"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Lord Beerus]

the anime could have had Goku had gone ssbkkx20 and it would have made sense to as Vegeta and ssj2 trunks pushed it back. It was also only an instant


Goku is literally fighting him evenly here

It obviously a plot point in Toriyama's outline for SSJB Goku, in some capacity, to fight evenly with Megred Zamasu. It can't be avoided. Even it makes no fucking sense and throws the power scaling out of whack.

The problem is its literally the same BS as Vegeta jobbing to black, training for half a day, and then coming back and kicking his butt.. Its so infuriating because it literally gives no thought to the methods or reasons whatsoever. Its trash work, with zero literary effort. We deserve better than to be served half backed crap.

I really don't care about the Goku point too much as much as I care about the overall outline not being up to snuff where even separate groups of writers cant reasonably and logically save it.
To be honest I feel like the Dragon Room was in response to them getting Toriyama's possibly-crappy half-assed outline back and realizing they can't continue on indefinitely like that.

So is Toriyama the source for a majority of the narrative issues that plague both the Super manga and anime?

[Dbzfan94]

We may be getting the Genki Dama sword after all?

FUCK. YES.

You actually like that crap?

[SansrivaaL]

If Goku is not able to rival Merged Zamasu, then we do not know what level of his Power Boost after mastering the SSB form
It would still be implied if he overcame Vegeta or not ...

But it's very strange, Vegeta trains a lot on RoSaT, can switch between SSG and SSB, so Goku simply dominates the SSB form in a way that Vegeta never did? If Trunks is able to cure Vegeta, then maybe he will do the same.

I'll wait to get the translation to state it better.

But Vegeta already declined Trunks healing him claiming that it would be better if Goku fights Zamasu since they're on equal terms or at least thats how he see's it.

But,According to Goku's talk in the manga, he's just wasting time.
Even Zamasu himself says that the Saiyans overestimate their power right?

I think you can not be sure of the Power Boost yet. It seems that Goku was only healed because of the leading role.
He also wanted Vegeta to get full control of SSB, Goku does not seem to have had any training to do this

Yeah but that doesnt deny what Vegeta said, he see's Goku's SSJB can fight equally with Merged Zamasu while he himself cannot.

Was there a powerboost? its just Goku able to fight at a 100% all the time cause he mastered the form.
Why are you bringing the ''because he's the lead role'' thing here? Goku was healed because he's the only one right now who can duke it out with Zamasu.

[TheMikado]

So is Toriyama the source for a majority of the narrative issues that plague both the Super manga and anime?

Yes and no. The narrative is definitely jacked because of it, however what really screwed the pooch for the anime was the SSG/Two base shenanigans. These kinds of garbage ass pulls are already bad enough on their own, but the anime and Toei have the added issue of having no idea how strong the characters are actually suppose to be at any given time.
That actually makes it so bad as a negative that it turns into a positive because everything is so vague that viewers are forced to ignore it and enjoy it as presented.

I think that's why we have wildly different opinion. One group has literally become immune to it all and just enjoying the ride. I've actually been complaining less and moving more to that side because I can't even really feel outraged over anything that happens anymore.

[TheSaiyanGod]

But Vegeta already declined Trunks healing him claiming that it would be better if Goku fights Zamasu since they're on equal terms or at least thats how he see's it.

But,According to Goku's talk in the manga, he's just wasting time.
Even Zamasu himself says that the Saiyans overestimate their power right?

I think you can not be sure of the Power Boost yet. It seems that Goku was only healed because of the leading role.
He also wanted Vegeta to get full control of SSB, Goku does not seem to have had any training to do this

Yeah but that doesnt deny what Vegeta said, he see's Goku's SSJB can fight equally with Merged Zamasu while he himself cannot.

Was there a powerboost? its just Goku able to fight at a 100% all the time cause he mastered the form.
Why are you bringing the ''because he's the lead role'' thing here? Goku was healed because he's the only one right now who can duke it out with Zamasu.

This makes Vegetto useless.
With SSB control, it would only be able to fight with all power constantly. By activating SSB for a few seconds, it does the same.
Why did not he use this strategy and defeat Black and Zamasu?

This also sends all of Vegeta's training to the trash

The only explanation is that the SSB control has actually given a Power Boost in Goku

[Lord Beerus]

We may be getting the Genki Dama sword after all?

