Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ssbgoku]

Hello guys I watched the last episode of dragon ball super and it seems to that at least comparision between Goku and gohan stay consistent.

Before that I will go and assume that piccolo didnt use full power even although he was charging attack due to look out to not kill tien shinhan. Also keep in mind that both piccolo and gohan seemed to not rest at all after training hard together, while both goku and tien took sometime to rest.

About base gohan vs base goku in tag team I was almost sure that gohan was tired out at begining so goku had advantage.

Then both ate senzu beans and powered up, ss2 goku vs ultimate form gohan. Initially it looked as gohan was holding back + understimating his father as he got hit in face but then countered and began keep up in short time.

Then goku took advantage of instant transmission to beat gohan and didnt give him time to react and counter.Then kamehameha struggle and goku calling for gohan to release more power is either reference to cell games ss2 kid gohan believing to use his full power to release even more as goku believed he can or gohan getting stronger through fight due to high potential.

Then gohan overpower goku for short time shouting for him to use full power putting his guard down as goku punch him in face and then they exchange blows then they catch their hands in lock and gohan became impatient overpowering goku and shouting to use more power as gohan seemed using even more and believing ss2 goku is too weak to either match that or push his limits. Then goku turns ssb and they seems equal for a bit then kaioken comes out and gohan is lost. So:

Kaioken ssb goku > ssb goku >= full power ultimate gohan(white intense aura) > ultimate gohan subsciounsly holding back =ss2 goku with It > ss2 goku ~ initial ultimate gohan ~ ss2 gohan > picoolo full power > ss goku ~ ss gohan > 100% base goku ~ 100% base gohan > restricted picoolo > Tien > Roshi > supressed Tien

Too bad it isnt proper counter if we take in consideration that Gohan supressed his own limits thanks to piccolo( who took his time to push gohan to limits) so he would be even ten times or at least 3 times stronger then before also keep in mind how piccolo could be beaten up if he pushed himself to limits while pushing gohan to limits ( he needed to fight him somehow) while already being inferior to buu arc ultimate gohan.

Unless I see fresh characters at least (could be great if stated also not to hold back)I wont be convinced ie: Roshi vs supressef Tien, Roshi vs heavily supressed goku, etc

In short visuals effect of aura and showings can decieve us but what matter is statement, not gag scene and serious face expression xd

[ZombieVito]

Too bad it isnt proper counter if we take in consideration that Gohan supressed his own limits thanks to piccolo( who took his time to push gohan to limits) so he would be even ten times or at least 3 times stronger then before also keep in mind how piccolo could be beaten up if he pushed himself to limits while pushing gohan to limits ( he needed to fight him somehow) while already being inferior to buu arc ultimate gohan.

Unless I see fresh characters at least (could be great if stated also not to hold back)I wont be convinced ie: Roshi vs supressef Tien, Roshi vs heavily supressed goku, etc

In short visuals effect of aura and showings can decieve us but what matter is statement, not gag scene and serious face expression xd

Base Gohan in episode 88 is the same base Gohan in episode 90. He only got his fighting spirit back and improved his Ultimate form.

[TheMikado]

i don't know where he stands tbh, i am only guessing

power scaling in this show is officially a mess

how he can say that this is his full power and struggle with SSJ2 Goku and then suddenly challenge SSB Goku is absurd

It's been a mess since the beginning basically and every arc has just been progressively worse. The power scaling from arc to arc is especially bad, but in this arc it seems to be episode to episode

The only thing this episode did for me is confirm the jump between power levels and "forms" is dramatically smaller. To the point where the form shifting becomes annoying because you have dramatic shifts in presentations with far less payoff.

I think I remember someone else here saying that same thing a few weeks back

I think people are simply getting too hung up on the multipliers, the numbers I mean. I don't think the numbers are meant to be as high as they used to be. For instance I don't think SSB is 50x SSG. I also don't think SSJ is a 50x boost anymore. Out of universe, the forms are as strong as the plot needs them to be now, much less consistent than DBZ, but in-universe it's probably because they are accessing more power in base and so their transformations don't need to be as drastic. I reason this do to how well base Gohan did against the likes of Shisami and Tagoma and how base Goku could actually stand up to Hit for a while without transforming whereas SSB Vegeta was outright destroyed.

I honestly like that the transformation multipliers aren't so high. Power inflation annoyed me to death by the time the Buu saga hit."

