Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[TAF108]

I'm not suggesting Goku or Vegeta's bases in the anime are suddenly as "weak" as they were in the Boo Saga, their base forms are obviously far above most everything in the Boo Saga. (Copy Vegeta tanking a blow from Super Gotenks, Goku fighting with Fit Boo -even if ended up being a waste of time-, etc.) So I think you must've misunderstood what I said. I'm just saying that any sense of consistency with their base forms being as strong as, say SSJG Goku from the BoG arc, is nonexistent. Because Toei is unable to keep any internal consistency.

What you just mentioned is a good example. Piccolo literally strangled SSJ2 Gohan. Base Gohan was on par with Goku, who then proceeded to tank Piccolo's attack. (Though with difficulty, I believe he mentioned.) So there's an issue there. Did Gohan get over a 100x stronger, or did Piccolo get weaker? And in that same vein, if Goku was sparring against Gohan (who would be around or a bit over SSJ3 in base, depending on how strong you say Lavenda is) is Goku's base now only Boo Saga tier? Of course I'd take it as Gohan just having powered-up, but if not, there's a lack of consistency here.

So while I thank you for picking this post in particular to respond to, allow me to rephrase/reexplain what I meant. I was not trying to say, or saying that RoF specifically was retconned. I think you may be reading a bit to much into the image I posted (Which has the RoF promotional manga image) Toei's had trouble keeping consistent how strong base Goku & Base Vegeta are, and it could be due to them trying to make their bases below SSJG Goku from the BoG arc. I was merely saying it's possible that the reason it's not consistent, is because Toei is attempting to retcon it. Hence why I said may have in my original post. The point of my post was to explain how I feel SJBG exists across the 3 mediums of "Super".

Which are as I mentioned. In the films, it seems to have divine ki. In the anime, it appears to have just been a power buff & only SSJB has divine ki. And in the manga, it doesn't exist. And SSJG is still a form.

I see, that's fair. I thing is that Gohan in general got stronger, which is why he was even with Goku in his base. Most of his power seems to come from him overcoming his mental block, which is probably why he was meditating.

Dragon Ball doesn't scale the way you think. Just look at the Cell Saga. Did anyone actually feel like they were stronger compared to their Namek Saga counterparts.

Y'know, that's the second time I've heard someone say that. I'm not particularly sure what "feels stronger" should mean. I've always seen the way to determine strength being feats and/or statements. In the Cell Arc specifically, SSJ Vegeta was trashed by 18. Then post RoSaT Trunks is surprised Vegeta is using ASSJ against Cell so soon. Implying SSJ Vegeta had gotten significantly stronger, and is ergo stronger than his Namek Saga counterpart (who isn't even a Super Saiyajin.)

Could you enlighten me as to how you scale the series?

[ZombieVito]

My issue with the "two-base theory" is that it hinges on Goku using god ki in his base form.

Is a good thing this is not the case and never was.

[TAF108]

Did the episode mention Ultimate Gohan being stronger than he was before ​in the Buu saga?

It was mentioned in a preview that he was going to be but has that already happened or is it something that is going to happen following this episode? If it's the latter then Ultimate Gohan would just be as strong as he was in the Buu saga.

It was stated a few times in 88 that Ultimate Gohan was his "original power" and his "original strength". So that makes it seem like Ultimate Gohan (88) = Ultimate Gohan (Z).

But then Piccolo says that he doesn't believe this is Gohan's limit, and that he can get stronger than this. So I'd say Ultimate Gohan in episode 90 is that strength Piccolo was talking about.

[HeroR]

Y'know, that's the second time I've heard someone say that. I'm not particularly sure what "feels stronger" should mean. I've always seen the way to determine strength being feats and/or statements. In the Cell Arc specifically, SSJ Vegeta was trashed by 18. Then post RoSaT Trunks is surprised Vegeta is using ASSJ against Cell so soon. Implying SSJ Vegeta had gotten significantly stronger, and is ergo stronger than his Namek Saga counterpart (who isn't even a Super Saiyajin.)

Could you enlighten me as to how you scale the series?

Like on Namek, the planet shook, always in danger of blowing up, chucks of the planets were blown off, and was eventually destroyed. We then have flashback of Freeza in his weakest form nuking Vegeta. Cell Saga, the Earth got off really undamaged and there were no weather changes.

[TAF108]

My issue with the "two-base theory" is that it hinges on Goku using god ki in his base form.

Is a good thing this is not the case and never was.

