Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[SaiyanGod117]

It definitely was, none of Goku or Piccolo's full power attacks at the 23rd Bukdokai came anywhere close to that kind of destruction. Also, just because it was needed for the story doesn't negate it from being labeled an outlier.

Attack potency is a thing. If you want to ignore the existence of attack potency then no character (besides Zeno, Beerus, and Champa) is anything above mountain busting because for every instance a character has of destroying a moon/planet/etc they have hundreds of other instances not blowing it up at full power therefore making the planet or whatever feat an outlier.

I know all about Attack potentcy, but Roshi's Moon feat is definitely an inconsistency we have people who are superior to him in power fail to do much less, time and time again. If it wasn't an outlier, than there should have been no reason he was scared to take on the Red Ribbion Army. Plus we have a statement in the Daizenshuu, saying King Piccolo's power is like a nuke and he was superior to Roshi.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Answer me one thing.

Gohan tells Goku to fight with all his power.
But all his power is the Kaioken,right? Gohan's request was even the reason for that use.

So, just in the form of SSB, did not that mean that Goku was getting on with everything yet? I mean, we can not know that, just that he went all out using the Kaioken.

[BWri]

Like on Namek, the planet shook, always in danger of blowing up, chucks of the planets were blown off, and was eventually destroyed. We then have flashback of Freeza in his weakest form nuking Vegeta. Cell Saga, the Earth got off really undamaged and there were no weather changes.

Headcanon tells me that it's the characters controlling their powers better, which is somewhat backed up by the Goten vs Trunks fight (not sure if that was in the manga or not) where the boys are told not to use ki blasts, even low powered ones, because of how little control they had over them, Goten particularly. Otherwise, King Piccolo has destructive feats over most of the Super cast, Nappa too.

Nappa destroyed a country with two fingers, when did King Piccolo ever do that?

Looks like HeroR already answered that one. But my original meaning to my awkwardly worded point was that both Piccolo and Nappa have shown better destructive feats than most Super characters. I stopped paying attention to destruction feats when Piccolo was going on about that crater Vegeta made when he self-destructed in the Buu saga. From that moment it was clear that there'd be no more ramping up of the destruction just because the power levels were exponentially higher.

[BWri]

I have to agree with you on that point. Most of the transformations seem almost useless given the power the characters posses in their base forms. They almost pick and choose at random simply to gauge the other opponent before going with their final transformation, or in the case of someone like Piccolo, power up with enough ki to challenge the opponent. I was half joking about the old power ups but you would see a markedly different fighter once he finished raising his power. He would often go from hardly keeping up or staying evenly matched, to suddenly stomping the opponent until they decided to raise their level. I really think the characters are incredibly strong in their base form, and transformations for most fighters are simply useless (already stronger than the opponent without a multiplier) or useless (far too weak to challenge the opponent).

Okay, so I agree with everyone that says transformations have much less gravitas than they used to have, due to how interchangeable they seem to be (for Goku anyway) and how characters keep having these crazy strength feats in base alone. I do miss that feeling of a transformation being the difference between getting stomped and stomping. It's still there to a degree, but not like it used to be. That's why Goku can just pick out of a hat which form he wants to use.

Hopefully we will see some new transformations in the next few arcs following different paths, in the case of the Sayians. Possibly introduce something for other characters like Piccolo accessing God Ki, or Tien tapping into his ancestry by accessing hidden power from his third eye. They could offer Buu fans a refund in the form of a transition to a leaner, smarter, more powerful character after his sleep. Frieza may stick around giving us access to all types of possible new forms. Plus I think they'll keep some focus on the other universes, giving us a larger cast of characters to pick from in future arcs.

I actually had some good powerup/transformation scenarios on my blog last year including one where Tien accesses his ancestors' "war god" blood through near death training. Not sure if I can link to that or not. But the way I see the show going, that's been hinted at since BoG and RoF is the way of the "enhanced base". You see all the theories about "Mystic Goku" all over the net. I think there's some validity to that. They're pushing it strong with Gohan, which is actually my favorite of the scenarios that I had created myself. It's him gaining god levels from his training with a creator god, rather than a destroyer god like Beerus. It perfectly represents Gohan's character vs. Goku and Vegeta's and I'm glad they're going in this direction. I don't think it'll be a transformation for him, but rather a new facet of his ultimate power.