That's all well and good but it would be nice if they let us KNOW, right now it's impossible to rectify everything we learned in Z with what Super is showing us. I love the lore so it's not fun for me to have stuff thrown out the window.

[Kishido]

Goku this episode said how he was looking for STRONG opponents to fight but Gohan is right there.

Vegeta as well... But who cares LOL.

[Ki Breaker]

Goku this episode said how he was looking for STRONG opponents to fight but Gohan is right there.

Vegeta as well... But who cares LOL.

He knows the Prince has fallen, even Vegeta knows it after this episode, dude was done after he felt SSBKK

[TAF108]

The assumed dichotomy of one base and Super Saiyan forms <---------- over here and one base and Super Saiyan Blue ----------> over there now definitely makes no sense. There's a far more gradual progression up the Super Saiyan chain than that.

I'm starting to think that Saiyan Beyond God exists/existed, but that it quit being used because Goku's base and regular SSJ forms completely caught up with it. (As did every other character apparently!) This would explain the retcon.

I've always said that SJBG only existed in RoF, and the RoF Promotional Manga.

The DBS anime did it halfway, by having Goku (and as a result Vegeta & everyone stronger than base Goku) get a massive buff from SSJG, and has been retconning it ever since. The manga just did away with it entirely from the get go.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

So I'll say this. I believe that Saiyajin Beyond God was a form that existed in the RoF film (and aforementioned manga). I believe there was divine ki in that base form. The DBS anime did it half way, by powering up Goku's base with no god ki, and then adding the old SSJ forms, creating the jumbled mess that they're trying to fix now. Toyotaro, presumably thought ahead and planned for this. Hence why Goku doesn't absorb the power of SSJG into his being in the manga, and instead gains it as a form.

Basically SJBG = Only in RoF movie era stuff. Super powered-up base that may have been retconned to be weaker = DBS anime. Base not much stronger than the Boo Saga (at least at first) that uses SSJG as a form = DBS manga.

What we see in Super is that Goku absorbed the power of SSG at the end of the BoG arc and had a massive spike in his power level. Vegeta then got a similar or even larger boost after training with Whis for a few months in his base form, and then the two of them saw significant growth again during episodes 18-23 during the intense training with Whis. Whis tells the Oracle Fish he wants them to train in base form because that's the path to true power and that Super Saiyan is more of a patch up for their inadequacies, similar to what Old Kai was saying in Z about Super Saiyan being all flash and noise. There's no mention of an alternate base form or anything like that. Their ki can't be sensed as SSB because they're internalizing it, but there is a way to sense godly ki with training as Vegeta is able to sense Whis' return in episode 18 and Frieza is able to directly compare his own power with SSB Goku's.

My take away in all of this is simply that we're seeing a lot of characters catch up to the power of Super Saiyan God through hard work. Vegeta did it first, then Frieza, then Hit/Magetta/Cabba, and now others are following suit. I'm sure that's a hard pill for a lot of people to swallow, but I don't think it's all that different from what happened in the Android Saga. Frieza was unfathomably strong, the premier power in the Universe with no rival until Buu and Dabura, but in the span of 4 years he went from the ultimate power to the junior leagues. Based on what we've been shown and told, Goku and Vegeta in their base forms are much stronger than Goku's SS3 was in the Buu saga.

There's no mention of an alternative base form, because one doesn't exist. I've had no problem with characters being that strong, though that's why I think the "two-base theory" exists, just an excuse to say certain characters (Mostly the universe 6 fighters) aren't so incredibly strong for no reason. (I say no reason, because Whis said Vegeta could never train to get this strong by training the way he does, and then other characters proceed to reach that level of strength. Whatever the excuse is, just makes me think Whis was full of.)

My only point was that the DBS anime has had trouble portraying the strength of their base forms, by having Son Goku transform & such when it shouldn't be necessary due to his strength supposedly being much stronger than everyone else. I remember when Gohan & Goku first sparred, and people were saying Gohan had surpassed SSJG.

In my mind, it's the same problem people have with GT Goku's base being exceedingly strong. It doesn't "make sense" or fit their preconceptions about how strong Goku should be able to grow, so they deny it. That's why I said "Super-strong bases, that may have been retconned to be weaker", they should be SSJG level from RoF & up, but they grow increasingly unimpressive. My only explanation is that they've retconned their base forms to be a bit weaker in the anime. But not nearly as "weak" as their Boo Saga base forms, and definitely above SSJ3 (Boo Saga) as you mentioned.

