Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[SaiyanGod117]

1) Tao Pai Pai is either stronger than Roshi, making Roshi's word hold weight. Or Tao Pai is weaker than Roshi, making Roshi's word nothing. Either option doesn't disprove Roshi's moon busting actually if it's the former then that just makes Tao Pai Pai moon busting level.

Tao Pai Pai almost got killed by a grenade, he's not even in the realm of that type of power. Nor has he exhibited that type of power in DC either. You keep switching up your arguments, to fit your nonexistent narratives. I already said him knowing Tao Pai Pai makes little difference Though first, I need proof of him knowing who Tao Pai Pai is, which I doubt you have. Please don't say, since he's a world famous assassin Roshi would know who he is. Roshi's a hermit anyway- meaning he's mostly cutoff from the outside world and I need explicit proof of Roshi knowing who Tao Pai Pai is.

2) Scans for Old Daimao being winded by destroying a city

The Old King Piccolo being winded after destroying a city is filler, that's a mistake on my part.

3) So it goes from Moon busting to City busting to Island busting back to Casual Moon busting? That's not consistent at all. Just because the Piccolos never destroyed the Moon or its equivalent doesn't mean they are aren't Moon level. If you actually believe that then most characters aren't even moon level.

It's consistient if you take Roshi's moon feat out, which is obviously a inconsistency. Now I never said, that just because a character didn't perform a feat, means they can't do it, but they have to meet certain criteria's first.

[ZombieVito]

I just can't see RoSaT doing that much for Vegeta. He definitely got stronger, but a 60% increase seems insane for a solo training session, especially when he doesn't think three years of training with Goku will result in much difference.

Vegeta got that strong because of anger, Black said it.

Besides Vegeta needs to be stronger than a powered up version of SSR Black that was stronger than angered Goku that was stronger than SSR Black that kicked their ass.

[dragonball0900]

I think a way to interpret Gohan's current strenght is going by how big of a boost his Ultimate form is. We know from the Buu saga that the Ultimate form was a big increase, even bigger than the SSJ3. Going by their match in base forms, both Goku and Gohan seemed pretty equal. If they were equal in base forms, then in SSJ and SSJ2 they would be equal. However, since Ultimate form is < SSJ3, then Ultimate Gohan is obviously far stronger than SSJ2 Goku.

How can we compare Ultimate Gohan with SSJB Goku? Well, the boost of SSJB we know is far stronger than the Ultimate form, therefore Goku in SSJB was far stronger than Ultimate Gohan, but far weaker than Ultimate Gohan in both his SSJ2 and SSJ3 forms.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I think a way to interpret Gohan's current strenght is going by how big of a boost his Ultimate form is. We know from the Buu saga that the Ultimate form was a big increase, even bigger than the SSJ3. Going by their match in base forms, both Goku and Gohan seemed pretty equal. If they were equal in base forms, then in SSJ and SSJ2 they would be equal. However, since Ultimate form is < SSJ3, then Ultimate Gohan is obviously far stronger than SSJ2 Goku.

How can we compare Ultimate Gohan with SSJB Goku? Well, the boost of SSJB we know is far stronger than the Ultimate form, therefore Goku in SSJB was far stronger than Ultimate Gohan, but far weaker than Ultimate Gohan in both his SSJ2 and SSJ3 forms.

I go with this kind of interpretation.

As I've said before, I believe that, if Gohan's current Ultimate multiplier were identical to the original one when his base form was only equal with Goku, below 100% Final Form Freeza, and if his base form managed to equal that of a much stronger Goku, a base power at the level of some form of Majin Buu, then such an Ultimate Gohan could potentially be equal to a god form, SSG or possibly even SSB.

[dragon boss z]

1) Tao Pai Pai is either stronger than Roshi, making Roshi's word hold weight. Or Tao Pai is weaker than Roshi, making Roshi's word nothing. Either option doesn't disprove Roshi's moon busting actually if it's the former then that just makes Tao Pai Pai moon busting level.

Tao Pai Pai almost got killed by a grenade, he's not even in the realm of that type of power. Nor has he exhibited that type of power in DC either. You keep switching up your arguments, to fit your nonexistent narratives. I already said him knowing Tao Pai Pai makes little difference Though first, I need proof of him knowing who Tao Pai Pai is, which I doubt you have. Please don't say, since he's a world famous assassin Roshi would know who he is. Roshi's a hermit anyway- meaning he's mostly cutoff from the outside world and I need explicit proof of Roshi knowing who Tao Pai Pai is.

