"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Kanassa]

And in another case in the Majin Boo arc, SSJ2 Vegeta performs a self-destruct/explosion type technique that reduces Majin Boo, SSJ3 tier character, to ashes,

A bit off topic, but I forgot; what was the explanation for Buu surviving that?

[mute_proxy]

The manga is it's own product. It has been for quite a while now

[Boo Machine]

And in another case in the Majin Boo arc, SSJ2 Vegeta performs a self-destruct/explosion type technique that reduces Majin Boo, SSJ3 tier character, to ashes,

A bit off topic, but I forgot; what was the explanation for Buu surviving that?

I don't think there was one. He just kinda did.

[OLKv3]

And in another case in the Majin Boo arc, SSJ2 Vegeta performs a self-destruct/explosion type technique that reduces Majin Boo, SSJ3 tier character, to ashes,

A bit off topic, but I forgot; what was the explanation for Buu surviving that?

Regen. It didn't affect his ki at all. It didn't really hurt Buu

I wonder how many chapters we have left. I think we have 2 more, unless they rush the ending.

[Neo-Makaiōshin]

The manga is it's own product. It has been for quite a while now

Skipping one whole arc and handwaving it happened makes its status of "being its own product" quetionable.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

And in another case in the Majin Boo arc, SSJ2 Vegeta performs a self-destruct/explosion type technique that reduces Majin Boo, SSJ3 tier character, to ashes,

A bit off topic, but I forgot; what was the explanation for Buu surviving that?

Regen. It didn't affect his ki at all. It didn't really hurt Buu

I wonder how many chapters we have left. I think we have 2 more, unless they rush the ending.

From what I've seen, this chapter basically seems like an excuse to keep things going on longer, which is bizarre. There's surely a plan at work here, and I'm very curious as to what it is. In any case, I'm going to extend my predicted end time to July.

Skipping one whole arc and handwaving it happened makes its status of "being its own product" quetionable.

That was 2015. The manga was a very different product at the time, and we know for a fact that it only follows its own internal consistency. Its standalone nature isn't in question.

[mute_proxy]

The manga is it's own product. It has been for quite a while now

Skipping one whole arc and handwaving it happened makes its status of "being its own product" quetionable.

That's why I said 'for a while'. Initially it was promo, after the rehashed parts and a skip, it started doing it's own thing

[Zephyr]

The manga is it's own product. It has been for quite a while now

Skipping one whole arc and handwaving it happened makes its status of "being its own product" quetionable.

I think a better way to phrase that would be "the manga is its own follow-up to Battle of Gods and Revival of F". Unlike the anime, it had the good graces to do a recap rather than a retelling, and filled its recap with Champa arc foreshadowing, making said recap's existence feel at least somewhat worthwhile.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Vegeta being monstrously stronger in his SSJ2 form for no apparent reason shows they aren't equals. Especially since that SJ2 form places him above Goku with the exception of arguably Goku using SSJG and higher.

Is that why base Goku forced Vegeta to transform into SSB during their sparring match?

We see Roshi blow up the fucking moon with a battle power of 180. Yet we see the likes of Goku, Raditz, and Piccolo, who are several times stronger than that, and the best they do is blow up mountains.

What are you talking about, Early Saiyan Arc Piccolo casually blew up the moon.

And then when Vegeta powered up at the beginning of his fight against Goku in the Saiyan arc, he was created cyclones from it, turned the skies dark and literally made the whole world shake. And yet the only time we see anything even remotely similar to that is when Goku is powering up... into a SSJ3. Which is tens of millions stronger than anything we see in the Saiyan arc.

It was never said that the cyclones that Vegeta created have to be created by every power that has this level & above. It appears that this happened because Vegeta raised his ki violently, while others after that just didn't.

And then later in the Namek arc, we see that you don't need a big gap in strength at all to kill you opponent, as clearly demonstrated with Vegeta and Zarbon fight each other. Hell, a very minuscule gap in power is more than enough to overwhelm and kill your opponent. And then when Goku hits Vegeta, who has a BP of 18,000, with his KKx4 Kamehameha, which has a BP of over 32,000, Vegeta still survives from that. How the hell does Vegeta not instantly die from an attack like that?

Vegeta couldn't one-shot Zarbon, and as for Dodoria, he was scared to death & couldn't even fight back properly because of that.

Then you have Goku stating that he couldn't defeat Majin Boo at the beginning of the arc, which is a very crucial plot point at that time, and then he later state he could have actually defeated Majin Boo.