[TAF108]

The assumed dichotomy of one base and Super Saiyan forms <---------- over here and one base and Super Saiyan Blue ----------> over there now definitely makes no sense. There's a far more gradual progression up the Super Saiyan chain than that.

I'm starting to think that Saiyan Beyond God exists/existed, but that it quit being used because Goku's base and regular SSJ forms completely caught up with it. (As did every other character apparently!) This would explain the retcon.

I've always said that SJBG only existed in RoF, and the RoF Promotional Manga.

The DBS anime did it halfway, by having Goku (and as a result Vegeta & everyone stronger than base Goku) get a massive buff from SSJG, and has been retconning it ever since. The manga just did away with it entirely from the get go.



So I'll say this. I believe that Saiyajin Beyond God was a form that existed in the RoF film (and aforementioned manga). I believe there was divine ki in that base form. The DBS anime did it half way, by powering up Goku's base with no god ki, and then adding the old SSJ forms, creating the jumbled mess that they're trying to fix now. Toyotaro, presumably thought ahead and planned for this. Hence why Goku doesn't absorb the power of SSJG into his being in the manga, and instead gains it as a form.

Basically SJBG = Only in RoF movie era stuff. Super powered-up base that may have been retconned to be weaker = DBS anime. Base not much stronger than the Boo Saga (at least at first) that uses SSJG as a form = DBS manga.

There is nothing suggesting that they got weaker or the power levels from Resurrection 'F' got retcon. A retcon is something acknowledged in-universe, not something you just decide. And this episode shows that opposite of Goku's base being anyway near Buu era since he managed a charged up attack from Piccolo who was able to take on Super Saiyan 2 Gohan.

I'm not suggesting Goku or Vegeta's bases in the anime are suddenly as "weak" as they were in the Boo Saga, their base forms are obviously far above most everything in the Boo Saga. (Copy Vegeta tanking a blow from Super Gotenks, Goku fighting with Fit Boo -even if ended up being a waste of time-, etc.) So I think you must've misunderstood what I said. I'm just saying that any sense of consistency with their base forms being as strong as, say SSJG Goku from the BoG arc, is nonexistent. Because Toei is unable to keep any internal consistency.

What you just mentioned is a good example. Piccolo literally strangled SSJ2 Gohan. Base Gohan was on par with Goku, who then proceeded to tank Piccolo's attack. (Though with difficulty, I believe he mentioned.) So there's an issue there. Did Gohan get over a 100x stronger, or did Piccolo get weaker? And in that same vein, if Goku was sparring against Gohan (who would be around or a bit over SSJ3 in base, depending on how strong you say Lavenda is) is Goku's base now only Boo Saga tier? Of course I'd take it as Gohan just having powered-up, but if not, there's a lack of consistency here.

So while I thank you for picking this post in particular to respond to, allow me to rephrase/reexplain what I meant. I was not trying to say, or saying that RoF specifically was retconned. I think you may be reading a bit to much into the image I posted (Which has the RoF promotional manga image) Toei's had trouble keeping consistent how strong base Goku & Base Vegeta are, and it could be due to them trying to make their bases below SSJG Goku from the BoG arc. I was merely saying it's possible that the reason it's not consistent, is because Toei is attempting to retcon it. Hence why I said may have in my original post. The point of my post was to explain how I feel SJBG exists across the 3 mediums of "Super".

Which are as I mentioned. In the films, it seems to have divine ki. In the anime, it appears to have just been a power buff & only SSJB has divine ki. And in the manga, it doesn't exist. And SSJG is still a form.

[Marlowe89]

I imagine this is probably what happened, but I wouldn't be surprised if Goku's Base got powered down like the rest of him as a way to keep him a lot weaker than Beerus, a mentality that didn't get overtly brought up until late into Super.

The manga just putting back SSGod in lue of Toriyama's proposed enhanced Base that's on par with God or fueled by it from movie also points to a change of heart late in the game.

Yeah, the manga seems to throw away the "Godly base" concept entirely in favor of just having Goku transform into Super Saiyan God. More than likely that's Toyotaro's way of making things less confusing.