2) Scans for Old Daimao being winded by destroying a city

The Old King Piccolo being winded after destroying a city is filler, that's a mistake on my part.

3) So it goes from Moon busting to City busting to Island busting back to Casual Moon busting? That's not consistent at all. Just because the Piccolos never destroyed the Moon or its equivalent doesn't mean they are aren't Moon level. If you actually believe that then most characters aren't even moon level.

It's consistient if you take Roshi's moon feat out, which is obviously a inconsistency. Now I never said, that just because a character didn't perform a feat, means they can't do it, but they have to meet certain criteria's first.

I agree. Roshi's moon feat is an outlier. Imo Piccolo's was too. If you ignore those, the feats have a very clear progression.

Tien: destroyed the tournament ring
Buff Roshi: destroyed a small mountain
King Piccolo: destroyed a city (said to be small nuke level in the daizenshuu)
23rd Piccolo: wiped the surface of paya island
Raditz: casually multi mountain busted
Nappa: casually wiped multiple cities off the planet.
Zarbon: large explosion that seemed to be multi island level
Recoome: made a giant crater that was multi island level and krillin stated it warped the planet
Frieza: sliced the planet, and caused other planetary devastation, finally destroying the core

[dragonball0900]

I didn't watch Dragon Ball Super that much, and I wanted to know weather Gohan trained during the Trunks arc. I know he didn't train before the ROF arc, and he trained with Piccolo prior to the U6 arc. But did he train after the U6 arc? During and after the Trunks arc?

[Lord Beerus]

I didn't watch Dragon Ball Super that much, and I wanted to know weather Gohan trained during the Trunks arc. I know he didn't train before the ROF arc, and he trained with Piccolo prior to the U6 arc. But did he train after the U6 arc? During and after the Trunks arc?

Considering that Gohan was still training with Piccolo prior to the U6/U7 tournament, following up on Gohan asking Piccolo to train him to become stronger after the events of Resurrection F, there's nothing really against the notion that Gohan kept on training while the Future Trunks arc was still going on.

[Ki Breaker]

I didn't watch Dragon Ball Super that much, and I wanted to know weather Gohan trained during the Trunks arc. I know he didn't train before the ROF arc, and he trained with Piccolo prior to the U6 arc. But did he train after the U6 arc? During and after the Trunks arc?

He probably stopped somewhere after rof..
He wasn't supposed to be able to go any more than SS in the exhibition match as well so it's not like his training bore any fruits, the manga not having it also makes it all the more likely it was a toie addition.

It's safe to say he didn't train a day till episode 88 since majin buu, if you must, he did train but it was way too light, enough to not make a difference in power

[dragonball0900]

I didn't watch Dragon Ball Super that much, and I wanted to know weather Gohan trained during the Trunks arc. I know he didn't train before the ROF arc, and he trained with Piccolo prior to the U6 arc. But did he train after the U6 arc? During and after the Trunks arc?

He probably stopped somewhere after rof..
He wasn't supposed to be able to go any more than SS in the exhibition match as well so it's not like his training bore any fruits, the manga not having it also makes it all the more likely it was a toie addition.

It's safe to say he didn't train a day till episode 88 since majin buu, if you must, he did train but it was way too light, enough to not make a difference in power

But that doesn't explain how Gohan was able to be equal to Goku at all of their matches, in the episode that Gohan was with his Great Saiyaman clothes, as well as this recent episode. Maybe it just took so long for Gohan to become a SSJ2 again in the more recent training with Piccolo. Surely Gohan could've been training through this time, specially since he did say he wanted to train again during the Universe 6 arc. Remember that both the anime and manga are different takes on the story so maybe the manga not making Gohan training was probably an addition too, who knows.

[LowRyder2005]

I didn't watch Dragon Ball Super that much, and I wanted to know weather Gohan trained during the Trunks arc. I know he didn't train before the ROF arc, and he trained with Piccolo prior to the U6 arc. But did he train after the U6 arc? During and after the Trunks arc?

It's not really that clear. Gohan made it look like it was eager to regain his old power ever since the whole ROF fiasco, but every time we see him after the U6 tournament ended he's doing something other than traning.