And he also said that he didn't do it because as a dead man, it wasn't his job to interfere with the problems of the living, while he wanted to make the boys stronger through this in order for them to be able to protect the Earth not only from Majin Boo, but from future threats as well.

And in another case in the Majin Boo arc, SSJ2 Vegeta performs a self-destruct/explosion type technique that reduces Majin Boo, SSJ3 tier character, to ashes, and yet Babidi, who gets cut in half like a hot knife through butter by Piccolo, who's no stronger than the Super Saiyans in the Majin Boo arc, survives completely unscathed despite the fact he was within the proximity of the explosion.

Babidi used magic, he didn't become stronger than SS2 Vegeta for a chapter.

But we see with Gohan and Oob that you don't necessarily need a new transformation to indicate that a character has gone beyond their limits.

Gohan & Oob still had a lot of untapped potential when they were getting rage boosts. You don't see Ultimate Gohan or GT Oob getting rage boosts for a reason.

Goku constantly talking about how Gohan had gotten far stronger than even he himself could have believed. Goku even goes further and mentions that Gohan hidden amount of power that he was able to awaken while training with Gohan in the ROSAT. So Gohan had by all means shattered his own glass ceiling during his training with Goku in the ROSAT, and then when saw it for ourselves with it manifesting into a completely new form: Super Saiyan 2.

No, Gohan simply surpassed Goku, and had even more power hidden inside him, which Goku wanted to bring out by having Gohan fight Cell. Nothing indicates that Gohan had surpassed his limits through training.

Getting a "rage boost" is not the only indication of a character training beyond their limits. We see characters like Krillin and Gohan getting their potential unlocked and their power increasing as result of them training beyond their limits at that time.

Training doesn't only draw out dormant powers, it also develops the power a fighter already has. Current Goku gets stronger through training, but not because he still has dormant powers in him, but because he develops the power he already has.

As a matter of fact, if there is any true indication of character training beyond their limits, it's when they gain a completely new Super Saiyan form. We see Future Trunks, Vegeta, Goku and Gohan gaining new Super Saiyan forms a s result of all of them training beyond their initial limits as well. Nobody ever comments that Vegeta's gained a new form SSJ2 form when he raged against Beerus. And that moment is never brought up again after that, even in-directly. When a new form is gained there always a visual distinction of the new form or a comment made in-universe that the character has attained a completely new SSJ form. The only comment that is made is Vegeta's case is that his power dramatically increased. Not that he had gained a new form. Let alone a completely distinctive SSJ2 form.

It's not a new form, it's an upgraded version of SS2. And this is what we see:

SS2 Vegeta gets really angry in BoG, he surpassed SS3 Goku & U. Gohan.
SS2 Trunks fights evenly with SS2 Goku in Future Trunks arc, but Trunks says that he wasn't satisfied with the power of SS2, and powers-up even further without transforming, reaching SS3 Goku's level, surprising everyone. This is the first direct indication of an upgraded SS2 form.
SS2 Vegeta fights with SS Black, displays power far greater than SS3 Goku & U. Gohan, exactly like back then against Beerus. We've already seen that SS2 can be upgraded, and Vegeta is supposed to rival Goku at full power (SSB), so it's safe to assume that Vegeta has upgraded his SS2 at an even greater level than Trunks did.

It's so simple, really.

[Lord Beerus]

stuff and things

Okay... this is getting out of hand.

I'll just say this:

If Vegeta kept his upgraded SSJ2 form, someone would have made a comment in-universe that he had done so. Much like Goku and Gohan mastering the original SSJ and increasing its strength and efficiency in the form as result. But nobody makes that distinction. Not Vegeta, not Goku, not Future Trunks... nobody. You just have to make the assumption that Vegeta kept his Mutated/Raging/Whatever-the-fuck SSJ2 form from the BOG arc, but the major issue is that it's never implied to be the case right up until he face Goku Black.

For the record, I don't mind the idea that Vegeta kept his Mutated/Raging Super Saiyan 2 form. The problem, as I've stated before, is that it's never implied, hinted or even indirectly inferred that the rage boost Vegeta got against Beerus in the BOG arc was permanent. That's just not how rage boosts even work. I just have a very hard time buying that Vegeta permanently unlocked his own mutated SSJ2 form because of how poorly the manga implies that to be the case. Regardless of how much supposed hidden potential Vegeta have to tap into with rage. Which in itself is poorly foreshadowed and barely indicated in the original. Vegeta keeping his enhanced SSJ2 form is much like Goku and Vegeta having two base forms in the anime... it's a theory. Not an indisputable, stone cold fact. By a hypothesis. But it unfortunately lacks any solid foundation in the story beyond the use of other fandom theories and hypothesis. But, hey, whatever floats people's power level boats.

