Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

You know, this episode did a lot for me in terms of my personal scaling and not accepting things like Two-Base Theory.

I theorized that if Gohan could match Goku in base form, and if the Ultimate form's multiplier from a "weaker-than-Freeza-in-base" to "stronger than Super Buu" remained intact after that, it would put Gohan at the level of a god, SSG or possibly even SSB.

I think this episode might have lent credence to that idea.

===

Goku could barely contend with a super-powered attack from Piccolo in base form, whom had gotten so strong that he overtook SS2 Gohan following the events of Freeza's return where he was weaker than Gohan and yet was inferior to Gohan's regained Ultimate power from before the current anime. Even then, Gohan was going blow for blow against Goku. Like I've been doing as always, I think I can safely put Goku and Gohan in base form at some level of Majin Buu, perhaps even stronger than SS3 Gotenks.

I had mathematical calculations that put the original Ultimate Gohan at 1.5 times stronger than SS3 Gotenks, who was 12.5 times stronger than SS3 Goku from the original series.

So that's a boost that's over 15,000 times from a "less-than-Freeza" base. Do that from a "Majin-Buu-level" base with the multiplier intact, and we might have the power of a god form like SSG or SSB.

[Lord Beerus]

I think this episode has solidified that Goku's base form is at the very least SSJ2 Boo arc tier, given he survived Piccolo's Explosive Wave with no issue.

[emperior]

I'm not really happy Gohan seemingly reached Goku's SSB level in less than a day of training with Piccolo. It doesn't make much sense because it wasn't even explained.
I believe he was on par with Goku's SSB because when they were flying they were exactly at the same speed, and Goku used Kaio-Ken to gain the upper-hand. It also really seems like SSB isn't much of an upgrade over SSJ2, it feels like it's just a 500x boost, which means Vegetto would be way above Goku SSB just as a SSJ, which goes against what Goku said after his first with Beerus.
I also don't know whether Gohan was or wasn't holding back against SSJ2 Goku.
Maybe after absorbing SSG's power Goku really made it his own, so SSB now is no longer an absurd upgrade over SSJ2/SSJ3? This would fit with Gowasu's statement about SSJ2 Goku rivalling the deities in terms of power.

I'm really confused at the moment, I've defended Super's power scaling when it came to things such as Trunks having a lucky hit on Black and Goku using SSB against Krillin and 17 (it was clear he wasn't using all his power) but now Goku has used Kaio-Ken, so he had to be at full power as a SSB.
Maybe, just maybe, he used it because Gohan was pressuring him of using his full power, but even if that's the case the show has done a awful job at showing it, the impression the fight gave was that Gohan = Goku SSB. Which I repeat, doesn't make sense and they didn't even try to explain it. Unless the power scale has really been shortened a lot, so it would look more like this:

- Goku: 10, SSJ: 15, SSJ2: 20, SSJ3: 25, SSB: 30
- Gohan: 10, Ultimate: 30
- Piccolo: 10
- Buu: 10
- Krillin: 5
- Tenshinan: 5
- Roshi: 5

I think this episode has solidified that Goku's base form is at the very least SSJ2 Boo arc tier, given he survived Piccolo's Explosive Wave with no issue.

It doesn't make sense. If Gohan and Goku are on par in their base, and Piccolo was seen to be stronger than SSJ2 Gohan, how can Goku be stronger than Piccolo? This would mean base Goku = SSJ2 Goku, which is non-sense.
Unless Gohan powered up his base by 100 times just by sitting his ass meditating with Piccolo. I would just say Goku was able to survive the attack because it wasn't fired at full power.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Gohan vs Goku Blue:
Gohan punched Goku Blue in the gut.
Goku punches Gohan in the head.
Goku punches again, Gohan blocks.
Gohan punches Goku upward.

Gohan lands 2 to 1. If this were a boxing match, Gohan would win.

So again, Goku was no stronger in Blue than he was in lower Super Saiyan forms. In Super, different forms just exist to sell toys.

Seriously you will tell how much punches in a fight that lasted 5 seconds? If so, Trunks SSJ2 = Vegeta SSB, after all he withstood several blows from Vegeta. And yet, Gohan did not scratch anything against Goku SSB, his punches were gone Totally irrelevant. There is nothing in the anime that indicates this level of gohan

No, I tell by how many punches one sucessfully lands in a fight when both parties are trying. Trunks SS2 didn't land anything on Vegeta SSB, Vegeta landed with impunity on Trunks SS2. Goku didn't hurt Gohan either, who still had the energy to clash with SSB kaioken Goku.

