"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[HeroR]

The promotional doesn't really work since it has Goku in his base form attack with Super Saiyan God in the background implying that he still have Super Saiyan God in his base, while the manga has Super Saiyan God as its own form.

Chapter 5 implies that Goku & Vegeta are in base with SSG power, and Black is implied to be in base & SS with SSG power, but weakened because of the body change. Toyotaro could directly introduce the base with SSG power in the next arc & briefly explain it first, or even find a way to explain it in the hypothetical chapter 4 he could make for the FnF manga.

I thought the common assumption in the manga was that they didn't absorbed godhood and that their base forms isn't that much more powerful from before since Goku has Super Saiyan God.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I thought the common assumption in the manga was that they didn't absorbed godhood and that their base forms isn't that much more powerful from before since Goku has Super Saiyan God.

Goku has both base/SS with SSG power and Super Saiyan God in the movie, so having Super Saiyan God doesn't mean anything. But as I said, there are implications that base with SSG power is a thing in the manga as well.

Goku & Vegeta were sparring in chapter 5, and Vegeta used SSB to overpower base Goku. Why would Vegeta use his most powerful form against base Goku instead of just regular Super Saiyan? Why did Goku survive SSB Vegeta's big ki blast without a scratch?

Black said that he became weaker than Goku was when they changed bodies, which is why he is still getting near-death power-ups to restore the body's original power, which he did when he achieved Super Saiyan Rosé. How can he be weaker than Goku when his base form is much stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku?

And he didn't become Super Saiyan Rosé on top of Super Saiyan, his Super Saiyan form evolved into Super Saiyan Rosé, just like Goku's Super Saiyan form with SSG power (from BoG) evolved into Super Saiyan Blue through training. If that wasn't the case, SSR Black would have been many thousands of times stronger than SSB Goku & Vegeta, but he wasn't. He didn't even become x2 stronger when he went from SS to SSR, and SSR is his version of SSB, they are the same form. Just like there was a less than x2 difference between SSG/base with SSG power & SSB in FnF. Black's body is just more powerful in the end because it is Goku's body from 1 year later.

[Tectorman]

Don't forget Vegetto's fight with Merged Zamasu.

Under the One Base Paradigm, Vegetto started at Weakened Base and blasted MZ's arm off. Then he took a Sensu bean and went to Restored Base (the same Base, just rejuvenated). He's already at a level where he can contend with MZ, and he knows he needs to make MZ's one hour time limit expire. So what does he do? Transform to SSJ, a form more than powerful enough to stay in control of the fight and that also has a low stamina drain? Oh, goodness, no. He goes SSB, a form obscenely more powerful than he was ever going to need for the purposes of this fight and that has a significant stamina drain, to boot. Why? Because... I dunno, reasons, I guess.

Under the Two-Base Theory, on the other hand, Vegetto has Base and SSJ (and presumably, SSJ2 and SSJ3), Saiyan Beyond God (what he was when he blasted MZ's arm), then he took a Sensu and went SSB (that is to say, the one single transformation above where he was). He still suffers from SSB's stamina drain, but if he felt he needed a power boost to stay in control of the fight and SSB, stamina drain and all, was the only boost he had, then it becomes an intelligently considered gamble rather than a colossal waste.

[HeroR]

Don't forget Vegetto's fight with Merged Zamasu.

Under the One Base Paradigm, Vegetto started at Weakened Base and blasted MZ's arm off. Then he took a Sensu bean and went to Restored Base (the same Base, just rejuvenated). He's already at a level where he can contend with MZ, and he knows he needs to make MZ's one hour time limit expire. So what does he do? Transform to SSJ, a form more than powerful enough to stay in control of the fight and that also has a low stamina drain? Oh, goodness, no. He goes SSB, a form obscenely more powerful than he was ever going to need for the purposes of this fight and that has a significant stamina drain, to boot. Why? Because... I dunno, reasons, I guess.

Under the Two-Base Theory, on the other hand, Vegetto has Base and SSJ (and presumably, SSJ2 and SSJ3), Saiyan Beyond God (what he was when he blasted MZ's arm), then he took a Sensu and went SSB (that is to say, the one single transformation above where he was). He still suffers from SSB's stamina drain, but if he felt he needed a power boost to stay in control of the fight and SSB, stamina drain and all, was the only boost he had, then it becomes an intelligently considered gamble rather than a colossal waste.

If his Saiyan Beyond God form was enough to blast Merged Zamasu's arm, why even bother goning Blue knowing the energy issue? He could kill Merged Zamasu. He just had to outlast him.

It is more realistic to think that Vegetto took Merged Zamasu by surprise.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Goku also pierced Zamasu's body by hitting a surprise Kamehameha. The Vegetto case was no different.