As for Goku, I think he'll be rocking the "enhanced base" too. They've been hinting at it for a while. What if all this two-base inconsistency nonsense was a long play by them as a set-up to Goku trying to perfect infusing his base with god ki control? I doubt it, but that would be nice. Anyways, in BoG Goku absorbed the SSG power into himself and the only time that's featured any relevance is in RoF. In RoF I believe we see Toriyama's true plan for the show in action, which is complete speculation on my part, but it just feels like the natural progression of the ideas presented in BoG. It just seems like he wanted to streamline the whole thing and so he sort of wiped the slate clean, with SbG going straight into SSB because the other forms were totally obsolete compared to SSB. I think Toriyama just wants to clean all this up and simplify it. I'm probably just reading too much into all that, but I don't think there'll be too many more transformations (if any) for the remainder of the show unless Toei pushes hard for it. I think some of the other universe characters might get some like Frost, Kale, Caulifla, etc, but U7 is gonna focus distinct powerups in my opinion.

If there are new transformations I really want them to be more than a routine powerup. If it's that then we're just on another countdown until it has no point in the face of a another new transformation. Only thing I like about Blue is the perfect ki control cuz at least that's a cool ability.

[Zagacious]

I can't believe how many people are convinced Gohan is on SSB level now. He only lasted about 20 seconds after Goku had gone SSB, and was knocked out in one shot at the end. It makes sense that he's not that strong yet anyways because he hasn't been training much. He is probably beyond SS3, but not by much. I have a feeling his Mystic form will evolve into more of a god form soon and put him closer to Goku SSB/KK level or maybe slightly beyond it.

Was it 20 seconds? It didn't feel that long. There were only like three blows in total before Goku used Kaioken.

The point was that he didn't last a significant amount of time after Goku turned SSB before being completely knocked out, so I don't understand how anyone would think this puts him anywhere near SSB level.

[Bullza]

The thing is though and what people seem to often forget it seems is that Super Saiyan Blue Goku by all accounts now should be vastly stronger than he was upon first appearance.

Resurrection F Super Saiyan Blue Goku isn't even in the same Tier as the current Super Saiyan Blue Goku to be honest. Vegeta put a stomping on Black who previously put a stomping on a Vegeta who'd grown notably stronger since Resurrection F.

So even if Ultimate Gohan wasn't as strong as the current Super Saiyan Blue Goku, there's no reason why he can't be stronger than the Resurrection F Super Saiyan Blue Goku or Golden Frieza.

[DBZ Macky]

As I see it now:
SSB Goku >= SSB Vegeta >= Ultimate Gohan > Android 17 > Golden Freeza >>> Fat Buu > Piccolo >> Android 18 >> Krillin > Roshi >> Tenshithands

[ZombieVito]

The thing is though and what people seem to often forget it seems is that Super Saiyan Blue Goku by all accounts now should be vastly stronger than he was upon first appearance.

Resurrection F Super Saiyan Blue Goku isn't even in the same Tier as the current Super Saiyan Blue Goku to be honest. Vegeta put a stomping on Black who previously put a stomping on a Vegeta who'd grown notably stronger since Resurrection F.

So even if Ultimate Gohan wasn't as strong as the current Super Saiyan Blue Goku, there's no reason why he can't be stronger than the Resurrection F Super Saiyan Blue Goku or Golden Frieza.

You are indeed correct. Current SSB Goku and Vegeta should be at least twice as strong as their first appearance.