Arguing Goku Blue is stronger despite Gohan landing more on him than he did on Gohan, doesn't make any sense. The writers purposely chose to have Gohan get more unblocked shots in despite the fight being short. How is that insignificant? It wasn't accidental.

Even Trunks hit a hit on BLACK SSJ Rosé, and he was swapping punches with him, does not mean anything.

Gohan asked Goku to use all his power. That he would not use and it was clear, as Goku SSJ2 was taking care of Gohan Ultimate without any problems. These punches in Goku made as much effect as Kuririn's blows in Nappa0. It is clear that Gohan is not SSB level, since he was extremely pressured Endo by Goku SSJ2. He clearly said at the beginning of the Fight that was with all its power, has nothing to discuss about it.

[BlueBasilisk]

The assumed dichotomy of one base and Super Saiyan forms <---------- over here and one base and Super Saiyan Blue ----------> over there now definitely makes no sense. There's a far more gradual progression up the Super Saiyan chain than that.

I'm starting to think that Saiyan Beyond God exists/existed, but that it quit being used because Goku's base and regular SSJ forms completely caught up with it. (As did every other character apparently!) This would explain the retcon.

I've always said that SJBG only existed in RoF, and the RoF Promotional Manga.

The DBS anime did it halfway, by having Goku (and as a result Vegeta & everyone stronger than base Goku) get a massive buff from SSJG, and has been retconning it ever since. The manga just did away with it entirely from the get go.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

So I'll say this. I believe that Saiyajin Beyond God was a form that existed in the RoF film (and aforementioned manga). I believe there was divine ki in that base form. The DBS anime did it half way, by powering up Goku's base with no god ki, and then adding the old SSJ forms, creating the jumbled mess that they're trying to fix now. Toyotaro, presumably thought ahead and planned for this. Hence why Goku doesn't absorb the power of SSJG into his being in the manga, and instead gains it as a form.

Basically SJBG = Only in RoF movie era stuff. Super powered-up base that may have been retconned to be weaker = DBS anime. Base not much stronger than the Boo Saga (at least at first) that uses SSJG as a form = DBS manga.

What we see in Super is that Goku absorbed the power of SSG at the end of the BoG arc and had a massive spike in his power level. Vegeta then got a similar or even larger boost after training with Whis for a few months in his base form, and then the two of them saw significant growth again during episodes 18-23 during the intense training with Whis. Whis tells the Oracle Fish he wants them to train in base form because that's the path to true power and that Super Saiyan is more of a patch up for their inadequacies, similar to what Old Kai was saying in Z about Super Saiyan being all flash and noise. There's no mention of an alternate base form or anything like that. Their ki can't be sensed as SSB because they're internalizing it, but there is a way to sense godly ki with training as Vegeta is able to sense Whis' return in episode 18 and Frieza is able to directly compare his own power with SSB Goku's.

My take away in all of this is simply that we're seeing a lot of characters catch up to the power of Super Saiyan God through hard work. Vegeta did it first, then Frieza, then Hit/Magetta/Cabba, and now others are following suit. I'm sure that's a hard pill for a lot of people to swallow, but I don't think it's all that different from what happened in the Android Saga. Frieza was unfathomably strong, the premier power in the Universe with no rival until Buu and Dabura, but in the span of 4 years he went from the ultimate power to the junior leagues. Based on what we've been shown and told, Goku and Vegeta in their base forms are much stronger than Goku's SS3 was in the Buu saga.

[namekiansaiyan]

This episode is inconsistent in relation to all the other episodes in this arc. You will all be going in non-stop circles trying to relate this episode to the rest of the arc.

[GodKaio-Ken]

Goku didnt fight him long enough as a SSB to determine they were equal. All we can say is that Gohan is close, but it was obvious Gohan pressured him into using his full power.

[Beyond]

Base Goku also fought fit buu. No way in hell his base is comparable to what it was in the buu saga tier when he is serious. I'd say his base is probably stronger than SS2 Gohan from buu saga at the very least. Below fit buu but above Piccolo's max power. Gohan ultimate upgraded a lot. His other forms could easily have done the same.

Fit buu> serious Base Goku/Gohan>pre training ssj2 Gohan>=Piccolo>18> >>Pre Training SSJ Gohan>Relaxed Base Goku/pre training base Gohan> Krillin>Roshi/Tien.

[namekiansaiyan]

Goku didnt fight him long enough as a SSB to determine they were equal. All we can say is that Gohan is close, but it was obvious Gohan pressured him into using his full power.