Sorry, afraid I'm a bit confused on what you mean. Are you saying that the two base theory doesn't hinge on Divine ki in base, and ergo that's not a valid reason to dismiss it? Or are you saying that there is not Divine Ki in base, hence I would be right in my assessment. I'm sure what you meant is probably obvious, and I'm just stuck on the phrasing. Though I would appreciate clarification.

[TAF108]

Y'know, that's the second time I've heard someone say that. I'm not particularly sure what "feels stronger" should mean. I've always seen the way to determine strength being feats and/or statements. In the Cell Arc specifically, SSJ Vegeta was trashed by 18. Then post RoSaT Trunks is surprised Vegeta is using ASSJ against Cell so soon. Implying SSJ Vegeta had gotten significantly stronger, and is ergo stronger than his Namek Saga counterpart (who isn't even a Super Saiyajin.)

Could you enlighten me as to how you scale the series?

Like on Namek, the planet shook, always in danger of blowing up, chucks of the planets were blown off, and was eventually destroyed. We then have flashback of Freeza in his weakest form nuking Vegeta. Cell Saga, the Earth got off really undamaged and there were no weather changes.

Doesn't Cell shake the Earth while powering up? It's stated when Vegeta is doing his Final Flash that he's going to destroy the Earth, and he has to make his beam smaller to prevent that. Then MSSJ Goku has to fly upward so Cell's Kamehameha doesn't hit Earth. Cell thinks Goku is bluffing with a full power Kamehameha, because it would destroy Earth. And Goku has to tell Gohan to stop worrying about the damage he'd do to Earth during his clash with the Cell because the Dragon Balls could be used to repair Earth. And then Cell's self destruction was going to destroy Earth, and Freeza himself told Cold he'd rather fight and kill Goku, rather than easily destroy Earth. The only time I can think of Namek shaking was after Freeza struck the planet's core.

[BWri]

Like on Namek, the planet shook, always in danger of blowing up, chucks of the planets were blown off, and was eventually destroyed. We then have flashback of Freeza in his weakest form nuking Vegeta. Cell Saga, the Earth got off really undamaged and there were no weather changes.

Headcanon tells me that it's the characters controlling their powers better, which is somewhat backed up by the Goten vs Trunks fight (not sure if that was in the manga or not) where the boys are told not to use ki blasts, even low powered ones, because of how little control they had over them, Goten particularly. Otherwise, King Piccolo has destructive feats over most of the Super cast, Nappa too.

[ZombieVito]

My issue with the "two-base theory" is that it hinges on Goku using god ki in his base form.

Is a good thing this is not the case and never was.

Sorry, afraid I'm a bit confused on what you mean. Are you saying that the two base theory doesn't hinge on Divine ki in base, and ergo that's not a valid reason to dismiss it? Or are you saying that there is not Divine Ki in base, hence I would be right in my assessment. I'm sure what you meant is probably obvious, and I'm just stuck on the phrasing. Though I would appreciate clarification.

Saiyan beyond God doesn't have god ki. That was apparent at the end of Battle of Gods (both movie and arc) when everyone could feel Goku but he still had the power of Super Saiyan God in him.

[HeroR]

Doesn't Cell shake the Earth while powering up? It's stated when Vegeta is doing his Final Flash that he's going to destroy the Earth, and he has to make his beam smaller to prevent that. Then MSSJ Goku has to fly upward so Cell's Kamehameha doesn't hit Earth. Cell thinks Goku is bluffing with a full power Kamehameha, because it would destroy Earth. And Goku has to tell Gohan to stop worrying about the damage he'd do to Earth during his clash with the Cell because the Dragon Balls could be used to repair Earth. And then Cell's self destruction was going to destroy Earth, and Freeza himself told Cold he'd rather fight and kill Goku, rather than easily destroy Earth. The only time I can think of Namek shaking was after Freeza struck the planet's core.

Yeah, but these guys are hundreds if not thousands of times stronger than anyone from the Freeza Saga yet they're feats are the same. By this point they should be shaking the solar system.

[TAF108]

Doesn't Cell shake the Earth while powering up? It's stated when Vegeta is doing his Final Flash that he's going to destroy the Earth, and he has to make his beam smaller to prevent that. Then MSSJ Goku has to fly upward so Cell's Kamehameha doesn't hit Earth. Cell thinks Goku is bluffing with a full power Kamehameha, because it would destroy Earth. And Goku has to tell Gohan to stop worrying about the damage he'd do to Earth during his clash with the Cell because the Dragon Balls could be used to repair Earth. And then Cell's self destruction was going to destroy Earth, and Freeza himself told Cold he'd rather fight and kill Goku, rather than easily destroy Earth. The only time I can think of Namek shaking was after Freeza struck the planet's core.