To be clear, it seems that for the anime's purposes Goku can become a Super Saiyan Blue if A.) he switches to his Godly power in base and then transforms into a Super Saiyan, B.) he switches to his Godly power while already in his ordinary Super Saiyan form, or C.) he uses his Godly power and transforms into a Super Saiyan simultaneously. The former method only seems to have been used in the RoF arc, whereas the latter two methods are used the majority of the time primarily to prevent any potential viewer confusion so that Goku is only utilizing one base throughout the storyline. In-universe, Goku simply doesn't need his Godly base anymore as he can simply transition over to Super Saiyan Blue whenever he intends to tap into that level of power.

[larzooma]

The only thing this episode did for me is confirm the jump between power levels and "forms" is dramatically smaller. To the point where the form shifting becomes annoying because you have dramatic shifts in presentations with far less payoff.

I actually felt the opposite in episode 88. When Gohan goes all out to turn SSJ2, Piccolo quickly powers up to what seems to be an equal level without much exertion. Part of improving as a fighter in DB, means expending less energy powering up or transforming. I picture Piccolo losing his shit against 17, yelling and shaking the earth to increase his power enough to keep pace. Now he taught himself with years of training to quickly jump in level without a high level of exertion, and possibly as important, not as much of an indication to someone who can't read your power that something is drastically changing in your ability. Gohan may have been doing something similar once he already turned Mystic by powering up as he flew towards Goku without the need to scream for 3 episodes and crack 7 mountains in half lol.

What I'm saying is cycling through 2-3 levels of power so quickly seems to cheapen them and shorten the gap between he levels. Basically it makes it feel like a SSJ2 isn't that much stronger than SSJ or that base is only slightly inferior to SSJ. I'm saying the forms not longer seem to denote the power and power gap they once seemed to represent and it wouldn't shock me if Base Gohan was able to get a few hits in on SSJ3 or SSB Goku.

I have to agree with you on that point. Most of the transformations seem almost useless given the power the characters posses in their base forms. They almost pick and choose at random simply to gauge the other opponent before going with their final transformation, or in the case of someone like Piccolo, power up with enough ki to challenge the opponent. I was half joking about the old power ups but you would see a markedly different fighter once he finished raising his power. He would often go from hardly keeping up or staying evenly matched, to suddenly stomping the opponent until they decided to raise their level. I really think the characters are incredibly strong in their base form, and transformations for most fighters are simply useless (already stronger than the opponent without a multiplier) or useless (far too weak to challenge the opponent).

Hopefully we will see some new transformations in the next few arcs following different paths, in the case of the Sayians. Possibly introduce something for other characters like Piccolo accessing God Ki, or Tien tapping into his ancestry by accessing hidden power from his third eye. They could offer Buu fans a refund in the form of a transition to a leaner, smarter, more powerful character after his sleep. Frieza may stick around giving us access to all types of possible new forms. Plus I think they'll keep some focus on the other universes, giving us a larger cast of characters to pick from in future arcs.

[dbgtFO]

Goku this episode said how he was looking for STRONG opponents to fight but Gohan is right there.

Vegeta as well... But who cares LOL.

At the beginning of the arc, Goku sought him out, but Vegeta was waiting for his child to be born.
Yes, I know you are joking, but it is addressed in-universe.

[ChiefWamsutta]

There's no mention of an alternative base form, because one doesn't exist. I've had no problem with characters being that strong, though that's why I think the "two-base theory" exists, just an excuse to say certain characters (Mostly the universe 6 fighters) aren't so incredibly strong for no reason. (I say no reason, because Whis said Vegeta could never train to get this strong by training the way he does, and then other characters proceed to reach that level of strength. Whatever the excuse is, just makes me think Whis was full of.)

My only point was that the DBS anime has had trouble portraying the strength of their base forms, by having Son Goku transform & such when it shouldn't be necessary due to his strength supposedly being much stronger than everyone else. I remember when Gohan & Goku first sparred, and people were saying Gohan had surpassed SSJG.

In my mind, it's the same problem people have with GT Goku's base being exceedingly strong. It doesn't "make sense" or fit their preconceptions about how strong Goku should be able to grow, so they deny it. That's why I said "Super-strong bases, that may have been retconned to be weaker", they should be SSJG level from RoF & up, but they grow increasingly unimpressive. My only explanation is that they've retconned their base forms to be a bit weaker in the anime. But not nearly as "weak" as their Boo Saga base forms, and definitely above SSJ3 (Boo Saga) as you mentioned.