FUCK. YES.

You actually like that crap?

Hell. Fucking. Yes.

It's the most spectacular nonsense that Dragon Ball has ever produced.

[Dbzfan94]

We may be getting the Genki Dama sword after all?

FUCK. YES.

You actually like that crap?

Hell. Fucking. Yes.

It's the most spectacular nonsense that Dragon Ball has ever produced.

Nonsense is definitely accurate.

[OLKv3]

So is Toriyama the source for a majority of the narrative issues that plague both the Super manga and anime?

Yes and no. The narrative is definitely jacked because of it, however what really screwed the pooch for the anime was the SSG/Two base shenanigans. These kinds of garbage ass pulls are already bad enough on their own, but the anime and Toei have the added issue of having no idea how strong the characters are actually suppose to be at any given time.
That actually makes it so bad as a negative that it turns into a positive because everything is so vague that viewers are forced to ignore it and enjoy it as presented.

I think that's why we have wildly different opinion. One group has literally become immune to it all and just enjoying the ride. I've actually been complaining less and moving more to that side because I can't even really feel outraged over anything that happens anymore.

I was like that with the anime, but not the manga, since it had the rep of "being written better". But it's appearing to be just as nonsensical as the anime

[Kanassa]

We may be getting the Genki Dama sword after all?

FUCK. YES.

You actually like that crap?

Hell yeah, it was pretty damn awesome, I just wished it went on longer.

Speaking of length, the anime and Manga again have the opposite problem in this regard. The anime ending to this arc felt like it tried to do too much in too little time, where as manga does very little over a long period of time.

[Lord Beerus]

So is Toriyama the source for a majority of the narrative issues that plague both the Super manga and anime?

Yes and no. The narrative is definitely jacked because of it, however what really screwed the pooch for the anime was the SSG/Two base shenanigans. These kinds of garbage ass pulls are already bad enough on their own, but the anime and Toei have the added issue of having no idea how strong the characters are actually suppose to be at any given time.
That actually makes it so bad as a negative that it turns into a positive because everything is so vague that viewers are forced to ignore it and enjoy it as presented.

I think that's why we have wildly different opinion. One group has literally become immune to it all and just enjoying the ride. I've actually been complaining less and moving more to that side because I can't even really feel outraged over anything that happens anymore.

In all fairness, the anime got fucked over when Toriyama decided to bring back the original SSJ forms to keep Goku and Vegeta below Beerus, as is his current intention with the current power hierarchy of Goku and Vegeta surpassing Beerus. And that tidbit was provided after the BOG and ROF retelling, where the whole 6-10-15 was still applicable. So it was obvious that Toriyama had a last minute change of heart on how strong he wanted Goku and Vegeta to be in the new material. And because of this Toei and Toyotaro had to all of a sudden drastically change the power hierarchy and influx of the power scaling in narrative(s).

Everything about this decision caught Toei and Toyotaro incredibly off guard. But Toei got fucked over the hardest by this because this change in the power scaling happened right after the events of Resurrection F. And by that time Toei already had several episodes scripted and several episodes in the animation process based off of Toriyama's previous mentality. So they pretty much had to roll with the idea that Goku was incredibly strong in his Base form until the concept of the the Future Trunks arc threw an almighty spanner in the their approach to battle powers, and they had no other but to quietly retcon Goku's strength.

Basically, and both the anime and manga were caught up in the middle of the this mess of Toriyama arbitrarily changing how strong he wanted to make the cast. With the anime having the whole "SSJ2 Raging Vegeta = 10% Beerus" moment and the manga having Base Goku practically no sell a ki blast attack at point blank range from SSJB Vegeta. Both the anime and the manga got fucked over by Toriyama's indecisiveness. But the format of the manga Toyotaro's role within it allows any change to be more easy and fluid, while the weekly anime, that has episodes written and animation produced several weeks in advance, would have a tougher time dealing with this. Although, you could argue that even Toyotaro did handle this change gracefully because nothing has still contradicted or explained what we saw in chapter five of the manga with Goku practically no-selling a ki-blast at point blank range from SSJB after the events of Resurrection F in-universe.