I personally took the whole "did you think I was doing nothing while you were busy with your scholarly life" remark as an indication that Gohan stopped training after re-taking the "fighting 101" sessions with Piccolo - who reportedly was still in the process of "re-training Gohan from scratch".
Now, if you believe that Piccolo was more or less the same power-wise in-between the U6 and the current arc then you may reconcile it with Gohan had simply never witnessed Piccolo fighting seriously even when they were training together post-ROF. Or, well, you might have to add the condition that Piccolo became substantially unrecognizable to Gohan in a few solo sessions. So, yeah, in short it's not really determined (like basically 90% of Super's infos about the power scaling).

[BWri]

I didn't watch Dragon Ball Super that much, and I wanted to know weather Gohan trained during the Trunks arc. I know he didn't train before the ROF arc, and he trained with Piccolo prior to the U6 arc. But did he train after the U6 arc? During and after the Trunks arc?

He probably stopped somewhere after rof..
He wasn't supposed to be able to go any more than SS in the exhibition match as well so it's not like his training bore any fruits, the manga not having it also makes it all the more likely it was a toie addition.

It's safe to say he didn't train a day till episode 88 since majin buu, if you must, he did train but it was way too light, enough to not make a difference in power

But that doesn't explain how Gohan was able to be equal to Goku at all of their matches, in the episode that Gohan was with his Great Saiyaman clothes, as well as this recent episode. Maybe it just took so long for Gohan to become a SSJ2 again in the more recent training with Piccolo. Surely Gohan could've been training through this time, specially since he did say he wanted to train again during the Universe 6 arc. Remember that both the anime and manga are different takes on the story so maybe the manga not making Gohan training was probably an addition too, who knows.

For Goku vs Great Saiyaman, that was just Goku dicking around, which is what he does a lot nowadays apparently. You can't even trust him when he says he's going all out. What I think happened, was that Gohan was indeed training this whole time, but the main focus was getting his body back in fighting shape like Piccolo mention at the end of RoF. He struggled to turn SSJ in RoF, remember? Or it could just be a Toei addition, but that's still anime canon.


**edit

I personally took the whole "did you think I was doing nothing while you were busy with your scholarly life" remark as an indication that Gohan stopped training after re-taking the "fighting 101" sessions with Piccolo - who reportedly was still in the process of "re-training Gohan from scratch".

Good point. Just furthers shows the inconsistency of the show. Since they were beating the point of him training in the background pretty hard.

[TheSaiyanGod]

I just can't see RoSaT doing that much for Vegeta. He definitely got stronger, but a 60% increase seems insane for a solo training session, especially when he doesn't think three years of training with Goku will result in much difference.

Vegeta got that strong because of anger, Black said it.

Besides Vegeta needs to be stronger than a powered up version of SSR Black that was stronger than angered Goku that was stronger than SSR Black that kicked their ass.

This is contradictory to my see,Or at least Black was wrong.
It became clear that Vegeta got stronger due to his training, including in the NEP Goku says to show the results of his training to Black.

For me it does not make sense to be a Rage Boost, since everything indicated that he really got stronger

I think a way to interpret Gohan's current strenght is going by how big of a boost his Ultimate form is. We know from the Buu saga that the Ultimate form was a big increase, even bigger than the SSJ3. Going by their match in base forms, both Goku and Gohan seemed pretty equal. If they were equal in base forms, then in SSJ and SSJ2 they would be equal. However, since Ultimate form is < SSJ3, then Ultimate Gohan is obviously far stronger than SSJ2 Goku.

How can we compare Ultimate Gohan with SSJB Goku? Well, the boost of SSJB we know is far stronger than the Ultimate form, therefore Goku in SSJB was far stronger than Ultimate Gohan, but far weaker than Ultimate Gohan in both his SSJ2 and SSJ3 forms.

It may be that now, his Ultimate form is not able to give such a boost in his power, as it was in the Boo Saga. After all, Goku was much weaker than Gohan in that Saga.

But Goku clearly showed to be able to face Gohan only in the form of SSJ2, which already means enough thing. At most he would be stronger than Goku SSJ3.

The base form of Goku having Gotenks SSJ3 level now got kind of weird. After all, how could Gohan, who barely endured Piccolo in SSJ2, have such an increase in base form?
The only reason would be to consider the state '' Beyond god '' even though it has never been mentioned in the anime.

[ZombieVito]

I just can't see RoSaT doing that much for Vegeta. He definitely got stronger, but a 60% increase seems insane for a solo training session, especially when he doesn't think three years of training with Goku will result in much difference.