I believe in the Two-Base Theory for a few reasons:

1) SS1 Goku was SSG level and then was able to be matched by a Buu Saga power SS1 Gohan.
2) Base Goku was able to fight Monaka-Beerus. He wasn't holding back.
3) Base Goku fought evenly with a Base Gohan in Ep. 90, and he wasn't holding back here either.
4) Unsuppressed Base Goku fought Final Form Frieza in RoF.

How could Goku be able to evenly fight Base Gohan who is far less than Final Form Frieza who is even weaker than Beerus? The answer can't just be, "Oh, he was suppressed," because that is just flat out wrong. Goku was trying in each of those fights. We also can't just consider this to be filler.

Despite all this Super Saiyan Blue is defined as a Saiyan with god-power going Super Saiyan. Super Saiyan 1 happens when a Saiyan without god-power goes Super Saiyan.

From 1:25 to 2:00, Goku is in SS1 then drops down to a Base form before transforming into SSBlue. The fact that he does that sometimes is an indicator that he is using his god-power in Base.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAibmdtd3-g#t=01m25s

Looking at the manga it uses Base/SS1/SS2/SS3/SSGod/SSBlue, and the anime needs to fill that hole of not using SSGod. The anime uses Base/SS1/SS2/SS3/Black-haired SSGod/SSBlue. Just like not every form is used all the time, we don't need to see the black-haired SSGod form for it to be there.

The theory is not people just finding an excuse to say something -- that's just pure ignorance on your part, bro. People who believe in it don't just say, "Well, fuck it. I hate change and don't want Goku to be stronger, so we'll make up reasons for him to be weak. Why don't we just say he has two bases?" That is not it at all. We're taking a holistic view at things. This community has integrated the name Super Saiyan Rage as part of the canon without a fuss. ... Yet, it was never called that in the official anime. The idea of a black-haired SSGod has been hinted at in different media forms and there are small instances of it in the anime. You're right that it never has been flat-out said it exists. But it took over twenty years before we realized that Ultimate is a transformation that can be unlocked; most folks thought it was Gohan just drawing out his full power through a kiai. This will be talked about at some point in some form of media or another; I'll bet on it.

[BWri]

That's all well and good but it would be nice if they let us KNOW, right now it's impossible to rectify everything we learned in Z with what Super is showing us. I love the lore so it's not fun for me to have stuff thrown out the window.

I agree with everything you said there. I've just been jaded on this stuff for the longest time due to how Toriyama san and co have been haphazardly handling established rules and lore, so if they are going to start changing things around I'd rather they do it in a way that's more enjoyable and that opens up room for a more diverse roster of characters. Changing the rules around only to benefit Goku and Vegeta was never any fun for me, because those two are already quite similar. That's why I never liked the power inflation in the Buu saga, when all of a sudden it looked like the base Saiyans were even above Piccolo (never believed that btw). But changing the rules around (such as lowering the multipliers on transformations, allowing skill to actually have an effect on stronger opponents) opens the show up in a way that it's previous philosophy of Power > All never could have. And then there's the fact that none of the multipliers have established numbers in the show, since we had no scouter readings when Goku turned SSJ or after. When I consider that, then it doesn't bother me as much that the blonde SSJ forms are more fluid and somewhat interchangeable nowadays.

As far as letting us KNOW anything, I don't think that's going to happen. The only thing I'm all but certain on at this point is that the Super staff is most comfortable with the vague-ness of the show. That's been clear since the beginning and they often take advantage of that vague-ness to do whatever they want with the narrative or power scale.

[ChiefWamsutta]

I imagine this is probably what happened, but I wouldn't be surprised if Goku's Base got powered down like the rest of him as a way to keep him a lot weaker than Beerus, a mentality that didn't get overtly brought up until late into Super.

The manga just putting back SSGod in lue of Toriyama's proposed enhanced Base that's on par with God or fueled by it from movie also points to a change of heart late in the game.

Yeah, the manga seems to throw away the "Godly base" concept entirely in favor of just having Goku transform into Super Saiyan God. More than likely that's Toyotaro's way of making things less confusing.