I do not see how he would beat Merged Zamasu just in his base form, nor in SSJ would that be possible. At most, SSG would be able to do that and agree that he could have used it to save energy.

But Vegetto himself in the manga said he would eradicate Zamasu completely, without even allowing him time to heal.
At the time of the Final Kamehameha this was the goal, even Zamasu being immortal.

So, although SSG is more advantageous, I believe that Vegetto's goal was to go with everything from the beginning

[Basako]

I do not see how he would beat Merged Zamasu just in his base form, nor in SSJ would that be possible. At most, SSG would be able to do that and agree that he could have used it to save energy.

Maybe, but who knows, that's speculation. Maybe he needed to go blue after all, MZ was very powerfull too. I think he drained the stamina with the Kamehameha, so he defused.

[TheSaiyanGod]

I do not see how he would beat Merged Zamasu just in his base form, nor in SSJ would that be possible. At most, SSG would be able to do that and agree that he could have used it to save energy.

Maybe, but who knows, that's speculation. Maybe he needed to go blue after all, MZ was very powerfull too. I think he drained the stamina with the Kamehameha, so he defused.

Yes, maybe even the SSG would not work. He did not know that the energy wear would compromise the merger, so I see no problem in having started with everything, especially when he wanted to defeat Zamasu quickly without letting him regenerate

[batistabus]

Goku & Vegeta were sparring in chapter 5, and Vegeta used SSB to overpower base Goku. Why would Vegeta use his most powerful form against base Goku instead of just regular Super Saiyan? Why did Goku survive SSB Vegeta's big ki blast without a scratch?

And he didn't become Super Saiyan Rosé on top of Super Saiyan, his Super Saiyan form evolved into Super Saiyan Rosé, just like Goku's Super Saiyan form with SSG power (from BoG) evolved into Super Saiyan Blue through training. If that wasn't the case, SSR Black would have been many thousands of times stronger than SSB Goku & Vegeta, but he wasn't.

Vegeta went Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan because it hadn't yet been shown in the manga, so that they could have the gag where Goku bites his tongue, and so they could change the name to Super Saiyan Blue. All of these reasons are meta.

That is not the case, Goku Black has a normal Super Saiyan form. Rosé is Blue, but simply reflects Zamasu's influence. You cannot just make up multipliers and assume that the story is following that same logic.

[Tectorman]

If his Saiyan Beyond God form was enough to blast Merged Zamasu's arm, why even bother goning Blue knowing the energy issue? He could kill Merged Zamasu. He just had to outlast him.

It is more realistic to think that Vegetto took Merged Zamasu by surprise.

He could blast off the arm, but we've seen otherwise even fighters be able to inflict similarly grievous injuries on each other. Goku disabled Piccolo's arm in the 23rd WMAT, but he still didn't have that fight in the bag. Ditto Piccolo disabling all of Goku's limbs not giving him the victory.

That puts him at "can defeat" territory, but it doesn't mean he's out of "can be defeated" territory. So the Two-Base Theory says that Vegetto has to weigh fighting as an SbG (being even in power, not dictating the fight, potentially losing, at the benefit of keeping the Fusion for the full hour) against using SSB (being able to control the fight from a superior position at the risk of defusing early). He picks the second option probably because there's no point in having a Fusion last a full hour if your opponent can still potentially defeat you before then. It also gives him, as others have mentioned above, the power to hopefully outright disintegrate MZ, immortality or not, should he decide to change his tactics to that effect. But because he doesn't know just how SSB will impact the duration of the Fusion, it was still a gamble. It turns out that he guessed wrong, but I find that a more forgivable error than being thousands of times more powerful than necessary for no real reason.

As to his first attack being a surprise, I disagree. MZ knew where they were, and that any likely attacks would be coming from that direction, and he wasn't distracted by anyone else at the time. Furthermore, he had very recently had a hole blown through himself by Goku's sudden Kamehameha, so even though he fell victim to that sort of attack then, he would likely be on guard against another such attack (assuming he's not stupid, an assumption I prefer to make with regards to all the characters wherever possible).

[jplaya2023]

I'm still holding out hope that we get gogeta in this next chapter :clap:

[OLKv3]

Vegetto went SSB because he wanted to overwhelm Zamasu's regen, and only full power could do that. He flat out says this, don't know how people missed it. He sees MZ casually regen his lost side, comments on how he had no effect, then states he'll overwhelm his regen. Apparently only Beerus tier power can do this, hence full power SSB

[HeroR]

Vegetto went SSB because he wanted to overwhelm Zamasu's regen, and only full power could do that. He flat out says this, don't know how people missed it. He sees MZ casually regen his lost side, comments on how he had no effect, then states he'll overwhelm his regen. Apparently only Beerus tier power can do this, hence full power SSB

Nothing has been implied that Beerus can kill an immortal. The same with Vegetto. Remember, Future Trunks from the anime thought Zamasu's regen had limits and tried to blow himself up.