Yeah, but these guys are hundreds if not thousands of times stronger than anyone from the Freeza Saga yet they're feats are the same. By this point they should be shaking the solar system.

I'd say that's more on the narrative. It's the problem with series like Dragon Ball, where the escalation is grand but the stage is not. Of course, that's an out of universe reason. I mean, Planet Busting's pretty consistent. Everyone in the Cell Saga could do it, Goku accidentally destroys one-tenth of Earth during his fight with Majin Boo, & Kid Boo easily busts the planet. This is why I don't like arguing Destructive Capacity in Dragon Ball.

[SaiyanGod117]

Like on Namek, the planet shook, always in danger of blowing up, chucks of the planets were blown off, and was eventually destroyed. We then have flashback of Freeza in his weakest form nuking Vegeta. Cell Saga, the Earth got off really undamaged and there were no weather changes.

Headcanon tells me that it's the characters controlling their powers better, which is somewhat backed up by the Goten vs Trunks fight (not sure if that was in the manga or not) where the boys are told not to use ki blasts, even low powered ones, because of how little control they had over them, Goten particularly. Otherwise, King Piccolo has destructive feats over most of the Super cast, Nappa too.

Nappa destroyed a country with two fingers, when did King Piccolo ever do that?

[HeroR]

Nappa destroyed a country with two fingers, when did King Piccolo ever do that?

He destroyed a part of a city just to show off when he took over the world. He did that with a wave of his hand. That and Roshi bursted the moon during the 21st World Martial Arts Tournament.

[SaiyanGod117]

Nappa destroyed a country with two fingers, when did King Piccolo ever do that?

He destroyed a part of a city just to show off when he took over the world. He did that with a wave of his hand. That and Roshi bursted the moon during the 21st World Martial Arts Tournament.

It took him some effort though and the Daizenshuu say his power is like a nuke which make sense. Since the most he's ever destroyed was a city and that Roshi moon feat is definitely a outlier.

[HeroR]

It took him some effort though and the Daizenshuu say his power is like a nuke which make sense. Since the most he's ever destroyed was a city and that Roshi moon feat is definitely a outlier.

Roshi isn't an outlier since it's a story point that he destroyed the moon. It took a lot of energy to do it, but he did. Piccolo destroying part of that city didn't take that much effort and the Daizenshuu's power levels for Dragon Ball is just them pulling numbers out of their butts since Dragon Ball has no official power levels. The most standout example is having kid Goku at the beginning of the series with a power level of ten. Kid Goku in the first story arc has better feats than Mr. Satan who is more than twice as powerful as a normal human.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

It took him some effort though and the Daizenshuu say his power is like a nuke which make sense. Since the most he's ever destroyed was a city and that Roshi moon feat is definitely a outlier.

Roshi isn't an outlier since it's a story point that he destroyed the moon. It took a lot of energy to do it, but he did. Piccolo destroying part of that city didn't take that much effort and the Daizenshuu's power levels for Dragon Ball is just them pulling numbers out of their butts since Dragon Ball has no official power levels. The most standout example is having kid Goku at the beginning of the series with a power level of ten. Kid Goku in the first story arc has better feats than Mr. Satan who is more than twice as powerful as a normal human.

Going by the anime's filler, Mr. Satan can pull apart two phone books that have had their pages intertwined.

That's stronger than TWO TANKS PULLING EACH PHONE-BOOK'S END AT FULL SPEED!

[HeroR]

Going by the anime's filler, Mr. Satan can pull apart two phone books that have had their pages intertwined.

That's stronger than TWO TANKS PULLING EACH PHONE-BOOK'S END AT FULL SPEED!

Kid Goku took an axe to the head and only got a bump and was bullet proof while Mr. Satan nearly died to a gun shot wound. Goku also broke three brinks with his finger and he just poked the bricks and he benched lifted a car and threw it. Also using filler, he kicked an airplane out of the air.

So while what Mr. Satan did is impressive, kid Goku still have better feats.

[SaiyanGod117]

Roshi isn't an outlier since it's a story point that he destroyed the moon. It took a lot of energy to do it, but he did.

It definitely was, none of Goku or Piccolo's full power attacks at the 23rd Bukdokai came anywhere close to that kind of destruction. Also, just because it was needed for the story doesn't negate it from being labeled an outlier.