To be clear, it seems that for the anime's purposes Goku can become a Super Saiyan Blue if A.) he switches to his Godly power in base and then transforms into a Super Saiyan, B.) he switches to his Godly power while already in his ordinary Super Saiyan form, or C.) he uses his Godly power and transforms into a Super Saiyan simultaneously. The former method only seems to have been used in the RoF arc, whereas the latter two methods are used the majority of the time primarily to prevent any potential viewer confusion so that Goku is only utilizing one base throughout the storyline. In-universe, Goku simply doesn't need his Godly base anymore as he can simply transition over to Super Saiyan Blue whenever he intends to tap into that level of power.

Actually, Goku uses Option A in Ep. 84.

From 1:25 to 2:00, Goku is in SS1 then drops down to a Base form before transforming into SSBlue. The fact that he does that sometimes is an indicator that he is using his god-power in Base.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAibmdtd3-g#t=01m25s

[ekrolo2]

I imagine this is probably what happened, but I wouldn't be surprised if Goku's Base got powered down like the rest of him as a way to keep him a lot weaker than Beerus, a mentality that didn't get overtly brought up until late into Super.

The manga just putting back SSGod in lue of Toriyama's proposed enhanced Base that's on par with God or fueled by it from movie also points to a change of heart late in the game.

Yeah, the manga seems to throw away the "Godly base" concept entirely in favor of just having Goku transform into Super Saiyan God. More than likely that's Toyotaro's way of making things less confusing.

To be clear, it seems that for the anime's purposes Goku can become a Super Saiyan Blue if A.) he switches to his Godly power in base and then transforms into a Super Saiyan, B.) he switches to his Godly power while already in his ordinary Super Saiyan form, or C.) he uses his Godly power and transforms into a Super Saiyan simultaneously. The former method only seems to have been used in the RoF arc, whereas the latter two methods are used the majority of the time primarily to prevent any potential viewer confusion so that Goku is only utilizing one base throughout the storyline. In-universe, Goku simply doesn't need his Godly base anymore as he can simply transition over to Super Saiyan Blue whenever he intends to tap into that level of power.

Actually, Goku uses Option A in Ep. 84.

From 1:25 to 2:00, Goku is in SS1 then drops down to a Base form before transforming into SSBlue. The fact that he does that sometimes is an indicator that he is using his god-power in Base.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAibmdtd3-g#t=01m25s

Thus bringing me back to a question I've posed before: if there are two Base forms, why can't we have some visual distinction between them?

[ChiefWamsutta]

Yeah, the manga seems to throw away the "Godly base" concept entirely in favor of just having Goku transform into Super Saiyan God. More than likely that's Toyotaro's way of making things less confusing.

To be clear, it seems that for the anime's purposes Goku can become a Super Saiyan Blue if A.) he switches to his Godly power in base and then transforms into a Super Saiyan, B.) he switches to his Godly power while already in his ordinary Super Saiyan form, or C.) he uses his Godly power and transforms into a Super Saiyan simultaneously. The former method only seems to have been used in the RoF arc, whereas the latter two methods are used the majority of the time primarily to prevent any potential viewer confusion so that Goku is only utilizing one base throughout the storyline. In-universe, Goku simply doesn't need his Godly base anymore as he can simply transition over to Super Saiyan Blue whenever he intends to tap into that level of power.

Actually, Goku uses Option A in Ep. 84.

From 1:25 to 2:00, Goku is in SS1 then drops down to a Base form before transforming into SSBlue. The fact that he does that sometimes is an indicator that he is using his god-power in Base.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAibmdtd3-g#t=01m25s

Thus bringing me back to a question I've posed before: if there are two Base forms, why can't we have some visual distinction between them?

I agree with you. I also think it's bullshit that we don't even have any visual clue. It's not talked about in the show, and it takes super hardcore fans to figure out this stuff. What a shame.

From 14:30 to 15:12, we see Gohan in Base form without the bang and once he transforms into Ultimate he has the bang. This made me very satisfied.
http://www.crunchyroll.com/dragon-ball- ... -90-733829

[ekrolo2]

I agree with you. I also think it's bullshit that we don't even have any visual clue. It's not talked about in the show, and it takes super hardcore fans to figure out this stuff. What a shame.

From 14:30 to 15:12, we see Gohan in Base form without the bang and once he transforms into Ultimate he has the bang. This made me very satisfied.
http://www.crunchyroll.com/dragon-ball- ... -90-733829

That's more visual stuff they botch
Gohan already has the Ultimate eyes before Ultimate even appears and it shouldn't really change his hair since its his Base form with 100% to all his power.

