Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Bullza]

That line has always confused me.

Did he really regressed that much? If we take the guidebooks word on the matter then he didn't drop a single digit in the 7 years after Cell but apparently he not only lost his Ultimate and SSJ2 forms but he also can't maintain his SSJ form for long in just 1?

I just take the easy route and have him in RoF exactly the same as he was after training with the Z sword. Based on my numbers he would be 2 times stronger by the time the current arc begins.

Well I just checked the Fact Checker thread and they have Gohan as saying this

"The question is, how long can my body last at this point?"

Which makes it sound more like it's because he'd been hurt as opposed to his body just generally not being strong enough than the comment I posted before (from YouTube).

The Ultimate power seems to be treated as a form. So without that then his peak would have been after he'd trained with the Z Sword. He stopped training for about 5 years so by the Resurrection F saga he should ideally be weaker than his post Z Sword training self.

I don't know by how much though. He never used Super Saiyan 2 during that saga. Hell in the movie he said he only thinks he can turn Super Saiyan (1) which again may imply he's weaker than his World Tournament saga self.

After this saga he also asked to be retrained and we know that that training had nothing to do with bringing back his Ultimate power or anything because it was only brought up just recently.

So again you'd think if he needs to retrain it's because he's weaker and needs to get back up where he used to be at which makes me think could it go like

Resurrection F saga Gohan ~ Great Saiyaman Saga Gohan

Universe Survival saga Gohan ~ Post Z Sword Training Gohan

[ZombieVito]

That line has always confused me.

Did he really regressed that much? If we take the guidebooks word on the matter then he didn't drop a single digit in the 7 years after Cell but apparently he not only lost his Ultimate and SSJ2 forms but he also can't maintain his SSJ form for long in just 1?

I just take the easy route and have him in RoF exactly the same as he was after training with the Z sword. Based on my numbers he would be 2 times stronger by the time the current arc begins.

Well I just checked the Fact Checker thread and they have Gohan as saying this

"The question is, how long can my body last at this point?"

Which makes it sound more like it's because he'd been hurt as opposed to his body just generally not being strong enough than the comment I posted before (from YouTube).

The Ultimate power seems to be treated as a form. So without that then his peak would have been after he'd trained with the Z Sword. He stopped training for about 5 years so by the Resurrection F saga he should ideally be weaker than his post Z Sword training self.

I don't know by how much though. He never used Super Saiyan 2 during that saga. Hell in the movie he said he only thinks he can turn Super Saiyan (1) which again may imply he's weaker than his World Tournament saga self.

After this saga he also asked to be retrained and we know that that training had nothing to do with bringing back his Ultimate power or anything because it was only brought up just recently.

So again you'd think if he needs to retrain it's because he's weaker and needs to get back up where he used to be at which makes me think could it go like

Resurrection F saga Gohan ~ Great Saiyaman Saga Gohan

Universe Survival saga Gohan ~ Post Z Sword Training Gohan

The only thing that makes me not use this is his battle with Goku.

If he truly was around his Z sword self then Goku truly hasn't improved much after all his training during Super and I find that hard to believe. Maybe tomorrow Goku says that Gohan has increased his power considerably after both fight on par in base. That would confirm that in their previous fight Goku held back.

[BlueBasilisk]

If he truly was around his Z sword self then Goku truly hasn't improved much after all his training during Super and I find that hard to believe. Maybe tomorrow Goku says that Gohan has increased his power considerably after both fight on par in base. That would confirm that in their previous fight Goku held back.

I'm pretty sure Goku was holding back in 75. Gohan tells him not to, but when they rush at each other for the last time, Goku says he still has more. He's impressed by Gohan's performance but never indicates that he's going all-in.

[Bullza]

The only thing that makes me not use this is his battle with Goku.

If he truly was around his Z sword self then Goku truly hasn't improved much after all his training during Super and I find that hard to believe. Maybe tomorrow Goku says that Gohan has increased his power considerably after both fight on par in base. That would confirm that in their previous fight Goku held back.