That is Gohan's cockiness again which he has now appeared in episode 88 and 90 and both times he didn't last long. It might not seem like he is being cocky but it is a different version.

Base Goku also fought fit buu. No way in hell his base is comparable to what it was in the buu saga tier when he is serious. I'd say his base is probably stronger than SS2 Gohan from buu saga at the very least. Below fit buu but above Piccolo's max power. Gohan ultimate upgraded a lot. His other forms could easily have done the same.

Fit buu> serious Base Goku/Gohan>pre training ssj2 Gohan>=Piccolo>18> >>Pre Training SSJ Gohan>Relaxed Base Goku/pre training base Gohan> Krillin>Roshi/Tien.

How can Piccolo be below or equal to SS2 Gohan when he strangled him so easily. These episodes are starting to contradict each other.

[emperior]

This episode is inconsistent in relation to all the other episodes in this arc. You will all be going in non-stop circles trying to relate this episode to the rest of the arc.

I believe so far this episode is the worst of the arc in terms of power scaling, and probably one of the worst in all of Super.

[Simere]

Do some of you not believe Goku can power up in his base?

[Beyond]

Do some of you not believe Goku can power up in his base?

The problem is he can do it with every form and goes out of his way to do it in every form. If Goku uses SSJ against Krillin normally you would put Krillin above the people Goku doesn't use SSJ for, but I have no reason to put Krillin above Piccolo or Buu. He was legit pushed by Krillin to use SSJ to avoid a ringout. In the same scenario with Piccolo his base is sufficient. However, his base seems to have the power to have easily stopped Krillin attack. Fit buu beat base Goku, but by no means Stomped him. Piccolo attack had Goku a little winded. I don't know what all this crap means anymore. It feels like there could be some logic deep, deep down, but it's still kinda hard to make sense of it all. What base was a guy like Frost fighting? It could be a base with power above buu arc to a base to a base stronger than SS3 Gotenks by a vast margin or anywhere between.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Do some of you not believe Goku can power up in his base?

It's almost like Goku absorbed the power of a SSG and trained under an Angel or something

[DBZ Macky]

Would it be farfetched to say that Goku is beyond a SSG in base and at a level moderately superior to it as a SSB while he can adjust his base form's power (and thus his SS forms' power as well) according to his opponents?

In short, would it be too much to say that Goku is as strong as he wants to be?

[BlueBasilisk]

Goku didnt fight him long enough as a SSB to determine they were equal. All we can say is that Gohan is close, but it was obvious Gohan pressured him into using his full power.

That is Gohan's cockiness again which he has now appeared in episode 88 and 90 and both times he didn't last long. It might not seem like he is being cocky but it is a different version.

Base Goku also fought fit buu. No way in hell his base is comparable to what it was in the buu saga tier when he is serious. I'd say his base is probably stronger than SS2 Gohan from buu saga at the very least. Below fit buu but above Piccolo's max power. Gohan ultimate upgraded a lot. His other forms could easily have done the same.

Fit buu> serious Base Goku/Gohan>pre training ssj2 Gohan>=Piccolo>18> >>Pre Training SSJ Gohan>Relaxed Base Goku/pre training base Gohan> Krillin>Roshi/Tien.

How can Piccolo be below or equal to SS2 Gohan when he strangled him so easily. These episodes are starting to contradict each other.

The only thing Piccolo did in the entire fight was his Explosive Wave attack that Goku had trouble blocking, and that was just part of his combination move with Gohan. There's nothing to indicate how he stacks up against Goku. Piccolo said he thought Gohan had more hidden power to draw out in 88 and declares their training over in 90. The Gohan that Goku fights is stronger than the one Piccolo fought two episodes ago.

[namekiansaiyan]

Goku didnt fight him long enough as a SSB to determine they were equal. All we can say is that Gohan is close, but it was obvious Gohan pressured him into using his full power.

That is Gohan's cockiness again which he has now appeared in episode 88 and 90 and both times he didn't last long. It might not seem like he is being cocky but it is a different version.

Base Goku also fought fit buu. No way in hell his base is comparable to what it was in the buu saga tier when he is serious. I'd say his base is probably stronger than SS2 Gohan from buu saga at the very least. Below fit buu but above Piccolo's max power. Gohan ultimate upgraded a lot. His other forms could easily have done the same.