It's all a combination case of lack of proper communication, along with Toriyama having a very late change of heart in the perspective for how he thought the narrative should have been handled. Toriyama obviously wanted to bring back the golden SSJ forms and it was in the plot outline so neither Toei or Toyotaro could ignore it and just had to find a way to roll with it.

[HeroR]

So is Toriyama the source for a majority of the narrative issues that plague both the Super manga and anime?

Yes and no. The narrative is definitely jacked because of it, however what really screwed the pooch for the anime was the SSG/Two base shenanigans. These kinds of garbage ass pulls are already bad enough on their own, but the anime and Toei have the added issue of having no idea how strong the characters are actually suppose to be at any given time.
That actually makes it so bad as a negative that it turns into a positive because everything is so vague that viewers are forced to ignore it and enjoy it as presented.

I think that's why we have wildly different opinion. One group has literally become immune to it all and just enjoying the ride. I've actually been complaining less and moving more to that side because I can't even really feel outraged over anything that happens anymore.

The two-base theory was always fan nonsense with no backing other than cherry-picking. The anime made it clear that Goku and Vegeta don't have this super powered second base form that they never used except with Freeza for some reason. They have one super strong base, it's as simple as that v

Toei made it clear how strong the characters are. Fans just don't want to accept it.

[SansrivaaL]

This makes Vegetto useless.
With SSB control, it would only be able to fight with all power constantly. By activating SSB for a few seconds, it does the same.
Why did not you use this strategy and defeat Black and Zamasu?

This also sends all of Vegeta's training to the trash

The only explanation is that the SSB control has actually given a Power Boost in Goku

He is, but at the time in universe at least he's a logical choice since Vegetto is still better than just Goku perfecting SSJB.
No it doesnt, being at SSJB all the time is still a better stat than going in and out of the form since you leave yourself vulnerable when you power down to a lower form, Vegeta was just that above Black that had SSJG work.
Not all strategy works out, they had it in the bag tbh, but Vegeta was too slow on the get go and didnt fire a blast when Black and Zamasu was planning on fusing.

Vegeta's got himself his own answer on how to use SSJB efficiently, Goku just perfected it faster. Is this any surprise? we're talking about the same guy that perfected the SSJ form in the Cell games that had Vegeta pissed despite training longer in RoSaT.

That depends, maybe they were outclassed back then cause they cant use SSJB to its full potential, tho I would argue that Goku literally blasted a hole in his chest (prev chapter)

[HeroR]

So is Toriyama the source for a majority of the narrative issues that plague both the Super manga and anime?

Yes and no. The narrative is definitely jacked because of it, however what really screwed the pooch for the anime was the SSG/Two base shenanigans. These kinds of garbage ass pulls are already bad enough on their own, but the anime and Toei have the added issue of having no idea how strong the characters are actually suppose to be at any given time.
That actually makes it so bad as a negative that it turns into a positive because everything is so vague that viewers are forced to ignore it and enjoy it as presented.

I think that's why we have wildly different opinion. One group has literally become immune to it all and just enjoying the ride. I've actually been complaining less and moving more to that side because I can't even really feel outraged over anything that happens anymore.

In all fairness, the anime got fucked over when Toriyama decided to bring back the original SSJ forms to keep Goku and Vegeta below Beerus, as is his current intention with the current power hierarchy of Goku and Vegeta surpassing Beerus. And that tidbit was provided after the BOG and ROF retelling, where the whole 6-10-15 was still applicable. So it was obvious that Toriyama had a last minute change of heart on how strong he wanted Goku and Vegeta to be in the new material. And because of this Toei and Toyotaro had to all of a sudden drastically change the power hierarchy and influx of the power scaling in narrative(s).

Everything about this decision caught Toei and Toyotaro incredibly off guard. But Toei got fucked over the hardest by this because this change in the power scaling happened right after the events of Resurrection F. And by that time Toei already had several episodes scripted and several episodes in the animation process based off of Toriyama's previous mentality. So they pretty much had to roll with the idea that Goku was incredibly strong in his Base form until the concept of the the Future Trunks arc threw an almighty spanner in the their approach to battle powers, and they had no other but to quietly retcon Goku's strength.

