Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[TBMx]

Once again, Goku was no stronger in Blue than he was in lower Super Saiyan forms. Said it before, I'll say it again. In Super, different forms just exist to sell toys.

He was a lot stronger. Gohan was getting a lot of hits on Goku in his SSJ2 form, but not much in Blue.

Gohan vs Goku Blue:
Gohan punched Goku Blue in the gut.
Goku punches Gohan in the head.
Goku punches again, Gohan blocks.
Gohan punches Goku upward.

Gohan lands 2 to 1. If this were a boxing match, Gohan would win.

So again, Goku was no stronger in Blue than he was in lower Super Saiyan forms. In Super, different forms just exist to sell toys.

[Almighty Majin]

So it looks like Frost is going to be training with HIt in the next episode, how strong do you think he'll get?

[avasatu]

Unfortunately, unless Goku was either massively holding back in non-KK SSB form (entirely possible), or Gohan was holding back the lion's share of his power vs SSJ2 (also very possible), we still don't really know how much stronger SSB is than SSJ3. SSJ3, by scaling, is maybe galactic at best, which I actually think is a high ball, whereas SSB is a buff of a form that is half-universal as a low ball.

Did they nerf the god essence? There is so much evidence now pointing to the fact that SSB is about 50-100 times SSJ3 at most, if we go by the narrative that the show seems to be trying to convey.

This makes me wonder if the yellow-haired SS forms are stronger than we think.

[larzooma]

So it looks like Frost is going to be training with HIt in the next episode, how strong do you think he'll get?

I think he will discover a new form before the tournament. The question is what color will he decide for the form. Frieza chose gold because of his hatred for Sayians, and I'm guessing Frost harbors a bit of hate for them now as well. Does he decide to go with a golden form since Vegeta beat him as a SSJ, or does he go with a blue variant to mirror the Sayians ultimate form? I think he's going to be a lot stronger than the tournament. For two reasons, first to compete with the U7 fighters and second to bring himself to a level to possibly survive an assassination attempt by Hit, who he may have feared someone hired to take him out after the discovery of his true self. If he's anything like his U7 counterpart, a year+ of training could bring him to Hit level or beyond. If Frieze could challenge SSJB in four months, imagine what Frost could do in the time he had to train.

[Saiyan007]

Unfortunately, unless Goku was either massively holding back in non-KK SSB form (entirely possible), or Gohan was holding back the lion's share of his power vs SSJ2 (also very possible), we still don't really know how much stronger SSB is than SSJ3. SSJ3, by scaling, is maybe galactic at best, which I actually think is a high ball, whereas SSB is a buff of a form that is half-universal as a low ball.

Did they nerf the god essence? There is so much evidence now pointing to the fact that SSB is about 50-100 times SSJ3 at most, if we go by the narrative that the show seems to be trying to convey.

This makes me wonder if the yellow-haired SS forms are stronger than we think.

They didn't nerf anything(just Goku's base is as strong as the plot demands).I just see it as Goku is simply giving everyone a taste of God power so in all reality Goku is just massively holding back in his god forms

[Bullza]

SSJ3, by scaling, is maybe galactic at best, which I actually think is a high ball, whereas SSB is a buff of a form that is half-universal as a low ball.

Did Kid Buu destroy a Galaxy in Kai? Super seems to follow that continuity but if so then yeah SSJ3 Goku would have been Galaxy level.

Super Saiyan God Goku I would say is entire Universe level. He was half Universe level just with ordinary punches and before he surpassed his limits another couple times. Beerus negated the super dense energy ball which was said to be able to destroy the universe but he couldn't do the same with Goku's last Kamehameha.

If Frieze could challenge SSJB in four months, imagine what Frost could do in the time he had to train.

Well it wasn't so much a matter of training time. It just took Frieza four months to unlock all of his potential. Perhaps Frost will unlock all his latent potential, it just depends how much he has compared to Frieza.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Once again, Goku was no stronger in Blue than he was in lower Super Saiyan forms. Said it before, I'll say it again. In Super, different forms just exist to sell toys.

He was a lot stronger. Gohan was getting a lot of hits on Goku in his SSJ2 form, but not much in Blue.

Gohan vs Goku Blue:
Gohan punched Goku Blue in the gut.
Goku punches Gohan in the head.
Goku punches again, Gohan blocks.
Gohan punches Goku upward.

Gohan lands 2 to 1. If this were a boxing match, Gohan would win.

So again, Goku was no stronger in Blue than he was in lower Super Saiyan forms. In Super, different forms just exist to sell toys.

Seriously you will tell how much punches in a fight that lasted 5 seconds? If so, Trunks SSJ2 = Vegeta SSB, after all he withstood several blows from Vegeta. And yet, Gohan did not scratch anything against Goku SSB, his punches were gone Totally irrelevant. There is nothing in the anime that indicates this level of gohan

[avasatu]

SSJ3, by scaling, is maybe galactic at best, which I actually think is a high ball, whereas SSB is a buff of a form that is half-universal as a low ball.