There is that but I don't recall if there's been much to imply that ordinary Goku and his Super Saiyan forms have increased from training all that much. He's done a lot of training but it could have all been with improving his Godly power.

That or perhaps Gohan after training with the Z Sword is stronger than we thought. Look at Trunks in the Super manga he mastered the Z Sword in the same way and he was possibly four times as strong as Goku because if it?

The next episode should be interesting. Ultimate Gohan should be vastly stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Gohan if it was anything like Z so if Super Saiyan 2 Goku can even put up any kind of worthwhile fight against Ultimate Gohan then I'd think he was holding back the last time.

[ZombieVito]

The only thing that makes me not use this is his battle with Goku.

If he truly was around his Z sword self then Goku truly hasn't improved much after all his training during Super and I find that hard to believe. Maybe tomorrow Goku says that Gohan has increased his power considerably after both fight on par in base. That would confirm that in their previous fight Goku held back.

There is that but I don't recall if there's been much to imply that ordinary Goku and his Super Saiyan forms have increased from training all that much. He's done a lot of training but it could have all been with improving his Godly power.

That or perhaps Gohan after training with the Z Sword is stronger than we thought. Look at Trunks in the Super manga he mastered the Z Sword in the same way and he was possibly four times as strong as Goku because if it?

The next episode should be interesting. Ultimate Gohan should be vastly stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Gohan if it was anything like Z so if Super Saiyan 2 Goku can even put up any kind of worthwhile fight against Ultimate Gohan then I'd think he was holding back the last time.

Doubt it. Dabura still beat him when he was a regular Super Saiyan.

And yeah. Tomorrow's episode hopefully clears up a few things. I'm pretty sure Goku will beat Piccolo in that tag team match so lets see what form he uses.

[HeroR]

Seriously? Its stated by Goku, with actual words that is Roshi's real power when he isn't holding back. What more do you want?

I stopped debating with that user among others for this very reason; power ups are downplayed, and the constant excuse to keep people exactly where they were several arcs prior, or at best approaching them with some understated minimalist mindset just got a bit played out for my taste.

I honestly don't get why people despise huge power ups in a show that practically revolves around surpassing previously established benchmarks.

I would think that any character undergoing a 10x power up would elicit loads of excitement. It really baffles me when I see people still wanting someone like Kid Buu to be considered a top-notch.

For me personally, hearing about top-tier fighters from the Buu arc becoming mere fodders would be make things that much more entertaining.

Thank you so much for this. This is why I hated debating in this forum because people's power are downplayed into the dirt like Future Zamasu. Having the freaking producer of the anime calling Black the strongest character after the gods is ignored as an opinion even when the show supports the statement. Trunks is called equal to Super Saiyan 2 Goku when Goku didn't do anything to him and we have more impressive stuff from Krillin fighting base and Super Saiyan Goku. Buu was suppressed when the dialog from Goku said he wanted to see how strong he becomes, so it would be counterproductive for Buu to hold back especially since Goku is much stronger than him and we have people saying that Buu only got faster not stronger, when the dialog suggest you got faster and stronger. And there is the whole two-base theory that has never been acknowledged in the show, but fans keep insisting it exists because the idea that people are strong or stronger than Super Saiyan God is unthinkable and everyone must really be around Cell to Buu Saga's levels.

Aside from that, no, it's kind of obvious that I don't have any issue with establishing that characters are that strong if I find are stated to be, per se. The argument here was that Roshi had to be particularly strong specifically because of Goku's comments, I pointed out that the context may imply something else and that to me the adverse contention didn't seem that convincing.

