Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[TheGreatSaiyaman]

So what is everyone's current full list of powerlevels?

Current SSB Tier:
1. Goku
2. Vegeta - I still feel like his SSB is stronger, but Kaioken x10 is just overkill.

2nd Tier (no particular order)- still God Tier but more SSG to ROF SSB :
17 / Gohan / Frieza - unknown if Frieza trained on his stamina issue, presumably not, so I assume 17 and Gohan are near to or just below his strength, but he could actually be the weakest in this tier.

Piccolo Tier:
5. Piccolo.

4th Tier:
6. 18
7. Krillin
8. Tien
9. Roshi

EDIT: missed the 2nd post..

[AvatarReiko]

Question to you veterans. How does current Ultimate Gohan compare to the likes of Black, Golden Frieza and SSJ2/Ikari Trunks?

Also, just how strong is Goku's SSJ2 form at this point? I am guessing SSJ2 Goku could probably one shot Buuhan at this point?

[Zagacious]

I can't believe how many people are convinced Gohan is on SSB level now. He only lasted about 20 seconds after Goku had gone SSB, and was knocked out in one shot at the end. It makes sense that he's not that strong yet anyways because he hasn't been training much. He is probably beyond SS3, but not by much. I have a feeling his Mystic form will evolve into more of a god form soon and put him closer to Goku SSB/KK level or maybe slightly beyond it.

[wolflonnie]

Italics for comparison with past version of characters.

Tier 0

Zenos

Tier 1

Zeno guards
Grand Priest

Tier 2: Angel Tier

Vados
Whis
Other Angels

Tier 3: GoD Tier

Other strong GoDs
Beerus, SSB Vegetto
Champa, Merged Zamasu (LoJ)
Other weaker GoDs

Tier 4: SSB+ Tier

Current SSBKKx10 Goku
Toppo
Weakened Merged Zamasu (LoJ), Spirit Trunks
Merged Zamasu (Initial), Current SSBKKx2 Goku
Current SSB Goku, Current SSB Vegeta, Current Hit
SSBKKx2 Goku (Zamasu ark), SSR Goku Black (Scythe)
SSB Vegeta (Zamasu ark post training), SSBKKx10 Goku (U6)
SSR Goku Black (Sword)
SSR Goku Black (initial), SSB Goku rage (Zamasu ark) SSB Goku (Zamasu ark later half)

Tier 5: SSB/SSG Tier

SSI Trunks, SSB Goku (Zamasu ark beginning), SSB Vegeta (Zamasu ark beginning), Hit (U6), Giant Bergamo, current Android 17
Golden Frieza, SSB Goku (U6), SSB Vegeta (U6)
Initial SSB Goku, initial SSB Vegeta, base Black Goku (post 1° Zenkai)
Suppressed Beerus
SSG Goku, SSJ Goku (god essence, vs Beerus) future Zamasu, current Ultimate Gohan (FP)
Base Goku (god essence, vs Beerus)

TIer 6: Upper tier Majin Buu Saga

Vegetto SSJ3
Current Goku SSJ3, Black Goku (in the present)
Vegetto SSJ2
Current Goku SSJ2, current Vegeta SSJ2, current Ultimate Gohan (suppressed)
Future Trunks SSJ2, Rageta
Vegetto SSJ, present Zamasu, current SSJ2 Gohan
Current Goku SSJ, current Vegeta SSJ
Buuhan
Buutenks, Future Trunks SSJ, Bergamo
Ultimate Gohan
Current Gohan SSJ
Current Base Goku, current Base Vegeta
Current Piccolo

Tier 7: Lower tier Majin Buu Saga

Cabba SSJ (U6)
Final Form Frost
Magetta, current base Gohan
Base Cabba (U6), base Goku (U6), base Vegeta (U6)
Final Form Frieza (RoF), Base Goku (RoF)
Gotenks SSJ3
Super Buu, Third Form Frost
Slim Buu, Kid Buu
Fat Buu
Base Future Trunks, Good Buu
Drugged Basil
Lavander, Basil, Tired final form Frost, Majin Vegeta

Tier 8: Upper Cell Ark tier

Ginew-Tagoma, Super Perfect Cell
Tagoma
Piccolo (U6), Perfect Cell (100%)
Base Gohan (RoF)
Piccolo (RoF), Suppressed Perfect Cell

Tier 9: SSJ Tier

Android 18, Semi Perfect Cell
Current Krillin, Android 16
Current Roshi, SSJ Trunks @ Mecha Frieza
Current Tenshinhan, SSJ Goku on Namek

[DBZ Macky]

Base Goku survived Piccolo's attack, alebit barely. Wouldn't that imply Base Goku > Piccolo?