Fit buu> serious Base Goku/Gohan>pre training ssj2 Gohan>=Piccolo>18> >>Pre Training SSJ Gohan>Relaxed Base Goku/pre training base Gohan> Krillin>Roshi/Tien.

How can Piccolo be below or equal to SS2 Gohan when he strangled him so easily. These episodes are starting to contradict each other.

The only thing Piccolo did in the entire fight was his Explosive Wave attack that Goku had trouble blocking, and that was just part of his combination move with Gohan. There's nothing to indicate how he stacks up against Goku. Piccolo said he thought Gohan had more hidden power to draw out in 88 and declares their training over in 90. The Gohan that Goku fights is stronger than the one Piccolo fought two episodes ago.

Gohan did not get that much stronger and Gohan was not in any Super Saiyan form or ultimate form at the time and they made it seem that base Gohan is stronger than Piccolo.

Goku's previous fights in the arc contradict him being able to survive Piccolo's attack.

It also looked like the punch Goku blocked from Gohan was stronger than Piccolo's Explosive wave because of the damage even though Goku blocked the punch easily and stuggled with Piccolo's attack.

Goku at that stage should have easily been SS2 at least and maybe even SS Blue to do what he did.

[larzooma]

So what is everyone's current full list of powerlevels?

Current SSB Tier:
1. Goku
2. Vegeta - I still feel like his SSB is stronger, but Kaioken x10 is just overkill.

2nd Tier (no particular order)- still God Tier but more SSG to ROF SSB :
17 / Gohan / Frieza - unknown if Frieza trained on his stamina issue, presumably not, so I assume 17 and Gohan are near to or just below his strength, but he could actually be the weakest in this tier.

Piccolo Tier:
5. Piccolo.

4th Tier:
6. 18
7. Krillin
8. Tien
9. Roshi

EDIT: missed the 2nd post..

I agree to a point. I would actually put Gohan at or above Vegeta's level at this point. I think it's Vegeta's motivation for using the Room of Spirit and Time. I'd also put 17 and Piccolo in second tier above Frieza. RoF was a long time ago, and 17 could keep up with a much more powerful SSJB (while holding back a hidden amount of power). Piccolo also kept up with lower level Mystic Gohan at the start of their training, which puts him at a level equal or above RoF SSJB. Goku in his base form is far, far stronger now than during the RoF arc, which means his SSJB form was much weaker. Frieza hasn't been able to train or gain any power since that time.

Plus I still put Tien well above Krillin. I know we've seen some poor examples of his power as of late, but he went against a hyper powered zombie Roshi he specifically said he didn't want to hurt, and took a punch from an extremely strong base Gohan, then got knocked through a mountain. I heard someone on youtube say, Tien would have put a lot more into it if he knew the stakes of the tournament and the training. He thought it was a simple spar, so he didn't understand why they were putting so much into it. Krillin would have starting having Namek flashbacks after a gut punch form Gohan before he woke up on King Kai's planet with a gold ring around his head.

[ryan s]

So what is everyone's current full list of powerlevels?

Current SSB Tier:
1. Goku
2. Vegeta - I still feel like his SSB is stronger, but Kaioken x10 is just overkill.

2nd Tier (no particular order)- still God Tier but more SSG to ROF SSB :
17 / Gohan / Frieza - unknown if Frieza trained on his stamina issue, presumably not, so I assume 17 and Gohan are near to or just below his strength, but he could actually be the weakest in this tier.

Piccolo Tier:
5. Piccolo.

4th Tier:
6. 18
7. Krillin
8. Tien
9. Roshi

EDIT: missed the 2nd post..

I agree to a point. I would actually put Gohan at or above Vegeta's level at this point. I think it's Vegeta's motivation for using the Room of Spirit and Time. I'd also put 17 and Piccolo in second tier above Frieza. RoF was a long time ago, and 17 could keep up with a much more powerful SSJB (while holding back a hidden amount of power). Piccolo also kept up with lower level Mystic Gohan at the start of their training, which puts him at a level equal or above RoF SSJB. Goku in his base form is far, far stronger now than during the RoF arc, which means his SSJB form was much weaker. Frieza hasn't been able to train or gain any power since that time.

Plus I still put Tien well above Krillin. I know we've seen some poor examples of his power as of late, but he went against a hyper powered zombie Roshi he specifically said he didn't want to hurt, and took a punch from an extremely strong base Gohan, then got knocked through a mountain. I heard someone on youtube say, Tien would have put a lot more into it if he knew the stakes of the tournament and the training. He thought it was a simple spar, so he didn't understand why they were putting so much into it. Krillin would have starting having Namek flashbacks after a gut punch form Gohan before he woke up on King Kai's planet with a gold ring around his head.

no he is no where near vegeta

Gohan said to SSJ2 Goku that this was his current full power and he was struggling against Goku

but then he matches SSB Goku?