It's just a case of Goku reaching an outlandish conclusion, when the evidence implies something completely different, likely because the writers just needed an excuse for Roshi's supposed power at the ToP.
We litterally see, Tenshinhan's students and Roshi all of a sudden being capable of flying and displaying a purple evil aura and Roshi power up further, as Yurin repeats, then changes her chant and Goku concludes it is all Roshi??
Then again he's the same dumbass, who thought "Majin" Vegeta was all Vegeta's power on his own, until Vegeta flat out told him, it was Babidi who powered him up.
Still it's most unfortunate anyways :/

Goku saw Tien's student training and should know what they're original power was before their possessing. So saying that Goku is just being dumb seem kind of a cop-out. Especially since Tien supports what Goku said when states "possessed or not, he's still the Turtle Hermit". In fact, it was never actually said that Yuri's power made people stronger. If anything, the suggesting was that makes people fight at their best with no mental restraint.

Also, the Majin thing with Vegeta was his own power. According to the guidebooks, the Majin seal works similar to Old Kai's power to bring out ones' full power. So Majin Vegeta is really no different than Ultimate Gohan. Or even the Elder Namekian's ability.

[buutenks]

Well, I think today's episode will make or break the Power Scaling.

[TheSaiyanGod]

How do people see current Base Gohan's power compared to how he was in DBZ. We know he must be somewhat comparable to that level but how do you think he compares exactly? As of this saga is he...

1. Weaker than he was in the Great Saiyaman saga?

2. As strong?

3. As strong as when he mastered the Z Sword and likely surpassed Goku and Vegeta?

4. Stronger than that?

In the Resurrection F saga when Gohan turned into a Super Saiyan he says

"Problem is, my current body can't maintain this for long".

I'm not sure if he's referring to him being damaged from Tagoma or he'd weakened considerably over time to the extent his body in general can't withstand Super Saiyan. In which case he'd be even weaker than in the Great Saiyaman saga because at least there he could transform no problem.

Then he retrained with Piccolo. Did that get him back up to where he was normally in the Buu saga?

In the preview we see Goku base Vs Gohan base, and good, apparently Gohan is putting pressure on his father (based on Goku's expression).
He should be able to do this only in Ultimate form.

So I think they will put Gohan base level Goku base, and their '' Ultimate '' form at an even higher level. I have already said that for me it will be very forced, especially if they do not say anything about it.

[incarnati0n]

As long as they explain what is happening then no power scale will be broken. Even something as Gohan never having an opportunity to train after getting his potential unlocked and so never actually realizing his full potential would be more explanation than for anything else up to this point in Super since it never explains shit.

[Hugo Boss]

Thank you so much for this. This is why I hated debating in this forum because people's power are downplayed into the dirt like Future Zamasu.

That user was reported several times for showing no respect for other users' opinions. Don't follow the same path. It's very okay to think as you do. The way you express that thinking is what you need to watch constantly. Do something else if you hate something. Do what you love.

[HeroR]

Thank you so much for this. This is why I hated debating in this forum because people's power are downplayed into the dirt like Future Zamasu.

That user was reported several times for showing no respect for other users' opinions. Don't follow the same path. It's very okay to think as you do. The way you express that thinking is what you need to watch constantly. Do something else if you hate something. Do what you love.

I make sure to never personally attack anyone. I may attack their opinions or line of thinking, but I do my best to remain respectful to the poster. If I do reached the point of wanting to say something personally, I stop posting.

[LowRyder2005]

People do not necessarily "downplay" characters' powers just as other people do not necessarily "overplay" the same characters' powers: people - being as jolly as they are diverse - interpret things usually in a way they see fit according to different mental frameworks which ultimately always rest on some degree personal inferences and interpretations. The only problem in having poignant discussions usually arises when you're oblivious to this or tend to gradually minimize the aforementiond circumstance when engaged in a some particular types of debates. The principles of symmetric and asymmetric communication in public relations could help get a clearer idea (for a quick summarization and for anyone interested, here: https://www.nku.edu/~turney/prclass/rea ... ras3x.html).

I get it this is something that most lucky people, in my personal experience, start to understand a little, little bit at around 20 to mid-25; that being said, I suppose it could be the most important lesson when discussing something as silly as "who's stronger in a shōnen manga/anime" as well.