Something like this:

SSG Goku: 10
SbG Goku: 12
SSB Goku: 24
-- U6 arc: 32
-- FT arc: 35
-- US arc: 50

SbG Vegeta: 12
SSB Vegeta: 24
-- U6 arc: 32
-- FT arc: 35
-- RoSaT: 55
-- US arc: 58

Freeza: 12
-- Golden: 30

Hit: 29
-- FT arc: 45

Black: 20
-- SR: 40
-- Scimitar: 48
-- Scythe: 60

[BWri]

You are indeed correct. Current SSB Goku and Vegeta should be at least twice as strong as their first appearance.

Something like this:

SSG Goku: 10
SbG Goku: 12
SSB Goku: 24
-- U6 arc: 32
-- FT arc: 35
-- US arc: 50

SbG Vegeta: 12
SSB Vegeta: 24
-- U6 arc: 32
-- FT arc: 35
-- RoSaT: 55
-- US arc: 58

Freeza: 12
-- Golden: 30

Hit: 29
-- FT arc: 45

Black: 20
-- SR: 40
-- Scimitar: 48
-- Scythe: 60

That's interesting. Does anyone here else believe that Vegeta is stronger than Goku? I've heard quite a few people say it, but I don't exactly see it. I see the case being made during the end of the FT arc, but IMO there's not a ton of evidence, and Veggie always seems to be playing catchup to Goku anyhow. The numbers you have do add up, I have to admit. A SSB KK(x2) with your numbers would still put Goku at a 70, which is what he needs to outclass Trunks+Vegeta. I guess I can buy it.

SSB Goku:
-- FT arc: 35

SSB Vegeta:
-- FT arc: 35
-- RoSaT: 55

I just can't see RoSaT doing that much for Vegeta. He definitely got stronger, but a 60% increase seems insane for a solo training session, especially when he doesn't think three years of training with Goku will result in much difference.

[Helios518]

1) I know all about Attack potentcy, but Roshi's Moon feat is definitely an inconsistency we have people who are superior to him in power fail to do much less, time and time again. 2) If it wasn't an outlier, than there should have been no reason he was scared to take on the Red Ribbion Army. 3) Plus we have a statement in the Daizenshuu, saying King Piccolo's power is like a nuke and he was superior to Roshi.

1) It's not those people failed to do so, but they have not reason to do so. Otherwise, most of DB are just small crater level to mountain busting at best because we've them do 100 of those feats for every once they planet busted.

2) Moon busting or not, Roshi being scared of the RRA is an argument that some guys in the RRArmy are just that strong.

3) Feats > Contradicted statements

[AvatarReiko]

The assumed dichotomy of one base and Super Saiyan forms <---------- over here and one base and Super Saiyan Blue ----------> over there now definitely makes no sense. There's a far more gradual progression up the Super Saiyan chain than that.

I'm starting to think that Saiyan Beyond God exists/existed, but that it quit being used because Goku's base and regular SSJ forms completely caught up with it. (As did every other character apparently!) This would explain the retcon.

I've always said that SJBG only existed in RoF, and the RoF Promotional Manga.

The DBS anime did it halfway, by having Goku (and as a result Vegeta & everyone stronger than base Goku) get a massive buff from SSJG, and has been retconning it ever since. The manga just did away with it entirely from the get go.



So I'll say this. I believe that Saiyajin Beyond God was a form that existed in the RoF film (and aforementioned manga). I believe there was divine ki in that base form. The DBS anime did it half way, by powering up Goku's base with no god ki, and then adding the old SSJ forms, creating the jumbled mess that they're trying to fix now. Toyotaro, presumably thought ahead and planned for this. Hence why Goku doesn't absorb the power of SSJG into his being in the manga, and instead gains it as a form.

Basically SJBG = Only in RoF movie era stuff. Super powered-up base that may have been retconned to be weaker = DBS anime. Base not much stronger than the Boo Saga (at least at first) that uses SSJG as a form = DBS manga.

Okay. This makes sense. So is Goku's base form(currently) still weaker than Final Form Frieza on namek?

[dragonball0900]

Okay. This makes sense. So is Goku's base form(currently) still weaker than Final Form Frieza on namek?