[TAF108]

I thought the common assumption in the manga was that they didn't absorbed godhood and that their base forms isn't that much more powerful from before since Goku has Super Saiyan God.

Goku has both base/SS with SSG power and Super Saiyan God in the movie, so having Super Saiyan God doesn't mean anything. But as I said, there are implications that base with SSG power is a thing in the manga as well.

Goku & Vegeta were sparring in chapter 5, and Vegeta used SSB to overpower base Goku. Why would Vegeta use his most powerful form against base Goku instead of just regular Super Saiyan? Why did Goku survive SSB Vegeta's big ki blast without a scratch?

Black said that he became weaker than Goku was when they changed bodies, which is why he is still getting near-death power-ups to restore the body's original power, which he did when he achieved Super Saiyan Rosé. How can he be weaker than Goku when his base form is much stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku?

And he didn't become Super Saiyan Rosé on top of Super Saiyan, his Super Saiyan form evolved into Super Saiyan Rosé, just like Goku's Super Saiyan form with SSG power (from BoG) evolved into Super Saiyan Blue through training. If that wasn't the case, SSR Black would have been many thousands of times stronger than SSB Goku & Vegeta, but he wasn't. He didn't even become x2 stronger when he went from SS to SSR, and SSR is his version of SSB, they are the same form. Just like there was a less than x2 difference between SSG/base with SSG power & SSB in FnF. Black's body is just more powerful in the end because it is Goku's body from 1 year later.

Well, as we know, Toyo is very found of referencing his AF work in the DBS manga. And I can understand why, he is quite literally a fan living the dream.



There, Goku does the same thing. He goes from fighting Pikkon evenly in base, but goes to SSJ5 to overwhelm. In DBS, just replace the latter with Vegeta & SSJB. As far as Goku Black goes, I don't see a reason to think that SSJR in the manga has a different multiplier than SSJB. Black never treats it as such. He quite literally transformed from SSJ to SSJR, in the same way Goku or Vegeta would with SSJB. Black handily defeats SSJB Vegeta, it's easy to say that Black went easy on Vegeta so he didn't die. Vegeta was only able to fight Black in SSJB after training. Goku never fought SSJR Black in the manga.

I'm pretty sure when Black refers to his inability to use all of Goku's power, he means SSJB as a form.

[batistabus]

Vegetto went SSB because he wanted to overwhelm Zamasu's regen, and only full power could do that. He flat out says this, don't know how people missed it. He sees MZ casually regen his lost side, comments on how he had no effect, then states he'll overwhelm his regen. Apparently only Beerus tier power can do this, hence full power SSB

Nothing has been implied that Beerus can kill an immortal. The same with Vegetto. Remember, Future Trunks from the anime thought Zamasu's regen had limits and tried to blow himself up.

It doesn't matter whether or not he actually can kill an immortal because that's what he was trying to do regardless. OLKv3 properly explained what Vegetto was thinking. It may have worked, it may not have. It's similar to how Gowasu thinks merged Zamasu will defuse; we'll see if that actually happens or not.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

There, Goku does the same thing. He goes from fighting Pikkon evenly in base, but goes to SSJ5 to overwhelm. In DBS, just replace the latter with Vegeta & SSJB.

It still doesn't explain in-universe why would Vegeta use his most powerful, and most flawed on top of that, form against base Goku? And how did Goku survive the ki blast without a scratch?

As far as Goku Black goes, I don't see a reason to think that SSJR in the manga has a different multiplier than SSJB. Black never treats it as such.

I'm not saying that SSR has a different multiplier, on the contrary actually. But Black wasn't a regular Saiyan/Super Saiyan, he had SSG power, unlike Goku & Vegeta. The multiplier of SSR for Black is the same as SSB for Goku & Vegeta in their base with SSG power.

He quite literally transformed from SSJ to SSJR, in the same way Goku or Vegeta would with SSJB. Black handily defeats SSJB Vegeta, it's easy to say that Black went easy on Vegeta so he didn't die. Vegeta was only able to fight Black in SSJB after training. Goku never fought SSJR Black in the manga.

So, you are saying Vegeta got thousands of times stronger by training inside the RoSaT?

I'm pretty sure when Black refers to his inability to use all of Goku's power, he means SSJB as a form.

No, because he is still getting near-death power-ups while Goku doesn't. The whole point was that Black had to get multiple near-death power-ups in order to restore the power of Goku's body.

[TAF108]

It still doesn't explain in-universe why would Vegeta use his most powerful, and most flawed on top of that, form against base Goku? And how did Goku survive the ki blast without a scratch?