Did Kid Buu destroy a Galaxy in Kai? Super seems to follow that continuity but if so then yeah SSJ3 Goku would have been Galaxy level.

Super Saiyan God Goku I would say is entire Universe level. He was half Universe level just with ordinary punches and before he surpassed his limits another couple times. Beerus negated the super dense energy ball which was said to be able to destroy the universe but he couldn't do the same with Goku's last Kamehameha.

No, but he was stated to be a threat to the universe, which means he could tear through a galaxy quickly, and I believe Goku is significantly stronger than in Buu arc. I also mentioned it as a high ball to be nice. I personally peg SSJ3 at galaxy+ based on scaling, Buu feats/statements, and trainings Goku has endured since.

I also personally believe "strong base" Goku (if we assume equivalent to SSG) is almost exactly universal during his fight with Beerus, and I put SSB at 5-10 times that using manga statements. This is ignoring any strength gained since the Beerus fight, and based on Goku's performance vs Hit the second time, I gather he has gained at least 10x power since the beginning of Super, low ball.

This has me saying that Goku is 50-100x Universal as SSB currently, conservatively. However, it's not clear is SSG was going to destroy that contents of the universe, or the fabric itself. Statements seem to lean toward the latter.

Either way, this massive increase in power is not well-represented in the series whatsoever, though it's technically not an impossibility. It's a head-scratcher for me, even more so than the two-base theory was.

[ChiefWamsutta]

So ... I'm feeling like Ultimate Gohan fought so evenly with SS2 Goku. However, the thing that stands out to me is the repeated mentioning of both of them going stronger.

If Ultimate Gohan's power was at SS2 Goku ... then he shouldn't have been able to get any hits in on SSB Goku at all. It is a huge jump to SSB from SS2, which we know Ultimate Gohan fought evenly on.

He got utterly destroyed by SSB KK.
He got in a few hits on SSB.
He fought evenly on SS2.

I don't know ... to be able to get a few hits in I'm feeling Ultimate Gohan is at SSGod Goku level now.

[Marlowe89]

This episode is more or less exactly what I predicted. Ultimate Gohan was already comfortably above Goku's SS3 during the Buu Saga and he was stated to have regained that power a couple of episodes ago, then Piccolo said he would soon reach even greater heights. It's not at all surprising that god level would be the next logical step for a character we've known to have the highest potential in the series since Z.

Base Goku was also on par with base Gohan, making him somewhere in the realm of upper Buu Saga tiers as most of us thought.

[ChiefWamsutta]

This episode is more or less exactly what I predicted. Ultimate Gohan was already comfortably above Goku's SS3 during the Buu Saga and he was stated to have regained that power a couple of episodes ago, then Piccolo said he would soon reach even greater heights. It's not at all surprising that god level would be the next logical step for a character we've known to have the highest potential in the series since Z.

Base Goku was also on par with base Gohan, making him somewhere in the realm of upper Buu Saga tiers as most of us thought.

I think they weren't fighting at the level of the upper Buu saga. Gohan only transforms into Ultimate after he and Goku take the Senzu. His bang appears and he says this is my current full power. During his fight with Base Goku he said that he wasn't even close to full power. Plus, Goku struggled to push back Piccolo's explosion which wouldn't have happened if he were above SS3 Gotenks or so. I think they were fighting in the realm of Buu Saga Base. I see it as this:

SSB KK Goku
SSB Goku
Ultimate Gohan (Full Power) = SSGod Goku
SS2 Goku = Ultimate Gohan (Supressed)
Base Goku = Base Gohan

[Marlowe89]

I think they weren't fighting at the level of the upper Buu saga. Gohan only transforms into Ultimate after he and Goku take the Senzu. His bang appears and he says this is my current full power. During his fight with Goku he said that he wasn't even close to full power. Plus, Goku struggled to push back Piccolo's explosion which wouldn't have happened if he were above SS3 Gotenks or so. I think they were fighting in the realm of Buu Saga Base. I see it as this:

SSB KK Goku
SSB Goku
Ultimate Gohan (Full Power) = SSGod Goku
SS2 Goku = Ultimate Gohan (Supressed)
Base Goku
Base Gohan

I didn't necessarily mean that Goku had to be stronger than SS3 Gotenks in base, but I think he's almost certainly considerably stronger than his base in the Buu Saga. If Ultimate Gohan's initial strength in this episode (before powering up to full power) was anything like his strength in the Buu Saga and it was matching SS2 Goku, that should at least put Goku's current Super Saiyan 2 above his Super Saiyan 3 strength in Z. Between this and base Goku sparring with a faster Majin Buu, the show seems to be conveying that his gains have been fairly significant since that time period.