I have him surpassing Frieza by this point since the training with Whis should have to give him a better boost than his normal training. Here are my levels, beggining from the Cell arc:

Cell Arc Goku - 60,000,000

Buu Arc Goku - 90,000,000

BOG Arc Goku - 100,000,000

ROF Arc Goku - 120,000,000 (Yeah, by the time of Frieza's own arc, I have Goku equal to Frieza's Namek self, it might be or might not be a coincidence)

U6 Arc Goku - 200,000,000 (Goku should be much stronger since he trained 3 years in the ROSAT)

Trunks Arc Goku - 240,000,000

Trunks Arc (last part) Goku - 300,000,000

Just want to ask, about my "Trunks Arc (last part) Goku" level, did Goku received a power up during the Trunks arc like Vegeta's ROSAT training to make him stronger? I have Vegeta after the ROSAT training at 500,000,000, but did Goku recieved a power up too so I can make his level for the Universal Survival Arc?

[Lord Beerus]

As I see it now:
SSB Goku >= SSB Vegeta >= Ultimate Gohan > Android 17 > Golden Freeza >>> Fat Buu > Piccolo >> Android 18 >> Krillin > Roshi >> Tenshithands

First off, "Tenshithands"? Bruh, you have no chill.

Second, I think you're giving Android 17 a bit too much credit. Yes, he clash fists with SSJB Goku, but Golden Freeza was comfortably stronger than SSJB Goku during the events of ROF, and Goku wasn't fighting seriously as a SSJB and was trying to make sure he didn't kill Android 17 when they were sparring. I'd place him below Golden Freeza for now.

[Marlowe89]

I just can't see RoSaT doing that much for Vegeta. He definitely got stronger, but a 60% increase seems insane for a solo training session, especially when he doesn't think three years of training with Goku will result in much difference.

We don't actually need to assume that Vegeta and Goku became that much stronger. People forget that Super Saiyan Blue and God level are already supposed to be absurdly high in strength, so much so that even something like a 5-10% increase would already be considered a vast improvement. The RoF film sort of backs this up as well.

[TheSaiyanGod]

The thing is though and what people seem to often forget it seems is that Super Saiyan Blue Goku by all accounts now should be vastly stronger than he was upon first appearance.

Resurrection F Super Saiyan Blue Goku isn't even in the same Tier as the current Super Saiyan Blue Goku to be honest. Vegeta put a stomping on Black who previously put a stomping on a Vegeta who'd grown notably stronger since Resurrection F.

So even if Ultimate Gohan wasn't as strong as the current Super Saiyan Blue Goku, there's no reason why he can't be stronger than the Resurrection F Super Saiyan Blue Goku or Golden Frieza.

There is no reason why Gohan was even close to Goku SSG since he was pressured by Goku SSJ2, even using all his power. He hit punches that were irrelevant in Goku SSB, we do not even know how much force he was using (if he defeated Gohan there , He would not have actually used up all his power).
As I had already said, even Trunks lasted a few seconds against Black SSJ Rosé, and yet he was not stronger than Goku or Vegeta. There is absolutely nothing to prove that Gohan is In this level.

Also there is no way to set the level of Android 17.Goku was held in the fight even though I know SSB was much stronger, we do not know how much power he used, since he could already fight to be in SSJ. It would be quite exaggerated to say that he is Golden Freeza level

[TBMx]

Seriously you will tell how much punches in a fight that lasted 5 seconds? If so, Trunks SSJ2 = Vegeta SSB, after all he withstood several blows from Vegeta. And yet, Gohan did not scratch anything against Goku SSB, his punches were gone Totally irrelevant. There is nothing in the anime that indicates this level of gohan

No, I tell by how many punches one sucessfully lands in a fight when both parties are trying. Trunks SS2 didn't land anything on Vegeta SSB, Vegeta landed with impunity on Trunks SS2. Goku didn't hurt Gohan either, who still had the energy to clash with SSB kaioken Goku.