Basically, and both the anime and manga were caught up in the middle of the this mess of Toriyama arbitrarily changing how strong he wanted to make the cast. With the anime having the whole "SSJ2 Raging Vegeta = 10% Beerus" moment and the manga having Base Goku practically no sell a ki blast attack at point blank range from SSJB Vegeta. Both the anime and the manga got fucked over by Toriyama's indecisiveness. But the format of the manga Toyotaro's role within it allows any change to be more easy and fluid, while the weekly anime, that has episodes written and animation produced several weeks in advance, would have a tougher time dealing with this. Although, you could argue that even Toyotaro did handle this change gracefully because nothing has still contradicted or explained what we saw in chapter five of the manga with Goku practically no-selling a ki-blast at point blank range from SSJB after the events of Resurrection F in-universe.

It's all a combination case of lack of proper communication, along with Toriyama having a very late change of heart in the perspective for how he thought the narrative should have been handled. Toriyama obviously wanted to bring back the golden SSJ forms and it was in the plot outline so neither Toei or Toyotaro could ignore it and just had to find a way to roll with it.

No offense, but this is all assumption with no backing.

Toriyama never said he was getting rid of the golden Super Saiyan forms. That has always been an assumption made by fans when they say Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan and they don't want to let this mindset go.

[OLKv3]

So is Toriyama the source for a majority of the narrative issues that plague both the Super manga and anime?

Yes and no. The narrative is definitely jacked because of it, however what really screwed the pooch for the anime was the SSG/Two base shenanigans. These kinds of garbage ass pulls are already bad enough on their own, but the anime and Toei have the added issue of having no idea how strong the characters are actually suppose to be at any given time.
That actually makes it so bad as a negative that it turns into a positive because everything is so vague that viewers are forced to ignore it and enjoy it as presented.

I think that's why we have wildly different opinion. One group has literally become immune to it all and just enjoying the ride. I've actually been complaining less and moving more to that side because I can't even really feel outraged over anything that happens anymore.

The two-base theory was always fan nonsense with no backing other than cherry-picking. The anime made it clear that Goku and Vegeta don't have this super powered second base form that they never used except with Freeza for some reason. They have one super strong base, it's as simple as that v

Toei made it clear how strong the characters are. Fans just don't want to accept it.

They used it again after the U6 arc, where Vegeta effortlessly stomped SSJ3 Gotenks
Then later SSJ Goku struggled with a non trained SSJ Gohan

[OLKv3]

Yes and no. The narrative is definitely jacked because of it, however what really screwed the pooch for the anime was the SSG/Two base shenanigans. These kinds of garbage ass pulls are already bad enough on their own, but the anime and Toei have the added issue of having no idea how strong the characters are actually suppose to be at any given time.
That actually makes it so bad as a negative that it turns into a positive because everything is so vague that viewers are forced to ignore it and enjoy it as presented.

I think that's why we have wildly different opinion. One group has literally become immune to it all and just enjoying the ride. I've actually been complaining less and moving more to that side because I can't even really feel outraged over anything that happens anymore.

In all fairness, the anime got fucked over when Toriyama decided to bring back the original SSJ forms to keep Goku and Vegeta below Beerus, as is his current intention with the current power hierarchy of Goku and Vegeta surpassing Beerus. And that tidbit was provided after the BOG and ROF retelling, where the whole 6-10-15 was still applicable. So it was obvious that Toriyama had a last minute change of heart on how strong he wanted Goku and Vegeta to be in the new material. And because of this Toei and Toyotaro had to all of a sudden drastically change the power hierarchy and influx of the power scaling in narrative(s).

Everything about this decision caught Toei and Toyotaro incredibly off guard. But Toei got fucked over the hardest by this because this change in the power scaling happened right after the events of Resurrection F. And by that time Toei already had several episodes scripted and several episodes in the animation process based off of Toriyama's previous mentality. So they pretty much had to roll with the idea that Goku was incredibly strong in his Base form until the concept of the the Future Trunks arc threw an almighty spanner in the their approach to battle powers, and they had no other but to quietly retcon Goku's strength.