[ChiefWamsutta]

I think they weren't fighting at the level of the upper Buu saga. Gohan only transforms into Ultimate after he and Goku take the Senzu. His bang appears and he says this is my current full power. During his fight with Goku he said that he wasn't even close to full power. Plus, Goku struggled to push back Piccolo's explosion which wouldn't have happened if he were above SS3 Gotenks or so. I think they were fighting in the realm of Buu Saga Base. I see it as this:

SSB KK Goku
SSB Goku
Ultimate Gohan (Full Power) = SSGod Goku
SS2 Goku = Ultimate Gohan (Supressed)
Base Goku = Base Gohan

I didn't necessarily mean that Goku had to be stronger than SS3 Gotenks in base, but I think he's almost certainly considerably stronger than he was in the Buu Saga. If Ultimate Gohan's initial strength in this episode (before powering up to full power) was anything like his strength in the Buu Saga and it was matching SS2 Goku, that should at least put Goku's current Super Saiyan 2 above his Super Saiyan 3 strength in Z. Between this and base Goku fighting evenly with a faster Majin Buu, the show seems to be conveying that his gains have been fairly significant since that time period.

Ahhhhhhh, I understand what you are saying. Yes, I agree with all this. It probably is a good measurement to say that Ultimate Gohan vs. SS2 Goku was at his Super Buu power. That would definitely show the increase Goku achieved throughout DBSuper.

I think Gohan chose to go Ultimate against SS2 Goku and suppress it. Goku was probably confused at his going Ultimate, hence asking why he didn't go Super Saiyan 2. He knows Gohan can use Super Saiyan 2. ... I'm intrigued at what Gohan said afterwards. He seems to be steering away from Super Saiyan and wants to achieve a new transformation that might be an extension of Ultimate. That will probably be his power that is at Super Saiyan Blue level.

[buutenks]

Hmm, in my eyes Gohan is ssj blue level ATM.

[Ki Breaker]

Hmm, in my eyes Gohan is ssj blue level ATM.

That is the conclusion I have reached as well..
Kaioken tops Gohan, SSB is a little stronger but gohan is there with it, enough to take and land blows

[ChiefWamsutta]

Hmm, in my eyes Gohan is ssj blue level ATM.

That is the conclusion I have reached as well..
Kaioken tops Gohan, SSB is a little stronger but gohan is there with it, enough to take and land blows

I could see that. The point is that he is on god level now.

Some people I read have been saying that Kid Gohan was able to land punches on Second Form Frieza and that SS Grade 2 Vegeta was able to hit Perfect Cell, so this is no different. It is a clear indicator of Gohan being weaker.

I have to disagree with that premise though because the jump from those levels is much smaller than SS2 to Blue. Despite the fact it was a short, quick clip ... Gohan still landed blows and took them evenly with SSBlue Goku.

[ZombieVito]

Hmm, in my eyes Gohan is ssj blue level ATM.

That is the conclusion I have reached as well..
Kaioken tops Gohan, SSB is a little stronger but gohan is there with it, enough to take and land blows

I could see that. The point is that he is on god level now.

Some people I read have been saying that Kid Gohan was able to land punches on Second Form Frieza and that SS Grade 2 Vegeta was able to hit Perfect Cell, so this is no different. It is a clear indicator of Gohan being weaker.

I have to disagree with that premise though because the jump from those levels is much smaller than SS2 to Blue. Despite the fact it was a short, quick clip ... Gohan still landed blows and took them evenly with SSBlue Goku.

Both examples you give don't even work anyway.

In the first Gohan gets a rage boost that allows him to reach Freeza's level or close to it to hurt him a little. In the second Vegeta only managed to hit Cell because he let him and he tanked the kick.

People just need to get over the fact that Gohan got close to Blue level. Ultimate Gohan told SSB Goku "This is my full power" before attacking and landing hits.

This shouldn't even be a debate.

[ChiefWamsutta]

So what is everyone's current full list of powerlevels?

[ZombieVito]

So what is everyone's current full list of powerlevels?

Putting numbers into people right now is useless since the arc isn't over but a list is good:

1.- Goku.
2.- Vegeta.
3.- Gohan.
4.- Freeza.
5.- Piccolo.
6.- 17.
7.- 18.
8.- Kuririn.
9.- Tenshinhan.
10.- Roshi.

Goku is only at the top because of Kaioken. Vegeta is stronger in the same conditions.

[ChiefWamsutta]

So what is everyone's current full list of powerlevels?

Putting numbers into people right now is useless since the arc isn't over but a list is good:

1.- Goku.
2.- Vegeta.
3.- Gohan.
4.- Freeza.
5.- Piccolo.
6.- 17.
7.- 18.
8.- Kuririn.
9.- Tenshinhan.
10.- Roshi.

Goku is only at the top because of Kaioken. Vegeta is stronger in the same conditions.

This is cool!! I actually said powerlevels to mean all DBSuper characters, not just the U7 team.