Super's stupid logic

so it should be Gohan = SSJ2 Goku

[larzooma]

Current SSB Tier:
1. Goku
2. Vegeta - I still feel like his SSB is stronger, but Kaioken x10 is just overkill.

2nd Tier (no particular order)- still God Tier but more SSG to ROF SSB :
17 / Gohan / Frieza - unknown if Frieza trained on his stamina issue, presumably not, so I assume 17 and Gohan are near to or just below his strength, but he could actually be the weakest in this tier.

Piccolo Tier:
5. Piccolo.

4th Tier:
6. 18
7. Krillin
8. Tien
9. Roshi

EDIT: missed the 2nd post..

I agree to a point. I would actually put Gohan at or above Vegeta's level at this point. I think it's Vegeta's motivation for using the Room of Spirit and Time. I'd also put 17 and Piccolo in second tier above Frieza. RoF was a long time ago, and 17 could keep up with a much more powerful SSJB (while holding back a hidden amount of power). Piccolo also kept up with lower level Mystic Gohan at the start of their training, which puts him at a level equal or above RoF SSJB. Goku in his base form is far, far stronger now than during the RoF arc, which means his SSJB form was much weaker. Frieza hasn't been able to train or gain any power since that time.

Plus I still put Tien well above Krillin. I know we've seen some poor examples of his power as of late, but he went against a hyper powered zombie Roshi he specifically said he didn't want to hurt, and took a punch from an extremely strong base Gohan, then got knocked through a mountain. I heard someone on youtube say, Tien would have put a lot more into it if he knew the stakes of the tournament and the training. He thought it was a simple spar, so he didn't understand why they were putting so much into it. Krillin would have starting having Namek flashbacks after a gut punch form Gohan before he woke up on King Kai's planet with a gold ring around his head.

no he is no where near vegeta

Gohan said to SSJ2 Goku that this was his current full power and he was struggling against Goku

but then he matches SSB Goku?

Super's stupid logic

so it should be Gohan = SSJ2 Goku

I think you're probably right about him being below Vegeta, but not that far behind. He seemed to hold his own for the brief moments we saw him challenge Goku as SSJB before he went Kaioken. I took Vegeta's face during the power up as in indication of shock that Gohan became so powerful. Maybe it was partly in response to Gohan, but more of a I better get in gear or he may surpass me soon type of face.

[ryan s]

I agree to a point. I would actually put Gohan at or above Vegeta's level at this point. I think it's Vegeta's motivation for using the Room of Spirit and Time. I'd also put 17 and Piccolo in second tier above Frieza. RoF was a long time ago, and 17 could keep up with a much more powerful SSJB (while holding back a hidden amount of power). Piccolo also kept up with lower level Mystic Gohan at the start of their training, which puts him at a level equal or above RoF SSJB. Goku in his base form is far, far stronger now than during the RoF arc, which means his SSJB form was much weaker. Frieza hasn't been able to train or gain any power since that time.

Plus I still put Tien well above Krillin. I know we've seen some poor examples of his power as of late, but he went against a hyper powered zombie Roshi he specifically said he didn't want to hurt, and took a punch from an extremely strong base Gohan, then got knocked through a mountain. I heard someone on youtube say, Tien would have put a lot more into it if he knew the stakes of the tournament and the training. He thought it was a simple spar, so he didn't understand why they were putting so much into it. Krillin would have starting having Namek flashbacks after a gut punch form Gohan before he woke up on King Kai's planet with a gold ring around his head.

no he is no where near vegeta

Gohan said to SSJ2 Goku that this was his current full power and he was struggling against Goku

but then he matches SSB Goku?

Super's stupid logic

so it should be Gohan = SSJ2 Goku

I think you're probably right about him being below Vegeta, but not that far behind. He seemed to hold his own for the brief moments we saw him challenge Goku as SSJB before he went Kaioken. I took Vegeta's face during the power up as in indication of shock that Gohan became so powerful. Maybe it was partly in response to Gohan, but more of a I better get in gear or he may surpass me soon type of face.

i don't know where he stands tbh, i am only guessing

power scaling in this show is officially a mess

how he can say that this is his full power and struggle with SSJ2 Goku and then suddenly challenge SSB Goku is absurd