Basically, and both the anime and manga were caught up in the middle of the this mess of Toriyama arbitrarily changing how strong he wanted to make the cast. With the anime having the whole "SSJ2 Raging Vegeta = 10% Beerus" moment and the manga having Base Goku practically no sell a ki blast attack at point blank range from SSJB Vegeta. Both the anime and the manga got fucked over by Toriyama's indecisiveness. But the format of the manga Toyotaro's role within it allows any change to be more easy and fluid, while the weekly anime, that has episodes written and animation produced several weeks in advance, would have a tougher time dealing with this. Although, you could argue that even Toyotaro did handle this change gracefully because nothing has still contradicted or explained what we saw in chapter five of the manga with Goku practically no-selling a ki-blast at point blank range from SSJB after the events of Resurrection F in-universe.

It's all a combination case of lack of proper communication, along with Toriyama having a very late change of heart in the perspective for how he thought the narrative should have been handled. Toriyama obviously wanted to bring back the golden SSJ forms and it was in the plot outline so neither Toei or Toyotaro could ignore it and just had to find a way to roll with it.

No offense, but this is all assumption with no backing.

Toriyama never said he was getting rid of the golden Super Saiyan forms. That has always been an assumption made by fans when they say Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan and they don't want to let this mindset go.

Yes he did. He said Goku would only use normal SSJ

[TheSaiyanGod]

This makes Vegetto useless.
With SSB control, it would only be able to fight with all power constantly. By activating SSB for a few seconds, it does the same.
Why did not you use this strategy and defeat Black and Zamasu?

This also sends all of Vegeta's training to the trash

The only explanation is that the SSB control has actually given a Power Boost in Goku

He is, but at the time in universe at least he's a logical choice since Vegetto is still better than just Goku perfecting SSJB.
No it doesnt, being at SSJB all the time is still a better stat than going in and out of the form since you leave yourself vulnerable when you power down to a lower form, Vegeta was just that above Black that had SSJG work.
Not all strategy works out, they had it in the bag tbh, but Vegeta was too slow on the get go and didnt fire a blast when Black and Zamasu was planning on fusing.

Vegeta's got himself his own answer on how to use SSJB efficiently, Goku just perfected it faster. Is this any surprise? we're talking about the same guy that perfected the SSJ form in the Cell games that had Vegeta pissed despite training longer in RoSaT.

That depends, maybe they were outclassed back then cause they cant use SSJB to its full potential, tho I would argue that Goku literally blasted a hole in his chest (prev chapter)

Training 1 year in RoSaT, with Gohan and realize that the best way to get used to the SSJ is to stay in the transformation as long as possible is ONE THING.

Now dominate the SSB form without undergoing any kind of training like Vegeta, and gain an absurd boost of power?
Are you telling me that Goku has always had this strength Since the beginning of the Black Saga? A force capable of rivaling Merged Zamasu? That does not make sense.
The perfect control of the SSB is a very interesting concept, and a Power boost would also give that transformation a greater potential, but give it to Goku in that way, and still make it increase so much power does not make sense, at least for me.

Of course I'm saying this before leaving the full manga, that's what I imagine

[Lord Beerus]

In all fairness, the anime got fucked over when Toriyama decided to bring back the original SSJ forms to keep Goku and Vegeta below Beerus, as is his current intention with the current power hierarchy of Goku and Vegeta surpassing Beerus. And that tidbit was provided after the BOG and ROF retelling, where the whole 6-10-15 was still applicable. So it was obvious that Toriyama had a last minute change of heart on how strong he wanted Goku and Vegeta to be in the new material. And because of this Toei and Toyotaro had to all of a sudden drastically change the power hierarchy and influx of the power scaling in narrative(s).

Everything about this decision caught Toei and Toyotaro incredibly off guard. But Toei got fucked over the hardest by this because this change in the power scaling happened right after the events of Resurrection F. And by that time Toei already had several episodes scripted and several episodes in the animation process based off of Toriyama's previous mentality. So they pretty much had to roll with the idea that Goku was incredibly strong in his Base form until the concept of the the Future Trunks arc threw an almighty spanner in the their approach to battle powers, and they had no other but to quietly retcon Goku's strength.

Basically, and both the anime and manga were caught up in the middle of the this mess of Toriyama arbitrarily changing how strong he wanted to make the cast. With the anime having the whole "SSJ2 Raging Vegeta = 10% Beerus" moment and the manga having Base Goku practically no sell a ki blast attack at point blank range from SSJB Vegeta. Both the anime and the manga got fucked over by Toriyama's indecisiveness. But the format of the manga Toyotaro's role within it allows any change to be more easy and fluid, while the weekly anime, that has episodes written and animation produced several weeks in advance, would have a tougher time dealing with this. Although, you could argue that even Toyotaro did handle this change gracefully because nothing has still contradicted or explained what we saw in chapter five of the manga with Goku practically no-selling a ki-blast at point blank range from SSJB after the events of Resurrection F in-universe.