I was just referencing Toyo's past to point out that perhaps in his mind, they can suppress themselves by a large amount. Vegeta transformed out of reflex, or habit, however you want to describe it. He went Blue (perhaps because it's the form he's currently most comfortable with?) to get a temporary upper hand over Goku. It could easily be that Vegeta just transformed for the superior speed, then dialed back his ki blast to not kill Goku. I mean, he was much stronger than SSJ Black when they first fought, and he managed not to kill him. I don't think ki blasts are harder to restrict. Keep in mind that in universe SSJB > SSJG in transformation order. So, even then base Goku should be at minimum two transformations from Blue. So rather than state it's on some other odd in between form, I'll bank on Vegeta just not going all out.

I'm not saying that SSR has a different multiplier, on the contrary actually. But Black wasn't a regular Saiyan/Super Saiyan, he had SSG power, unlike Goku & Vegeta. The multiplier of SSR for Black is the same as SSB for Goku & Vegeta in their base with SSG power.

And how are we supposed to get that impression? This kind of relies on the whole "SSJG" in base thing, which I don't see as the case in the manga. It's a hard point for me to respond to with anything other than..where's the evidence that Black has this? Black has a powered-up base/SSJ state, but Goku & Vegeta don't? Yet then you say Goku & Vegeta do indeed have bases with SSJG power. Well, where are they? Why not use them to fight Black?

So, you are saying Vegeta got thousands of times stronger by training inside the RoSaT?

That's the implication. Vegeta was shown to be several transformations weaker (SSJB (R in Blacks case) > SSJG > SSJ3 > SSJ2 > SSJ.) But when he returns his own Blue form is now more than an even match for Black's. So yes, Vegeta would've had to have powered-up immensely from his training. How much, is up to your multipliers or whatever.

No, because he is still getting near-death power-ups while Goku doesn't. The whole point was that Black had to get multiple near-death power-ups in order to restore the power of Goku's body.

I'll refute this, by saying it's stated by Black that he could not access SSJB because he wasn't in tune with Goku's body, and that with each Zenkai he becomes more in tune, along with him growing stronger. It's only after Vegeta beats him down more that he can ascend that high. It's also stated that Goku's zenkai's were "reset" when Zamasu took his body.



It's stated by Black that he cannot transform into a SSJB when he first fights Vegeta. This is because he cannot harness Goku's full power. (I.E. Power of transformation.)



Vegeta explains this pretty well. Goku's cells are tuned to Goku's ki, so only he can bring out their real power (the SSJB state). Zamasu is not in tune with Goku's cells yet, so the best he can manage is SSJ.



He himself explains that he expected to be able to use the bodies' full power. As in SSJB. You're taking these lines to mean Goku's physical strength.



Black states once again that at first, he couldn't even transform into a SSJ, but thanks to his ability to gain Zenkai's he was able to obtain it.



Shin clarifies here. Black gets stronger from each Zenkai.



He explains it the best here. Each Zenkai brings more unity between his soul, and his body. Black needs the Zenkai's in order to obtain the power to go SSJR, in addition because he's never been in this body before (and ergo does not have the same limits), he also gets stronger. Unlike Goku & Vegeta.



Keeping in theme with the fact that Black is getting in tune with Goku's body and getting stronger, Blue is the form that surpasses SSJG. Black is pink, because he's a "true deity".



Black refers to SSJG as a lower SSJ form, because it's below Blue & Rose in terms of power and such. Is SSJG above the "SSJG" base & SSJ or, what? How does that work here, when we're being presented such a clear line of forms? I never got the impression that Black was trying to get the power of "Son Goku from 1 year later", just that he was trying to master use of the body & it's forms, in other words it's full power. But he could only do that by getting his new Saiyajin cells to bond with his divine soul, and this is only possible via Zenkai. Which, due to Goku's soul being gone, are good to go.



Well Goku calls it one transformation before blue, so we do know SSJB > SSJG > SSJ3 > SSJ2 > SSJ. Are you trying to say there's some kind of point between that's a godly powered-base & a SSJ powered by god that isn't Blue? I'm just not seeing it.

[FortuneSSJ]

-Chapter leaks next week-

Before Merged Zamasu's diffusion being a possibility I expected this next chapter being the last one, but now I have no idea how many more chapters this arc will have.

[OLKv3]

-Chapter leaks next week-

Before Merged Zamasu's diffusion being a possibility I expected this next chapter being the last one, but now I have no idea how many more chapters this arc will have.

I think this will be the final chapter, and will be just as rushed as the anime version of the ending

[jeffbr92]

This arc will end in the next chapter, maybe?

[Jinzoningen MULE]

This arc will end in the next chapter, maybe?

Possibly, but I think it'll be next month.