Arguing Goku Blue is stronger despite Gohan landing more on him than he did on Gohan, doesn't make any sense. The writers purposely chose to have Gohan get more unblocked shots in despite the fight being short. How is that insignificant? It wasn't accidental.

Even Trunks hit a hit on BLACK SSJ Rosé, and he was swapping punches with him, does not mean anything.

Gohan asked Goku to use all his power. That he would not use and it was clear, as Goku SSJ2 was taking care of Gohan Ultimate without any problems. These punches in Goku made as much effect as Kuririn's blows in Nappa0. It is clear that Gohan is not SSB level, since he was extremely pressured Endo by Goku SSJ2. He clearly said at the beginning of the Fight that was with all its power, has nothing to discuss about it.

SSJ2 Trunks got a few hits in when Black was caught by off guard. Trunks has his Saiyan Rage mode which is SSJB level as well. SSJB is a jobber transformation now. Trunks has never out landed blows on Black straight up. In Dragonball, the stronger character is faster and has better senses. Goku is also a far superior martial artist to Gohan so it's not like we can count technique as the reason. The writers purposely wrote SSB jobbing to Mystic Gohan.

Your explanation is that Full Power mystic Gohan can't be SSB level because he appears to be around even with Goku SS2. My point is that SSB did no better than SS2 once again and that transformations in Super, due to the fucked up scaling, don't mean squat beyond shifting merch. Selling toys. Blue doesn't mean anything anymore on it's own. Minor characters like 17 can match it by training in an animal park. All we know is that When Goku goes SSB Kaioken, he's vaguely OP and it's a sign the other guy will lose. That's all it is. Prior transformations are all the same in terms of results but when Goku channels that red aura, don't fuck with him.

[julianix]

As I see it now:
SSB Goku >= SSB Vegeta >= Ultimate Gohan > Android 17 > Golden Freeza >>> Fat Buu > Piccolo >> Android 18 >> Krillin > Roshi >> Tenshithands

This is pretty much as accurate as it's gonna get besides tien > Roshi.

I thought it was clear ultimate Gohan was on par or maybe slightly weaker than ssb Goku.

[TheSaiyanGod]

No, I tell by how many punches one sucessfully lands in a fight when both parties are trying. Trunks SS2 didn't land anything on Vegeta SSB, Vegeta landed with impunity on Trunks SS2. Goku didn't hurt Gohan either, who still had the energy to clash with SSB kaioken Goku.

Arguing Goku Blue is stronger despite Gohan landing more on him than he did on Gohan, doesn't make any sense. The writers purposely chose to have Gohan get more unblocked shots in despite the fight being short. How is that insignificant? It wasn't accidental.

Even Trunks hit a hit on BLACK SSJ Rosé, and he was swapping punches with him, does not mean anything.

Gohan asked Goku to use all his power. That he would not use and it was clear, as Goku SSJ2 was taking care of Gohan Ultimate without any problems. These punches in Goku made as much effect as Kuririn's blows in Nappa0. It is clear that Gohan is not SSB level, since he was extremely pressured Endo by Goku SSJ2. He clearly said at the beginning of the Fight that was with all its power, has nothing to discuss about it.

SSJ2 Trunks got a few hits in when Black was caught by off guard. Trunks has his Saiyan Rage mode which is SSJB level as well. SSJB is a jobber transformation now. Trunks has never out landed blows on Black straight up. In Dragonball, the stronger character is faster and has better senses. Goku is also a far superior martial artist to Gohan so it's not like we can count technique as the reason. The writers purposely wrote SSB jobbing to Mystic Gohan.

Your explanation is that Full Power mystic Gohan can't be SSB level because he appears to be around even with Goku SS2. My point is that SSB did no better than SS2 once again and that transformations in Super, due to the fucked up scaling, don't mean squat beyond shifting merch. Selling toys. Blue doesn't mean anything anymore on it's own. Minor characters like 17 can match it by training in an animal park. All we know is that When Goku goes SSB Kaioken, he's vaguely OP and it's a sign the other guy will lose. That's all it is. Prior transformations are all the same in terms of results but when Goku channels that red aura, don't fuck with him.