It's all a combination case of lack of proper communication, along with Toriyama having a very late change of heart in the perspective for how he thought the narrative should have been handled. Toriyama obviously wanted to bring back the golden SSJ forms and it was in the plot outline so neither Toei or Toyotaro could ignore it and just had to find a way to roll with it.

No offense, but this is all assumption with no backing.

Toriyama never said he was getting rid of the golden Super Saiyan forms. That has always been an assumption made by fans when they say Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan and they don't want to let this mindset go.

Yes he did. He said Goku would only use normal SSJ

Yep.

Toriyama flat out stated he thought that Goku wouldn't need to transform into SS2/3 anymore following the events of Battle Of Gods:

Super Saiyan 2 and 3 are nothing more than powered-up variations of Super Saiyan. After the fight with Beerus, Goku realized that mastering his normal state and Super Saiyan would raise his level more and sap less strength, so I think he probably won’t become Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any more.

He'd only need Super Saiyan for the purpose of would later become Super Saiyan Blue, but that was as much action as the golden SSJ forms originally planned to get. Toriyama seemed to displayed no intention of Goku using the other original golden SSJ forms in an actual fighting capacity in potential future material but something obviously changed.

[HeroR]

They used it again after the U6 arc, where Vegeta effortlessly stomped SSJ3 Gotenks
Then later SSJ Goku struggled with a non trained SSJ Gohan

If they had this second weaker base form, why didn't anyone say anything when base form Goku fought Frost and then Hit. Are you telling me that Goku used his weaker base form against Hit instead of his super powered base?

Yes he did. He said Goku would only use normal SSJ

He said Goku will focused on making his base and Super Saiyan forms stronger and he may not used Super Saiyan 2 and 3 again. Nothing about he would get rid of the golden Super Saiyan forms.

[SansrivaaL]

Training 1 year in RoSaT, with Gohan and realize that the best way to get used to the SSJ is to stay in the transformation as long as possible is ONE THING.

Now dominate the SSB form without undergoing any kind of training like Vegeta, and gain an absurd boost of power?
Are you telling me that Goku has always had this strength Since the beginning of the Black Saga? A force capable of rivaling Merged Zamasu? That does not make sense.
The perfect control of the SSB is a very interesting concept, and a Power boost would also give that transformation a greater potential, but give it to Goku in that way, and still make it increase so much power does not make sense, at least for me.

Of course I'm saying this before leaving the full manga, that's what I imagine

You keep on pushing this boost of power thing like its been stated but it was not, Goku is just able to fight at a 100% all the time, there was no indication of a power boost until a missing chapter says so.
Why does it not make sense if he had this power before hand? he had SSJBKK in the anime that knocked the ring of light out of Zamasu but didnt use it against Black (which makes it more worst in the anime because Black pissed him off and yet didnt use SSJBKK)
We still have no idea on how Goku got it, if it was while he was fighting or he had it all along.

[Lord Beerus]

Yes he did. He said Goku would only use normal SSJ

He said Goku will focused on making his base and Super Saiyan forms stronger and he may not used Super Saiyan 2 and 3 again. Nothing about he would get rid of the golden Super Saiyan forms.

Super Saiyan 2 and 3 are nothing more than powered-up variations of Super Saiyan. After the fight with Beerus, Goku realized that mastering his normal state and Super Saiyan would raise his level more and sap less strength, so I think he probably won’t become Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any more.

And this was after Toriyama stated that Goku had absorbed the power of Super Saiyan God, had made it his own and wouldn't need to transform into Super Saiyan God again:

I think you’ll understand if you watch [the movie], but Goku has already absorbed [Super Saiyan] God’s power and made it his own, so there is no need for him to transform into [Super Saiyan] God. Goku basically only thinks of fighting as a sporting match, so borrowing the power of five people isn’t fair, and he resisted doing that; however, it seems his curiosity towards the realm that lay even further beyond him won out.