[Alruneia]

I can't believe how many people are convinced Gohan is on SSB level now. He only lasted about 20 seconds after Goku had gone SSB, and was knocked out in one shot at the end. It makes sense that he's not that strong yet anyways because he hasn't been training much. He is probably beyond SS3, but not by much. I have a feeling his Mystic form will evolve into more of a god form soon and put him closer to Goku SSB/KK level or maybe slightly beyond it.

Was it 20 seconds? It didn't feel that long. There were only like three blows in total before Goku used Kaioken.
I almost feel like I didn't watch the same episode as those who claim that Ultimate Gohan is on the same tier as Blue Goku. I never got that impression at all. I'll accept that he's above SSJ3 Goku, which he should be if their bases are equal, but not Blue.

Also here's a list. I call it the "no holding back excuse" list.
1. Goku
2. Vegeta
3. 17
4. Frieza
5. Gohan
6. Piccolo
7. 18
8. Krillin
9. Roshi
10. Tien

[Saturnine]

Question to you veterans. How does current Ultimate Gohan compare to the likes of Black, Golden Frieza and SSJ2/Ikari Trunks?

Also, just how strong is Goku's SSJ2 form at this point? I am guessing SSJ2 Goku could probably one shot Buuhan at this point?

Ultimate Gohan was previously around 8x stronger than SSj3 Goku. Now SSj2 Goku matches him, while Gohan's gotten even stronger. This is actually a decent way to show just how far Goku has come since the Buu arc in his non-godly forms.

He's gotten over 32x stronger. If we accept Beerus' statement that he was unable to defeat Freeza in base (making him say, 100 million), now his base power would be at least at 3,2 billion (to match Ultimate Gohan's previous max) and say, at 3.5-4 billion to match his newly empowered self (because let's be serious with each other here guys, he couldn't have gotten THAT much of a boost from training with Piccolo for just a few hours).

I still feel it's slightly below Buutenks or Buuhan level.

[namekiansaiyan]

Base Goku survived Piccolo's attack, alebit barely. Wouldn't that imply Base Goku > Piccolo?

That is an inconsistency without doubt. No defending what happened there. Goku was going toe to toe with base Gohan with no ultimate while that Gohan could not even touch Piccolo and then Piccolo literally strangled SS2 Gohan and killed him. Goku was fist fighting others in Super Saiyan as well so this is an inconsistency.

I just think they did it because they didn't want Goku to use Super Saiyan until the one on one match.

[TBMx]

He was a lot stronger. Gohan was getting a lot of hits on Goku in his SSJ2 form, but not much in Blue.

Gohan vs Goku Blue:
Gohan punched Goku Blue in the gut.
Goku punches Gohan in the head.
Goku punches again, Gohan blocks.
Gohan punches Goku upward.

Gohan lands 2 to 1. If this were a boxing match, Gohan would win.

So again, Goku was no stronger in Blue than he was in lower Super Saiyan forms. In Super, different forms just exist to sell toys.

Seriously you will tell how much punches in a fight that lasted 5 seconds? If so, Trunks SSJ2 = Vegeta SSB, after all he withstood several blows from Vegeta. And yet, Gohan did not scratch anything against Goku SSB, his punches were gone Totally irrelevant. There is nothing in the anime that indicates this level of gohan

No, I tell by how many punches one sucessfully lands in a fight when both parties are trying. Trunks SS2 didn't land anything on Vegeta SSB, Vegeta landed with impunity on Trunks SS2. Goku didn't hurt Gohan either, who still had the energy to clash with SSB kaioken Goku.

Arguing Goku Blue is stronger despite Gohan landing more on him than he did on Gohan, doesn't make any sense. The writers purposely chose to have Gohan get more unblocked shots in despite the fight being short. How is that insignificant? It wasn't accidental.

[Bulma's Foot Masseur]

What I got from this episode is that I don't know why Base Goku would need a second base to one-shot SSJ3 Gotenks when First Base Goku was presented to be on the same level as Piccolo who isn't far off from Ultimate Gohan.

[DBZ Macky]

At this point, I think Goku can just go from Buu Saga Base levels to God levels, just in his base form. Which is to say, he's as strong as he wants to be.
SS Goku = SS Gohan
=> SS2 Goku = SS2 Gohan

Now, Ultimate Gohan >> SS2 Gohan
But SS2 Goku = Ultimate Gohan

What?