Piccolo destroying part of that city didn't take that much effort and the Daizenshuu's power levels for Dragon Ball is just them pulling numbers out of their butts since Dragon Ball has no official power levels.

Your right it didn't take a lot of effort, but it wasn't as causal as Nappa's two fingers. Also this wasn't a power rating, but a statement which wouldn't really contradict anything. Because again, the most we've seen King Piccolo destroy is a city and that was at full power.

The most standout example is having kid Goku at the beginning of the series with a power level of ten. Kid Goku in the first story arc has better feats than Mr. Satan who is more than twice as powerful as a normal human.

Than that would mean he's almost as strong as Roshi, at the beginning of Z, who had a power level of 139. Power levels weren't made during Dragon Ball, so trying to compare characters who had no powerlevels in the first place seems out of place.

[HeroR]

Roshi isn't an outlier since it's a story point that he destroyed the moon. It took a lot of energy to do it, but he did.

It definitely was, none of Goku or Piccolo's full power attacks at the 23rd Bukdokai came anywhere close to that kind of destruction. Also, just because it was needed for the story doesn't negate it from being labeled an outlier.

Piccolo destroying part of that city didn't take that much effort and the Daizenshuu's power levels for Dragon Ball is just them pulling numbers out of their butts since Dragon Ball has no official power levels.

Your right it didn't take a lot of effort, but it wasn't as causal as Nappa's two fingers. Also this wasn't a power rating, but a statement which wouldn't really contradict anything. Because again, the most we've seen King Piccolo destroy is a city and that was at full power.

The most standout example is having kid Goku at the beginning of the series with a power level of ten. Kid Goku in the first story arc has better feats than Mr. Satan who is more than twice as powerful as a normal human.

Than that would mean he's almost as strong as Roshi, at the beginning of Z, who had a power level of 139. Power levels weren't made during Dragon Ball, so trying to compare characters who had no powerlevels in the first place seems out of place.

Nope, not an outlier. Roshi bursted the moon using his full power Kamehameha. And just because Goku and Piccolo didn't burst the moon doesn't mean they couldn't do it. They had no reason to. That is like saying Goku isn't a planet burster since he has never destroyed a planet.

Piccolo didn't want to destroy the city like Nappa. It was a warning to the King, while Nappa really did want to nuke the entire city. And people used their full power all the time in Dragon Ball, yet the planet is still intact. Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku and Golden Freeza's battle didn't even make the Earth shake and the planet didn't go up in smoke until Frieza willed it.

Power levels do not scale to Dragon Ball, it is as simple as that because Toriyama made those numbers up.

[Helios518]

It definitely was, none of Goku or Piccolo's full power attacks at the 23rd Bukdokai came anywhere close to that kind of destruction. Also, just because it was needed for the story doesn't negate it from being labeled an outlier.

Attack potency is a thing. If you want to ignore the existence of attack potency then no character (besides Zeno, Beerus, and Champa) is anything above mountain busting because for every instance a character has of destroying a moon/planet/etc they have hundreds of other instances not blowing it up at full power therefore making the planet or whatever feat an outlier.

[SaiyanGod117]

Nope, not an outlier. Roshi bursted the moon using his full power Kamehameha. And just because Goku and Piccolo didn't burst the moon doesn't mean they couldn't do it. They had no reason to. That is like saying Goku isn't a planet burster since he has never destroyed a planet.

It doesn't matter if Roshi was at full power, if Vegeta in the Saiyan Saga blows up a star with a Galick Gun at full power, but later in the story much stronger characters fail to do much less. There's no other way, but to label it an outlier, this is not even the least bit similar to into to the Goku situation. Goku has benefit of having on-panel proof of characters he's stronger than destroying planets.

Piccolo didn't want to destroy the city like Nappa. It was a warning to the King, while Nappa really did want to nuke the entire city. And people used their full power all the time in Dragon Ball, yet the planet is still intact. Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku and Golden Freeza's battle didn't even make the Earth shake and the planet didn't go up in smoke until Frieza willed it.

I'm taking about when he was fighting Kid Goku, he was definitely firing a blast at full power. All we see is the destruction of city nothing else, which follows a flow of consistency, since a full power blast from Piccolo Jr. destroyed a large island. We have Piccolo destroying a city with a wave of his hand(albeit with some effort) than we have Nappa casually destroying a region with two fingers.

Power levels do not scale to Dragon Ball, it is as simple as that because Toriyama made those numbers up.

That's what I basically just said, there out of place.