Now, there's an awesome citation some of you might want to add to their repertoire: "history is past politics, and politics present history". There's also another one from a mod around here, which goes like "it's fair to be critical, but it's critical to be fair". If everyone on the internet applied the first mantra to dissecting arguments and the second one to the way they should communicate their ideas to other users, trust me, you'd have a much easier time in any given online interaction.

[ekrolo2]

So, I found this photo on DB Wiki and there it said that Blue KKX10 has only twice the power of regular SSBlue. Now, this is from the DB Wiki so I expect this to be entirely wrong but if anyone can verify this, it would be greatly appreciated.

[LowRyder2005]

Interesting tidbit. But a higher resolution and the translation thread would definitely be your best bet to find your answer. I don't know how many Japanese-speaking users read this thread.

EDIT: Did it for you, while avoiding the low resolution issue.

[Sonicjamareiz]

So, I found this photo on DB Wiki and there it said that Blue KKX10 has only twice the power of regular SSBlue. Now, this is from the DB Wiki so I expect this to be entirely wrong but if anyone can verify this, it would be greatly appreciated.

that mathematically makes no sense unless they're talking about regular SSJB KK

[ekrolo2]

So, I found this photo on DB Wiki and there it said that Blue KKX10 has only twice the power of regular SSBlue. Now, this is from the DB Wiki so I expect this to be entirely wrong but if anyone can verify this, it would be greatly appreciated.

that mathematically makes no sense unless they're talking about regular SSJB KK

It was on the KKX10 page which is what makes me wonder how valid that is. We need a proper translator for the stuff in that image.

[dragonball0900]

So again you'd think if he needs to retrain it's because he's weaker and needs to get back up where he used to be at which makes me think could it go like

Resurrection F saga Gohan ~ Great Saiyaman Saga Gohan

Universe Survival saga Gohan ~ Post Z Sword Training Gohan

As I said before, Piccolo was being defeated easily by Tagoma, while SSJ Gohan defeated Tagoma easily. We know that Piccolo makes good gains with training, specially with the recent Dragon Ball Super episodes, so Buu arc Piccolo with only being equal or slightly weaker than the Cell Jr, could get to probably Cell Games Goku level by the time of ROF, Gohan should be much stronger than that, therefore much stronger than Great Saiyaman arc Gohan.

Just because he can't transform into SSJ2 it doesnt' mean he is weaker than his Buu arc self, that's a problem most people have, Gohan just probably forgot how to use it properly after years of not using it. It could be a reason why he hadn't use SSJ2 that much in the Buu arc, only in the Tournament against Kibito.

[Bullza]

Just because he can't transform into SSJ2 it doesnt' mean he is weaker than his Buu arc self, that's a problem most people have, Gohan just probably forgot how to use it properly after years of not using it. It could be a reason why he hadn't use SSJ2 that much in the Buu arc, only in the Tournament against Kibito.

But Gohan hadn't used Super Saiyan 2 in the 7 years since he fought Cell and he seemed to be able to use it just fine during the World Tournament.

Why would he have suddenly forgot how to use it in the 5 years after the Buu saga?

[dragonball0900]

But Gohan hadn't used Super Saiyan 2 in the 7 years since he fought Cell and he seemed to be able to use it just fine during the World Tournament.

Why would he have suddenly forgot how to use it in the 5 years after the Buu saga?

Remember that he only used it once, in the tournament against Kibito. And after that he hadn't use the SSJ2 form at all. It's like saying that someone knows to play piano very well, the person didn't practice it for 7 years but would barely remember some things from it, later another 5 years pass and because the person still didn't practice at all, he would soon forget completely about practicing the piano.
The same would happen with Gohan. It's just that he forgot how to use the transformation since he didn't practice the form, and considering that Gohan only used the transformation against Kibito, it wouldn't mean anything since that's one time, Gohan could probably get tired if he use the form more than that because of the lack of years of training.

[Lord Beerus]

Base Goku and Base Gohan are dead even in strength.