[TAF108]

I'd definitely say Gohan should be SSJB tier. People are saying he's only at SSJ2 Goku level, but they clearly fought on par in base. So Gohan could've just gone SSJ2 himself to match Goku. Gohan also knows Goku is holding back, Gohan's current direction is that he's shooting to be the best. He wouldn't ask Goku to go all out if he didn't think he could at least manage somewhat.

I'm actually more surprised that people are more willing to accept 17 at being this tier, given we've been shown Goku can suppress himself by massive amounts (See Goku VS Krillin) in that form. Sure both 17 & Goku were holding back there, but here, Goku never states he's holding back. In fact, he uses Kaioken against Gohan. You could say it's a sign of respect, but to me it just shows that Gohan could've given SSJB a run for it's money. And hell, he did.

And as far as explaining Gohan's newfound power, beyond "It's toei and Gohan has insane potential", I've always had a theory that the Ultimate form (I hope we're comfortable calling it a form now) brought out all of Gohan's power and made transforming unnecessary. Basically what was stated, but I always equated it to Gohan's SSJ3 form. So for me, if you use SEG multipliers, Ultimate Gohan in 88 was only 4x SSJ2 Gohan in 88. Now however, I'm hoping the explanation for how Piccolo improved him will be he powered up Gohan's base state (to the point where it rivals current Goku's), and then the Ultimate form found a way to now bring out the power of a SSJB form. So now Ultimate would go from being Gohan's SSJ3, to Gohan's SSJB.

Of course, that's just wishful thinking on my part (Epsecially since Gohan's going for another form, or something?). For me, Gohan is easily the third strongest member of Universe 7.

My own list would be 1-Goku (Kaioken, or whatever power he's hiding) 2-Vegeta (Will surpass SSJB Goku once he enters the RoSaT again), 3-Gohan, 4/5-Freeza or 17 (interchangeable in my mind. Freeza should be nothing to current SSJB's, but I'd say 17's ambiguity leaves this open.), 6-Piccolo, 7-18, 8-Krillin, 9-Tien, 10-Roshi.

Now a few of these are subject to change. If Toei says "screw all the training Goku & Vegeta have done, Freeza could easily end up as 3. I'll say for Gohan, the same thing I said for 17. We need more Blue tier feats before I truly count them as Blue tier. However, I'd definitely wager it's higher chance for Gohan as Goku used Kaioken on him, after they both decided to go all out in the previous form. And I'll give Tien the benefit of the doubt, and say he's stronger than Roshi. And he could be over Krillin to, but I've always had Krillin as the strongest human.

[Bulma's Foot Masseur]

The assumed dichotomy of one base and Super Saiyan forms <---------- over here and one base and Super Saiyan Blue ----------> over there now definitely makes no sense. There's a far more gradual progression up the Super Saiyan chain than that.

I'm starting to think that Saiyan Beyond God exists/existed, but that it quit being used because Goku's base and regular SSJ forms completely caught up with it. (As did every other character apparently!) This would explain the retcon.

[TAF108]

The assumed dichotomy of one base and Super Saiyan forms <---------- over here and one base and Super Saiyan Blue ----------> over there now definitely makes no sense. There's a far more gradual progression up the Super Saiyan chain than that.

I'm starting to think that Saiyan Beyond God exists/existed, but that it quit being used because Goku's base and regular SSJ forms completely caught up with it. (As did every other character apparently!) This would explain the retcon.

I've always said that SJBG only existed in RoF, and the RoF Promotional Manga.

The DBS anime did it halfway, by having Goku (and as a result Vegeta & everyone stronger than base Goku) get a massive buff from SSJG, and has been retconning it ever since. The manga just did away with it entirely from the get go.



So I'll say this. I believe that Saiyajin Beyond God was a form that existed in the RoF film (and aforementioned manga). I believe there was divine ki in that base form. The DBS anime did it half way, by powering up Goku's base with no god ki, and then adding the old SSJ forms, creating the jumbled mess that they're trying to fix now. Toyotaro, presumably thought ahead and planned for this. Hence why Goku doesn't absorb the power of SSJG into his being in the manga, and instead gains it as a form.

Basically SJBG = Only in RoF movie era stuff. Super powered-up base that may have been retconned to be weaker = DBS anime. Base not much stronger than the Boo Saga (at least at first) that uses SSJG as a form = DBS manga.