But this debate is really going in circles. So let's just agree to disagree about this and move on.

[Noah]

There's nothing wrong with bending the battle power "rules" if it makes the narrative more interesting. But the anime is quite guilty off taking that liberty to certain extremes and I've called out the anime for it in the past several times. But the manga had always provided good alternative with making the power scaling more coherent, even it did make to overall narrative less interesting. It's just a shame that things have effectively gone to shit now in manga to with keeping the strength in check.

Well, you sure know more about the manga than me, so I ask you: how the power scaling of the manga is screwed now? It wasn't long ago by the time SSJ2 Vegeta was able to overwhelm SSJ Black?

[Jinzoningen MULE]

The manga is it's own product. It has been for quite a while now

Skipping one whole arc and hand waving it happened makes its status of "being its own product" questionable.

I think a better way to phrase that would be "the manga is its own follow-up to Battle of Gods and Revival of F". Unlike the anime, it had the good graces to do a recap rather than a retelling, and filled its recap with Champa arc foreshadowing, making said recap's existence feel at least somewhat worthwhile.

I disagree with that framing too, because the manga's BoG not only retold the movie, it changed quite a bit. But not only did a change quite a bit, it also made implicit changes retroactively.

[Lord Beerus]

There's nothing wrong with bending the battle power "rules" if it makes the narrative more interesting. But the anime is quite guilty off taking that liberty to certain extremes and I've called out the anime for it in the past several times. But the manga had always provided good alternative with making the power scaling more coherent, even it did make to overall narrative less interesting. It's just a shame that things have effectively gone to shit now in manga to with keeping the strength in check.

Well, you sure know more about the manga than me, so I ask you: how the power scaling of the manga is screwed now? It wasn't long ago by the time SSJ2 Vegeta was able to overwhelm SSJ Black?

To be honest, SSJ2 Vegeta overwhelming SSJ Goku Black was always a major red flag. But you could maybe handwave that with the headcanon that Vegeta retained his Mutated SSJ2 form, even though that's never implied to be the case. But 100% SSJB Goku being able to challenge Merged Zamasu is pure nonsense. Especially since we later see a fully healed and refreshed SSJB Vegeta take on SSJ Goku Black and still get his butt kicked. It's not even a case that you couldn't maintain SSJB at 100% in past. Both Goku and Vegeta seemingly technically could. It's just that Goku can suddenly do it for longer amounts of time, while Vegeta could only seemingly maintain 100% of the strength of SSJB for only a very brief period. Hence why he told Future Trunks to heal Goku instead of him. Goku would be able to fight Merged Zamasu at 100% much longer than Vegeta would be able to as he has perfected the form by prevent any ki from leaking out it. But for some unearthly reason, fighting at 100% of the power of SSJB gives you a monster power up from it.

[Dragon Wukong]

Just posting my two cents, but I don't think Goku fending off Merged Zamasu is all that far-fetched in the manga if Goku has mastered Super Saiyan Blue. For one, the two halves of him had a HUGE gap in their power, with Black being Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, essentially, and Future Zamasu being weaker than Trunks, who at his best was SS3 level. Given the sheer gap between those two levels in power, assuming the power gap is similar to SS3 Goku and Beerus in the movies, leads me to believe Merged Zamasu wouldn't be that much more powerful. Indeed, the main benefits of Black fusing with Zamasu seems to have been Black's power combined with the immortality and mystical abilities of the Kai, in addition to how fusing two of the same mind seems to offer greater control of ones body.

Basically, I don't think MZamasu is so powerful in the manga that he's an insurmountable wall in terms of strength, only that his strength combined with his immortality and abilities means that it's something they need to deal with until the fusion is waited out, and that makes sense to me given his components.

At the very least, I prefer how it's dealt with in the manga as opposed to MZamasu in the anime, who was comprised of two SSB-level fighters, yet was able to be pushed back Vegeta+Trunks Galick Gun and SSBKK Goku, before turning into what I call half of BioBroly's body if it fused with an eggplant.