[Bullza]

Did the episode mention Ultimate Gohan being stronger than he was before ​in the Buu saga?

It was mentioned in a preview that he was going to be but has that already happened or is it something that is going to happen following this episode? If it's the latter then Ultimate Gohan would just be as strong as he was in the Buu saga.

[HeroR]

I'm not suggesting Goku or Vegeta's bases in the anime are suddenly as "weak" as they were in the Boo Saga, their base forms are obviously far above most everything in the Boo Saga. (Copy Vegeta tanking a blow from Super Gotenks, Goku fighting with Fit Boo -even if ended up being a waste of time-, etc.) So I think you must've misunderstood what I said. I'm just saying that any sense of consistency with their base forms being as strong as, say SSJG Goku from the BoG arc, is nonexistent. Because Toei is unable to keep any internal consistency.

What you just mentioned is a good example. Piccolo literally strangled SSJ2 Gohan. Base Gohan was on par with Goku, who then proceeded to tank Piccolo's attack. (Though with difficulty, I believe he mentioned.) So there's an issue there. Did Gohan get over a 100x stronger, or did Piccolo get weaker? And in that same vein, if Goku was sparring against Gohan (who would be around or a bit over SSJ3 in base, depending on how strong you say Lavenda is) is Goku's base now only Boo Saga tier? Of course I'd take it as Gohan just having powered-up, but if not, there's a lack of consistency here.

So while I thank you for picking this post in particular to respond to, allow me to rephrase/reexplain what I meant. I was not trying to say, or saying that RoF specifically was retconned. I think you may be reading a bit to much into the image I posted (Which has the RoF promotional manga image) Toei's had trouble keeping consistent how strong base Goku & Base Vegeta are, and it could be due to them trying to make their bases below SSJG Goku from the BoG arc. I was merely saying it's possible that the reason it's not consistent, is because Toei is attempting to retcon it. Hence why I said may have in my original post. The point of my post was to explain how I feel SJBG exists across the 3 mediums of "Super".

Which are as I mentioned. In the films, it seems to have divine ki. In the anime, it appears to have just been a power buff & only SSJB has divine ki. And in the manga, it doesn't exist. And SSJG is still a form.

I see, that's fair. I thing is that Gohan in general got stronger, which is why he was even with Goku in his base. Most of his power seems to come from him overcoming his mental block, which is probably why he was meditating.

Dragon Ball doesn't scale the way you think. Just look at the Cell Saga. Did anyone actually feel like they were stronger compared to their Namek Saga counterparts.

[LowRyder2005]

Did the episode mention Ultimate Gohan being stronger than he was before ​in the Buu saga?

It was mentioned in a preview that he was going to be but has that already happened or is it something that is going to happen following this episode? If it's the latter then Ultimate Gohan would just be as strong as he was in the Buu saga.

I can confirm it was mentioned when referencing this very episode.

[TAF108]

There's no mention of an alternative base form, because one doesn't exist. I've had no problem with characters being that strong, though that's why I think the "two-base theory" exists, just an excuse to say certain characters (Mostly the universe 6 fighters) aren't so incredibly strong for no reason. (I say no reason, because Whis said Vegeta could never train to get this strong by training the way he does, and then other characters proceed to reach that level of strength. Whatever the excuse is, just makes me think Whis was full of.)

My only point was that the DBS anime has had trouble portraying the strength of their base forms, by having Son Goku transform & such when it shouldn't be necessary due to his strength supposedly being much stronger than everyone else. I remember when Gohan & Goku first sparred, and people were saying Gohan had surpassed SSJG.

In my mind, it's the same problem people have with GT Goku's base being exceedingly strong. It doesn't "make sense" or fit their preconceptions about how strong Goku should be able to grow, so they deny it. That's why I said "Super-strong bases, that may have been retconned to be weaker", they should be SSJG level from RoF & up, but they grow increasingly unimpressive. My only explanation is that they've retconned their base forms to be a bit weaker in the anime. But not nearly as "weak" as their Boo Saga base forms, and definitely above SSJ3 (Boo Saga) as you mentioned.