Vegeta got that strong because of anger, Black said it.

Besides Vegeta needs to be stronger than a powered up version of SSR Black that was stronger than angered Goku that was stronger than SSR Black that kicked their ass.

This is contradictory to my see, or at least Black I just DID.
It became clear that Vegeta got stronger due to his training, including in the NEP Goku says to show the results of his training to Black.

For me it does not make sense to be a Rage Boost, since everything indicated that he really got stronger

It's a good thing I didn't say that.

[Beyond]

As messed up as power levels are now. The order of power in the cast is kind of what I would have ideally wanted. The only change I would want is to have Piccolo/17/18 all around the same strength. I don' t care if it's through nerfing 17 or buffing the other two, but I think that SSB Goku>SSB Vegeta>Ultimate Gohan>>>17/Piccolo>=18>>>Krillin>Roshi>Tien is pretty ideal. The execution is garbage, but whatever. I just can't help but feel 17 being out of Piccolo and 18's league is a disturbance in the force. It just shouldn't be the case. Even with Gohan getting 1000x power, 17 power up still bugs me a lot more.

[Bullza]

In the manga did Black in his Rose form lose energy rapidly like Vegeta did in his Blue form? If not...why?

Why was Vegeta not stronger than Black after eating the senzu bean aswell? Is the form really that ineffective that it can only be used a few milliseconds at a time to get the most out of it?

How does this idea even work with the events of Resurrection F in the manga? Golden Frieza's big weakness was that his energy dropped fast but the manga makes it seem as though that's true for Goku and Vegeta's Blue form too so how'd they beat him?

[ZombieVito]

In the manga did Black in his Rose form lose energy rapidly like Vegeta did in his Blue form? If not...why?

Why was Vegeta not stronger than Black after eating the senzu bean aswell? Is the form really that ineffective that it can only be used a few milliseconds at a time to get the most out of it?

How does this idea even work with the events of Resurrection F in the manga? Golden Frieza's big weakness was that his energy dropped fast but the manga makes it seem as though that's true for Goku and Vegeta's Blue form too so how'd they beat him?

He did not.

Trunks says Goku and Vegeta can't get Zenkai's anymore because they trained their bodies to the limit.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[BlueBasilisk]

Here's my take on Team Universe 7 after watching Episode 90 twice:
Goku>Vegeta>Golden Frieza>17>Gohan>Piccolo>18>Krillin>Roshi>Tien

Gohan showed fantastic power in this episode. He's definitely much stronger than he was in the Buu saga, but I don't think he's on the level of SSB yet since Goku didn't feel pressured to transform beyond SS2 when Gohan claimed to be going all out. That's nothing to scoff at; in the FT arc, Gowasu said Goku's SS2 was comparable to a God of Destruction. Him being mid-card just shows how loaded the upper half of the bracket is.

I want to put Tien higher but his showings in the last two episodes sadly don't inspire much confidence. As of right now he appears to be the low man on U7's totem pole. Frieza is the hard one to place. His Golden form easily had SSB Goku on the ropes in the RoF arc, but he can't sustain it for very long and has had no time to train it. Unless he's granted extra stamina due to his condition, I assume he'll spend a lot of the battle in his final form, which appeared to be marginally stronger than Base Goku. Goku seemed to be hanging with him evenly, but he said he wouldn't be able to put Frieza away without transforming. That puts him behind Gohan, but I'm not sure how he compares to the current Piccolo.

[TheSaiyanGod]

There is no reason why Gohan was even close to Goku SSG since he was pressured by Goku SSJ2, even using all his power. He hit punches that were irrelevant in Goku SSB, we do not even know how much force he was using (if he defeated Gohan there , He would not have actually used up all his power).
As I had already said, even Trunks lasted a few seconds against Black SSJ Rosé, and yet he was not stronger than Goku or Vegeta. There is absolutely nothing to prove that Gohan is In this level

I don't think he was using his full power against SSJ2 Goku. It's a bit confusing because going by their fight in Base form then SSJ2 Gohan should have been a match for SSJ2 Goku so Ultimate Gohan should have won without any problem but he didn't.

Goku did tell him to unleash more power and surely he would have so he must have gotten more powerful as the fight went on. Plus he was telling Goku to be serious and fight at full strength so maybe he was holding back for that reason.