[HeroR]

Just posting my two cents, but I don't think Goku fending off Merged Zamasu is all that far-fetched in the manga if Goku has mastered Super Saiyan Blue. For one, the two halves of him had a HUGE gap in their power, with Black being Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, essentially, and Future Zamasu being weaker than Trunks, who at his best was SS3 level. Given the sheer gap between those two levels in power, assuming the power gap is similar to SS3 Goku and Beerus in the movies, leads me to believe Merged Zamasu wouldn't be that much more powerful. Indeed, the main benefits of Black fusing with Zamasu seems to have been Black's power combined with the immortality and mystical abilities of the Kai, in addition to how fusing two of the same mind seems to offer greater control of ones body.

Basically, I don't think MZamasu is so powerful in the manga that he's an insurmountable wall in terms of strength, only that his strength combined with his immortality and abilities means that it's something they need to deal with until the fusion is waited out, and that makes sense to me given his components.

At the very least, I prefer how it's dealt with in the manga as opposed to MZamasu in the anime, who was comprised of two SSB-level fighters, yet was able to be pushed back Vegeta+Trunks Galick Gun and SSBKK Goku, before turning into what I call half of BioBroly's body if it fused with an eggplant.

Goku and Vegeta were fodder before Super Buu after he absorbed several people, yet when they fused they stomped Super Buu as a merge Super Saiyan. So even if Black and Future Zamasu was weaker, the fusion of them should smashed Goku and Vegeta into the ground, full power or not.

In the anime, Goku, Vegeta, and Trunks had the benefit of Merged Zamasu being a cocky jackass who played with them and didn't used anywhere near his full power until Goku hurt him. After that, he was serious and Goku said the only way for them to win was to fused.

The manga was going in the same direction, until this nonsense with Mastered Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku being able to take hits from Merged Zamasu who should be at full power or near it. Goku in the anime had to break both of his arms to hurt a suppressed Merged Zamasu and used the Kaioken.

[Boo Machine]

Just posting my two cents, but I don't think Goku fending off Merged Zamasu is all that far-fetched in the manga if Goku has mastered Super Saiyan Blue. For one, the two halves of him had a HUGE gap in their power, with Black being Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, essentially, and Future Zamasu being weaker than Trunks, who at his best was SS3 level. Given the sheer gap between those two levels in power, assuming the power gap is similar to SS3 Goku and Beerus in the movies, leads me to believe Merged Zamasu wouldn't be that much more powerful. Indeed, the main benefits of Black fusing with Zamasu seems to have been Black's power combined with the immortality and mystical abilities of the Kai, in addition to how fusing two of the same mind seems to offer greater control of ones body.

Basically, I don't think MZamasu is so powerful in the manga that he's an insurmountable wall in terms of strength, only that his strength combined with his immortality and abilities means that it's something they need to deal with until the fusion is waited out, and that makes sense to me given his components.

At the very least, I prefer how it's dealt with in the manga as opposed to MZamasu in the anime, who was comprised of two SSB-level fighters, yet was able to be pushed back Vegeta+Trunks Galick Gun and SSBKK Goku, before turning into what I call half of BioBroly's body if it fused with an eggplant.

But fusion doesn't just combine the powers. When two people fuse it makes a much greater Power than the sum of the two who make up the fusion. It's why Goku and Vegeta could easily take Buuhan when they became Vegito. It kinda just depends who the people fusing are. So, yeah MZamasu's strength could be anything I suppose since there are no hard numbers, but I wouldn't call the increase in power small and certainly not small enough to fully buy Goku suddenly being able to take him on an even plain. Not that I mind. I think it's pretty cool.

[Dragon Wukong]

While the whole "greater than the sum" thing is true, I also remember (I think it was) Old Kai saying that Vegito was stronger due to their rivalry when they fused. The main point I was trying to make was that, while yes, fusion between two characters regardless of strength should be greater than their sum, their overall strength relative to eachother should still matter. In terms of overall strength, Zamasu is practically an insect compared to Black, and I feel the strength gained from fusing him and Black was still greater than their sum, even discounting magical abilities and immortality. I don't believe Merged Zamasu has been surpassed by Goku anyways yet, though admittedly I'm waiting for the Viz release soon. I just think it makes sense to me that Merged Zamasu can't outright curbstomp people like Vegito can.

[HeroR]

While the whole "greater than the sum" thing is true, I also remember (I think it was) Old Kai saying that Vegito was stronger due to their rivalry when they fused. The main point I was trying to make was that, while yes, fusion between two characters regardless of strength should be greater than their sum, their overall strength relative to eachother should still matter. In terms of overall strength, Zamasu is practically an insect compared to Black, and I feel the strength gained from fusing him and Black was still greater than their sum, even discounting magical abilities and immortality. I don't believe Merged Zamasu has been surpassed by Goku anyways yet, though admittedly I'm waiting for the Viz release soon. I just think it makes sense to me that Merged Zamasu can't outright curbstomp people like Vegito can.