I believe in the Two-Base Theory for a few reasons:

1) SS1 Goku was SSG level and then was able to be matched by a Buu Saga power SS1 Gohan.
2) Base Goku was able to fight Monaka-Beerus. He wasn't holding back.
3) Base Goku fought evenly with a Base Gohan in Ep. 90, and he wasn't holding back here either.
4) Unsuppressed Base Goku fought Final Form Frieza in RoF.

How could Goku be able to evenly fight Base Gohan who is far less than Final Form Frieza who is even weaker than Beerus? The answer can't just be, "Oh, he was suppressed," because that is just flat out wrong. Goku was trying in each of those fights. We also can't just consider this to be filler.

Despite all this Super Saiyan Blue is defined as a Saiyan with god-power going Super Saiyan. Super Saiyan 1 happens when a Saiyan without god-power goes Super Saiyan.

From 1:25 to 2:00, Goku is in SS1 then drops down to a Base form before transforming into SSBlue. The fact that he does that sometimes is an indicator that he is using his god-power in Base.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAibmdtd3-g#t=01m25s

Looking at the manga it uses Base/SS1/SS2/SS3/SSGod/SSBlue, and the anime needs to fill that hole of not using SSGod. The anime uses Base/SS1/SS2/SS3/Black-haired SSGod/SSBlue. Just like not every form is used all the time, we don't need to see the black-haired SSGod form for it to be there.

The theory is not people just finding an excuse to say something -- that's just pure ignorance on your part, bro. People who believe in it don't just say, "Well, fuck it. I hate change and don't want Goku to be stronger, so we'll make up reasons for him to be weak. Why don't we just say he has two bases?" That is not it at all. We're taking a holistic view at things. This community has integrated the name Super Saiyan Rage as part of the canon without a fuss. ... Yet, it was never called that in the official anime. The idea of a black-haired SSGod has been hinted at in different media forms and there are small instances of it in the anime. You're right that it never has been flat-out said it exists. But it took over twenty years before we realized that Ultimate is a transformation that can be unlocked; most folks thought it was Gohan just drawing out his full power through a kiai. This will be talked about at some point in some form of media or another; I'll bet on it.

My issue with the "two-base theory" is that it hinges on Goku using god ki in his base form. For this theory to be accurate, it would have to mean Goku is sometimes using Divine Ki in his base, and other times he's not. I don't put stock in it because I haven't seen any reason why I should. The biggest indicator that Goku is using divine ki in SSJB is the fact that his ki cannot be sensed, and that, as has been stated a lot recently, the "pressure" is intense.

Now in my experience the two-base theory has only mostly been used to prevent characters like Cabba & Magetta from being exceedingly strong. Of course, this doesn't mean everyone who believes in the two base theory believes in it for that reason. And I suppose I should've clarified that.

My own, I suppose reason why I don't believe in this theory is this.

1. Base Goku is never described as being someone they cannot sense, or described as having incredible pressure. If I recall correctly, the pressure thing is a recent one. But if they wanted us to know that there's a second base (one with divine ki) why hasn't there been a line about how Goku's base form cannot be sensed like his SSJB form? On the contrary to that, we have lines from Krillin & Gohan saying Goku's base form has "terrifying power" compared to SSJ Goku who fought Beerus.

Going off this point, that was Gohan & Krillin talking about the Goku who fought Freeza. Since Goku's ki was able to be sensed at that point, and this is one of the times you site Goku using his second, godly base. What's the difference? If they can both be sensed, how are we, as the viewer, supposed to distinguish between the two?

http://imgur.com/vdcsNEk
http://imgur.com/OPQvLNA
http://imgur.com/JHW2cBN
http://imgur.com/cJJBz5i

As I mentioned before, this just seems like inconsistency on Toei's part. The main thing of the two Base theory is that one base has divine ki, while the other does not. However Goku V. Freeza, the fight where Divine ki would probably be most useful, Goku's ki can be sensed fine by the Z Fighters. If the only difference between Goku's "two bases" then is power-level, I don't see how I'm supposed to say there is a difference. When Goku's doing something impressive, it's the stronger base. But when he's doing something not as impressive, it's the weaker base. Surely you can see why I'd be hesitant to buy into this theory?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-zzmCiNfUY

And to counter you previous point, here Goku goes directly from SSJ to SSJB. At the 11 second mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Q5vGJdCSsQ

In yesterday's episode, he went from SSJ2 to SSJB. 8 Second mark.