[Saturnine]

At this point, I think Goku can just go from Buu Saga Base levels to God levels, just in his base form. Which is to say, he's as strong as he wants to be.
SS Goku = SS Gohan
=> SS2 Goku = SS2 Gohan

Now, Ultimate Gohan >> SS2 Gohan
But SS2 Goku = Ultimate Gohan

What?

Yeah to be fair Gohan wasn't at full power then. He had more in him, not sure how much more though. He used to be way stronger than SSj3 Goku, but Goku has improved and this is only slightly above Gohan's previous full power.

[ShinTenshin]

Strange episode....
First, why Tien refuse to fight seriously and don't want to injure Gohan and Piccolo ?
This is why hiding the truth about the tournament is a bad idea...
And why Gohan attack against Tien isn't fair ?
Tien target Piccolo 2 Times so he was completely without guard, too easy to beat him in the context....
And why Piccolo charging attack do absolutely no damages at all....
He seems Piccolo give less challenge to Goku than Roshi and Krilin !!!!

Piccolo at full power is now so weak ?
Goku need help to stop Roshi (Chaozu power) and need SSJ against Krilin !!!
It's total nonsense.

[namekiansaiyan]

Strange episode....
First, why Tien refuse to fight seriously and don't want to injure Gohan and Piccolo ?
This is why hiding the truth about the tournament is a bad idea...
And why Gohan attack against Tien isn't fair ?
Tien target Piccolo 2 Times so he was completely without guard, too easy to beat him in the context....
And why Piccolo charging attack do absolutely no damages at all....
He seems Piccolo give less challenge to Goku than Roshi and Krilin !!!!

Piccolo at full power is now so weak ?
Goku need help to stop Roshi (Chaozu power) and need SSJ against Krilin !!!
It's total nonsense.

This episode makes no sense. Piccolo's attack should have destroyed Goku.

[HeroR]

The assumed dichotomy of one base and Super Saiyan forms <---------- over here and one base and Super Saiyan Blue ----------> over there now definitely makes no sense. There's a far more gradual progression up the Super Saiyan chain than that.

I'm starting to think that Saiyan Beyond God exists/existed, but that it quit being used because Goku's base and regular SSJ forms completely caught up with it. (As did every other character apparently!) This would explain the retcon.

I've always said that SJBG only existed in RoF, and the RoF Promotional Manga.

The DBS anime did it halfway, by having Goku (and as a result Vegeta & everyone stronger than base Goku) get a massive buff from SSJG, and has been retconning it ever since. The manga just did away with it entirely from the get go.



So I'll say this. I believe that Saiyajin Beyond God was a form that existed in the RoF film (and aforementioned manga). I believe there was divine ki in that base form. The DBS anime did it half way, by powering up Goku's base with no god ki, and then adding the old SSJ forms, creating the jumbled mess that they're trying to fix now. Toyotaro, presumably thought ahead and planned for this. Hence why Goku doesn't absorb the power of SSJG into his being in the manga, and instead gains it as a form.

Basically SJBG = Only in RoF movie era stuff. Super powered-up base that may have been retconned to be weaker = DBS anime. Base not much stronger than the Boo Saga (at least at first) that uses SSJG as a form = DBS manga.

There is nothing suggesting that they got weaker or the power levels from Resurrection 'F' got retcon. A retcon is something acknowledged in-universe, not something you just decide. And this episode shows that opposite of Goku's base being anyway near Buu era since he managed a charged up attack from Piccolo who was able to take on Super Saiyan 2 Gohan.

[buutenks]

Goku's base power is to inconsistent to tell. He's as strong as the plot demands it to be. As for Gohn and ssj blue. Consider this, maybe ssj blue isnt a massive leap over ssj3. It simply is very good ki control and obviously a power increase over ssj3, but just 20-30% or so.

[Chillekasper]

Posted this in a topic that I opened. But don't get response:

Hen we compare the beginning of the fight we see that Gohan power up. I think its the same powerup like in his "fight" with Beerus

[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

Compare with:

[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

Also some pictures with the conversation between Goku en Gohan and their power:
[spoiler]



[/spoiler]

Do you people think that the Gohan that fought Beerus in his powered up form is the same as the Gohan in the beginning of the fight agains Tien/Goku? I think it is.
I also think that we will see more of this "ultimate" form that Gohan want to archive in the upcoming tournament. But I think we can definitely say that Gohan don't want to have a SSJ transformation or SSB form.