 3, what else should he have used?

People aren't happy that the highest form is being used so willy-nilly in instances where it's not needed in terms of pure strength.

No, according to the anime base Goku should be enough to completely make SSJ3 Gotenks ineffectual, so Goku's base alone should be substantially above even Ultimate Gohan from the Buu arc.

We know Gohan, hasn't trained, isn't a fighter anymore, and was weaker than he was even then. To the point where he couldn't go ultimate.
But let's assume that Gohan not only reclaimed the Ultimate level of power, but exceeded beyond that where Ultimate Gohan is now even with the same base Goku that fought RoF and Beerus.
Goku still has SSJ transformations he can stack that should make him 50x, 100x, and 400x stronger respectively over Gohan's Ultimate form, and that ASSUMING its even now even with the crazy strength of base Goku. Then Goku further exceeds it with SSB.

The point is Gohan would have needed to get 40,000% stronger in a mere few hours without the use of Whis training, God ki, RoSaT, or God ritual just for his base to match Goku's assumed base power. In the past we at least got some plot device or BS throwaway line of unlocked potential. Now, its literally "He just got stronger".

[ZombieVito]

It's a good thing Goku's base is nowhere near SSJ3 Gotenks.

I wonder if Gohan can increase Ultimate's multiplier.

[emperior]

It's a good thing Goku's base is nowhere near SSJ3 Gotenks.

I wonder if Gohan can increase Ultimate's multiplier.

Next episode will confirm the two base theory or at least confirm the super powerful base has been dropped entirely, which would still confirm the two base theory, even though Goku already confirmed it when he talked about Blue being "The Super Saiyan form of a Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God" - which is the same thing the magazine we recently re-discovered said, even though many people still refuse to accept it.

[HeroR]

It's a good thing Goku's base is nowhere near SSJ3 Gotenks.

I wonder if Gohan can increase Ultimate's multiplier.

No matter how hard you try, Copy-Vegeta still happened. Even if you want to believe in your two-base theory.

[SansrivaaL]

It's a good thing Goku's base is nowhere near SSJ3 Gotenks.

I wonder if Gohan can increase Ultimate's multiplier.

Next episode will confirm the two base theory or at least confirm the super powerful base has been dropped entirely, which would still confirm the two base theory, even though Goku already confirmed it when he talked about Blue being "The Super Saiyan form of a Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God" - which is the same thing the magazine we recently re-discovered said, even though many people still refuse to accept it.

I thought it was already obvious that there is a 2 base theory or that at least their powers got retconned to their Boo levels to make the other characters relevant, base Goku does not have God ki, its been called out a lot of times, mini Hit arc had Piccolo mention he couldnt sense Goku's ki anymore as a sign that he went SSJB, if he had God ki from the get go the other GoDs wouldnt have been surprised after he went SSJB.

[TheMikado]

It's a good thing Goku's base is nowhere near SSJ3 Gotenks.

I wonder if Gohan can increase Ultimate's multiplier.

No matter how hard you try, Copy-Vegeta still happened. Even if you want to believe in your two-base theory.

This exactly correct but only in the anime, which just makes it flat out horrible, terrible writing instead.

[ZombieVito]

It's a good thing Goku's base is nowhere near SSJ3 Gotenks.

I wonder if Gohan can increase Ultimate's multiplier.

Next episode will confirm the two base theory or at least confirm the super powerful base has been dropped entirely, which would still confirm the two base theory, even though Goku already confirmed it when he talked about Blue being "The Super Saiyan form of a Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God" - which is the same thing the magazine we recently re-discovered said, even though many people still refuse to accept it.

The preview already confirmed it. Base Goku is fighting on par with base Gohan.

[HeroR]

Next episode will confirm the two base theory or at least
I thought it was already obvious that there is a 2 base theory or that at least their powers got retconned to their Boo levels to make the other characters relevant, base Goku does not have God ki, its been called out a lot of times, mini Hit arc had Piccolo mention he couldnt sense Goku's ki anymore as a sign that he went SSJB, if he had God ki from the get go the other GoDs wouldnt have been surprised after he went SSJB.

No God ki Goku fought final form Frieza. And they wouldn't be at their Buu Saga level since Goku and Vegeta are much stronger in general.

And does base form Gohan prove the two base theory other than Gohan himself got stronger?

[SansrivaaL]

Next episode will confirm the two base theory or at least
I thought it was already obvious that there is a 2 base theory or that at least their powers got retconned to their Boo levels to make the other characters relevant, base Goku does not have God ki, its been called out a lot of times, mini Hit arc had Piccolo mention he couldnt sense Goku's ki anymore as a sign that he went SSJB, if he had God ki from the get go the other GoDs wouldnt have been surprised after he went SSJB.

No God ki Goku fought final form Frieza. And they wouldn't be at their Buu Saga level since Goku and Vegeta are much stronger in general.

And does base form Gohan prove the two base theory other than Gohan himself got stronger?

No he did not, Krillin even said "I cant sense Goku's ki anymore" after Goku went SSJB, meaning he could sense it before.
I'm iffy with Gohan getting THAT much stronger in such a short amount of time so I doubt it, he could get stronger but not a huge gain.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

In all likelihood, Two-Base Theory will never be confirmed.

From a production standpoint, it's an outlandish-sounding idea that doesn't mesh with the general narrative being presented in the anime. It's a circumstance that arises because of the writers not considering the consequences of what adapting the movies so directly would entail, and trying to make up for the fact by quietly, if not gracefully, lowering the bar overall for the titular two Saiyans.

In the minds of people, yes, it will be confirmed, because it's the only way proponents can make sense of the power-scaling currently being presented. The narrative itself has never treated it as an issue, and likely never will. The show's producers never had any hardcore in-depth power-scaling in mind like some of the community do, just general ideas of where characters stand, and how they can utilize these standings for entertainment.

Think about it......... would the writers really have never brought up the idea of Two-Base Theory before if it has been a thing for so long, as people claim? It's an unrealistic assumption to make that anything would ever "confirm" it, like when Freud tried to "prove" his theories, instead of making theories around the evidence. It has never been mentioned as a thing in-universe, never been drawn attention to, never played up as something that has ever existed.

It has come to the point that "evidence" is being dredged up from a pamphlet for the movie the anime's arc was adapted from, which is already mainly fluff and open to interpretation. That, and because it was created long before production began on the anime, it is no longer relevant to the anime anyways, especially since the medium has already provided its own evidence, both directly and indirectly, of how things work.

===

Back to the power levels, though. Given how it's still night time, this can't be too much longer after Gohan and Piccolo started training together again. Piccolo certainly believes that Gohan's current Ultimate isn't at its limit. Perhaps the two have figured out a way to increase its power, especially since Gohan was stronger than ever besides Ultimate up until that point.

That, and maybe Goku decides to use SS2 against his son like he did with Goku Black.

Anything could happen.

[TheMikado]

I think you really only have two options:

Either you accept some variant of the "Two base theory"

Or you accept that Gohan got 40,000-50,000%+ stronger in a matter of a few hours.

I don't care which you accept, just be prepared to defend your choice.