It would make no sense for Merged Zamasu not to surpassed Goku since fodder Goku and Vegeta utterly surpassed Super Buu after absorbing the strongest beings in the universe and Vegetto didn't come near his full power. Unless you think the rival boots gives a huge, huge increase, Merged Zamasu should easily surpassed Goku in any form.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

But fusion doesn't just combine the powers. When two people fuse it makes a much greater Power than the sum of the two who make up the fusion. It's why Goku and Vegeta could easily take Buuhan when they became Vegito. It kinda just depends who the people fusing are. So, yeah MZamasu's strength could be anything I suppose since there are no hard numbers, but I wouldn't call the increase in power small and certainly not small enough to fully buy Goku suddenly being able to take him on an even plain. Not that I mind. I think it's pretty cool.

That's one interpretation, and the most popular, but there's another possibility. Most people's working idea is very mathematic, something like 50[(Power)A + (Power)B] = Fusion. My idea is simpler, but I believe it still works, especially in this instance: It's simply a combination of the two parties, but not just of their power levels. A combination of their styles, experience, strengths, instincts, and power, and with two fusees with ample, diverse proficiencies (see: Goku and Vegeta), you get a well-rounded, complimentary fusion that far exceeds the sum of its parts. This also kinda (not really) explains the "rivalry boost". However, when you get two people without much diversity, such as two slight variations of the same person, the fusion will result in a greater being with improved abilities, and possibly supreme control of his body, but is still deficient in areas where neither fusee had any aptitude. If that's true, then Zamasu's fusion is deficient by its very nature, and an independent being that's mastered such a powerful transformation as Blue matching or overpowering him is plausible.

My idea of fusion is essentially the same as reproduction; The new being contains aspects of both parties, dominant/shared traits are more strongly expressed, etc. Of course, there are also fundamental differences; Instead of various random aspects combining into one person, the two stack on top of each other to create a superbeing. There's obviously the fact that experience is combined, rather than pure genetics. The principle is similar, though, and I stand by my hypothesis. Basically, Vegetto is a healthy merger and Zamasu is an inbred.

Not often I talk in-universe stuff. I need a sip of water.

[Boo Machine]

But fusion doesn't just combine the powers. When two people fuse it makes a much greater Power than the sum of the two who make up the fusion. It's why Goku and Vegeta could easily take Buuhan when they became Vegito. It kinda just depends who the people fusing are. So, yeah MZamasu's strength could be anything I suppose since there are no hard numbers, but I wouldn't call the increase in power small and certainly not small enough to fully buy Goku suddenly being able to take him on an even plain. Not that I mind. I think it's pretty cool.

That's one interpretation, and the most popular, but there's another possibility. Most people's working idea is very mathematic, something like 50[(Power)A + (Power)B] = Fusion. My idea is simpler, but I believe it still works, especially in this instance: It's simply a combination of the two parties, but not just of their power levels. A combination of their styles, experience, strengths, instincts, and power, and with two fusees with ample, diverse proficiencies (see: Goku and Vegeta), you get a well-rounded, complimentary fusion that far exceeds the sum of its parts. This also kinda (not really) explains the "rivalry boost". However, when you get two people without much diversity, such as two slight variations of the same person, the fusion will result in a greater being with improved abilities, and possibly supreme control of his body, but is still deficient in areas where neither fusee had any aptitude. If that's true, then Zamasu's fusion is deficient by its very nature, and an independent being that's mastered such a powerful transformation as Blue matching or overpowering him is plausible.

My idea of fusion is basically the same as reproduction; The new being contains aspects of both parties, dominant/shared traits are more strongly expressed, etc. Of course, there are also fundamental differences; Instead of various random aspects combining into one person, the two stack on top of each other to create a superbeing. There's obviously the fact that experience is combined, rather than pure genetics. The principle is similar, though, and I stand by my hypothesis. Basically, Vegetto is a healthy merger and Zamasu is an inbred.

Not often I talk in-universe stuff. I need a sip of water.

This idea of combining more than just power levels is definitely the more fun possibility to think about and it makes sense. It could also be why Vegito can do things that the two separately don't do. Like the ki sword. Fusions do make an entirely different person after all, and it's not just two people piloting one mech.