No, Black was not on low guard. He and Trunks still traded sword blows, and only then was he thrown away. In my mind, Gohan just got hit in Goku because of the episode's title that involves "breaking Limits. " We know that despite this, Goku SSB is much stronger since Gohan was rivaling Goku SSJ2.As we know Black was much stronger than SSJ2 Trunks.

I think SSB is being "nerfed" especially in recruiting episodes. Fight against Toppo, Goku in SSJ could not quite face him, but in SSB managed to not only rival, but also take a small advantage.That is why I do not see Gohan Goku SSB level, hit two strokes does not mean anything since Trunks already did the Even and they did not work and Gohan wanted to test their limits.

As I see it now:
SSB Goku >= SSB Vegeta >= Ultimate Gohan > Android 17 > Golden Freeza >>> Fat Buu > Piccolo >> Android 18 >> Krillin > Roshi >> Tenshithands

This is pretty much as accurate as it's gonna get besides tien > Roshi.

I thought it was clear ultimate Gohan was on par or maybe slightly weaker than ssb Goku.

Do you claim this based on a few seconds' fight?that before that Gohan barely rivaled Goku SSJ2, being pressed at various times?

[SaiyanGod117]

1) I know all about Attack potentcy, but Roshi's Moon feat is definitely an inconsistency we have people who are superior to him in power fail to do much less, time and time again. 2) If it wasn't an outlier, than there should have been no reason he was scared to take on the Red Ribbion Army. 3) Plus we have a statement in the Daizenshuu, saying King Piccolo's power is like a nuke and he was superior to Roshi.

1) It's not those people failed to do so, but they have not reason to do so. Otherwise, most of DB are just small crater level to mountain busting at best because we've them do 100 of those feats for every once they planet busted.

2) Moon busting or not, Roshi being scared of the RRA is an argument that some guys in the RRArmy are just that strong.

3) Feats > Contradicted statements

No one in the first portion of the manga had the capability of blowing up a planet, your point is moot. Also, no one in the Red Ribbion even had the power to blow up a island, their most powerful weapon destroyed a mountain. The power to destroy the moon dwarfs that completely, additionally, mostly all attacks after follow the same level of destruction. So in-reality Consistency of Power Progession>Outliers.

[Helios518]

1) I know all about Attack potentcy, but Roshi's Moon feat is definitely an inconsistency we have people who are superior to him in power fail to do much less, time and time again. 2) If it wasn't an outlier, than there should have been no reason he was scared to take on the Red Ribbion Army. 3) Plus we have a statement in the Daizenshuu, saying King Piccolo's power is like a nuke and he was superior to Roshi.

1) It's not those people failed to do so, but they have not reason to do so. Otherwise, most of DB are just small crater level to mountain busting at best because we've them do 100 of those feats for every once they planet busted.

2) Moon busting or not, Roshi being scared of the RRA is an argument that some guys in the RRArmy are just that strong.

3) Feats > Contradicted statements

1) No one in the first portion of the manga had the capability of blowing up a planet, your point is moot. 2) Also, no one in the Red Ribbion even had the power to blow up a island, their most powerful weapon destroyed a mountain. The power to destroy the moon dwarfs that completely, additionally, mostly all attacks after follow the same level of destruction. 3) So in-reality Consistency of Power Progession>Outliers.

1) That's quite pedantic. I was using the planet busting as an example. Same thing could be applied for anything city busting or higher.

2) Roshi when he fought the RRA struggled very little. It's likely that Roshi was either expressing how much influence they have over the world, it was just a throw away line to make them seem big, or he knew they can hire Tao Pai Pai.

3) You're right. The progression of powers shows that it goes from Moon buster (Roshi) -> Casual Moon buster (BoZ Piccolo) -> Planet buster (Saiyan Saga Vegeta) -> Casual Planet buster (1st form Freeza) -> Solar System buster (Super Perfect Cell)

Seems perfectly consistent to me.