Either way only after Goku went Blue did Gohan mention about using his full strength.

No. After Goku turns into SSJ2, he tells Gohan to release his power (Image below)

[spoiler][/spoiler]

After using the Ultimate form, Gohan says that this is his '' current full power''.(Image below).Then he just repeats that, but from the start he's going all out.And even so Gohan was pressured by Goku SSJ2, having goku being superior several times. He would not have to hold on because he wanted to show his worth to his father. But at no point was it said that Goku was having everything on SSB, Gohan just asked for his maximum power which was SSB with Kaioken

[spoiler][/spoiler]

[Kagari]

There is no reason why Gohan was even close to Goku SSG since he was pressured by Goku SSJ2, even using all his power. He hit punches that were irrelevant in Goku SSB, we do not even know how much force he was using (if he defeated Gohan there , He would not have actually used up all his power).
As I had already said, even Trunks lasted a few seconds against Black SSJ Rosé, and yet he was not stronger than Goku or Vegeta. There is absolutely nothing to prove that Gohan is In this level

I don't think he was using his full power against SSJ2 Goku. It's a bit confusing because going by their fight in Base form then SSJ2 Gohan should have been a match for SSJ2 Goku so Ultimate Gohan should have won without any problem but he didn't.

Goku did tell him to unleash more power and surely he would have so he must have gotten more powerful as the fight went on. Plus he was telling Goku to be serious and fight at full strength so maybe he was holding back for that reason.

Either way only after Goku went Blue did Gohan mention about using his full strength.

No. After Goku turns into SSJ2, he tells Gohan to release his power (Image below)

[spoiler][/spoiler]

After using the Ultimate form, Gohan says that this is his '' current full power''.(Image below).Then he just repeats that, but from the start he's going all out.And even so Gohan was pressured by Goku SSJ2, having goku being superior several times. He would not have to hold on because he wanted to show his worth to his father. But at no point was it said that Goku was having everything on SSB, Gohan just asked for his maximum power which was SSB with Kaioken

[spoiler][/spoiler]

If anything Gohan was the one who started pressuring SSJ2 Goku after Goku told him to draw out more power. Gohan powers up and starts thrashing Goku around like nothing. Gohan tells Goku to get serious and Goku finally goes Blue, to which Gohan manages to keep up with before Goku goes into SSBKK.

[TheSaiyanGod]

I don't think he was using his full power against SSJ2 Goku. It's a bit confusing because going by their fight in Base form then SSJ2 Gohan should have been a match for SSJ2 Goku so Ultimate Gohan should have won without any problem but he didn't.

Goku did tell him to unleash more power and surely he would have so he must have gotten more powerful as the fight went on. Plus he was telling Goku to be serious and fight at full strength so maybe he was holding back for that reason.

Either way only after Goku went Blue did Gohan mention about using his full strength.

No. After Goku turns into SSJ2, he tells Gohan to release his power (Image below)

[spoiler][/spoiler]

After using the Ultimate form, Gohan says that this is his '' current full power''.(Image below).Then he just repeats that, but from the start he's going all out.And even so Gohan was pressured by Goku SSJ2, having goku being superior several times. He would not have to hold on because he wanted to show his worth to his father. But at no point was it said that Goku was having everything on SSB, Gohan just asked for his maximum power which was SSB with Kaioken

[spoiler][/spoiler]

If anything Gohan was the one who started pressuring SSJ2 Goku after Goku told him to draw out more power. Gohan powers up and starts thrashing Goku around like nothing. Gohan tells Goku to get serious and Goku finally goes Blue, to which Gohan manages to keep up with before Goku goes into SSBKK.

Gohan did not press Goku SSJ2 after telling him to fight seriously. He just threw it up, does not mean anything. In fact, it was clear in the episode that the only reason Goku had to use the SSB was gohan's request.

That we would not even see the Blue form so much that Goku started in SSJ2 with Ultimate Gohan Full Power traits, which already nullifies any chance of him being close to the SSB. He having held Goku for a few seconds is not enough parameter to set his level. Trunks SSJ2 was inferior to Goku SSJ3, this was clear, it's still held Black SSJ Rosé for a few seconds. It became clear that Gohan at most rival Goku SSJ3, soon to have endured Goku SSB for a few seconds (no effect) does not define his level, even more That we do not know how much power Goku SSB used, only that he went with everything while using the kaioken