"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[HeroR]

Goku during the MT Saga only once used the Kaioken, even almost dying and with the future of Trunks in danger. He was not shown perfecting the Kaioken once, but he used it smoothly against Merged Zamasu. Black could get stronger, but there came a time when he was on the edge, so much so that he took a beating of Trunks and Vegeta and had to resort to rage to get the scythe. This is not just in the manga

Nope, there's no comparison here. It was shown and stated in the Champa Saga that the Kaioken had only 10% success rate of just activating it. Failure meant Goku crippled himself or even dying. Overusing can also make Goku sick and crippled him forever. It's not until recently that Goku can used the basic Kaioken with no danger to himself. So Goku couldn't just used it at anytime during the Future Trunks Saga and only resorted to it when he literally had no options left. Just because he activated it once without exploding doesn't mean he activated it smoothly. Especially when it lasted for only one attack.

This mastered form of Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, however, haven't been shown to have anywhere near these harsh limits.

[Zephyr]

I think a better way to phrase that would be "the manga is its own follow-up to Battle of Gods and Revival of F". Unlike the anime, it had the good graces to do a recap rather than a retelling, and filled its recap with Champa arc foreshadowing, making said recap's existence feel at least somewhat worthwhile.

I disagree with that framing too, because the manga's BoG not only retold the movie, it changed quite a bit. But not only did a change quite a bit, it also made implicit changes retroactively.

I don't think it made too many damning narrative changes, in-universe minutia aside.

Also just read the chapter. Viz had Vegeta call him "Goku" twice this chapter. C'mon! Also, regarding the plothole, I don't think enough is explicitly spelled out. Perhaps temp-Kaioshin are still capable of operating the time rings (as Zamasu clearly was), without being fully promoted to the point where they lose their healing power (as Zamasu clearly is not). Unless we assume that, like, Zamasu temporarily lost his healing powers during that little trip to Barbari, but gained them again when they returned to U10's Kaioshin Realm. That seems more silly than anything else, to me.

Also, soft-confirmation that Shin was in fact Dai Kaioshin's apprentice. Would then stand to reason that the other 3 were as well. Nice to have something of an official explanation (even if it's through implications) for why U7 seemingly had way more Kaioshin than the other Universes.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Goku during the MT Saga only once used the Kaioken, even almost dying and with the future of Trunks in danger. He was not shown perfecting the Kaioken once, but he used it smoothly against Merged Zamasu. Black could get stronger, but there came a time when he was on the edge, so much so that he took a beating of Trunks and Vegeta and had to resort to rage to get the scythe. This is not just in the manga

Nope, there's no comparison here. It was shown and stated in the Champa Saga that the Kaioken had only 10% success rate of just activating it. Failure meant Goku crippled himself or even dying. Overusing can also make Goku sick and crippled him forever. It's not until recently that Goku can used the basic Kaioken with no danger to himself. So Goku couldn't just used it at anytime during the Future Trunks Saga and only resorted to it when he literally had no options left. Just because he activated it once without exploding doesn't mean he activated it smoothly. Especially when it lasted for only one attack.

This mastered form of Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, however, haven't been shown to have anywhere near these harsh limits.

How can you not compare? Did you see the time Goku took to activate Kaioken in the tournament? He still disperses the aura, concentrates quickly, and only then says Kaioken. Against Gattai Zamasu there was no prior preparation, he simply said "Kaioken" and ready. In the manga, Vegeta said that Goku's body could break with the dominated SSB, not to mention that during the fight, Goku suffered burns while trying to contain the Ki leak. It's as risky as the Kaioken

[Basako]

Also, soft-confirmation that Shin was in fact Dai Kaioshin's apprentice. Would then stand to reason that the other 3 were as well. Nice to have something of an official explanation (even if it's through implications) for why U7 seemingly had way more Kaioshin than the other Universes.

This is very interesting, but I'm not sure we got all the answers about this. Shin was in fact the apprentice of the previous Kaioshin at some point, probably the other three too, but when did he become the lord of lords?

[Jinzoningen MULE]

I find it funny that Mastered SSB is basically 1:1 with the anime's SSBK x10. It makes you wonder why Toyotaro didn't introduce this earlier. Not to say he can't use SSG at all, but this more powerful form seems to have been Toriyama's intention, and the timing of this sudden new form is kinda garbage. I liked the chapter otherwise, but as I suspected, it's a stalling tactic for something else. At first, I figured it would be to balance the chapters, but it seems more that Toyotaro is trying to stretch this story out for some reason or another.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

It also felt to me that this SSGSS "mastering" was setting up to introduce KK into the Manga continuity and why it was Goku who "mastered" it here not Vegeta it seems KK is a big part of the U.S arc and I think Toyo realises he won't be able to skirt around it anymore.

Also with Trunks doing the healing things he has now fully embraced his secondary character role in how own arc! To the point Toyo has stopped giving a crap on drawing him properly! That is the only negative I have on the chapter and it really saddens me.

[Noah]

Shin: "I wish I wasn't a Kaioshin so I could have my restoration powers."
Gowasu: "If you weren't a Kaioshin, you wouldn't be able to use the Time Rings and come here in the first place."
Shin: "Nah, I could always kill my Kaioshin & steal his Potara and Time Rings."
Gowasu: "Silly me, just like Zamasu did, right?"

Man, what a plot-hole.

IKR? I'm glad I didn't even bother reading this chapter, the anime had it's own bullsh**s like Merged Zamasu toying with the Saiyans and Goku being able to be more effective than Vegeta and Trunks combined Galick Gun, but the anime still miles better than this.

[Ikazvyr]

I find it funny that Mastered SSB is basically 1:1 with the anime's SSBK x10. It makes you wonder why Toyotaro didn't introduce this earlier. Not to say he can't use SSG at all, but this more powerful form seems to have been Toriyama's intention, and the timing of this sudden new form is kinda garbage. I liked the chapter otherwise, but as I suspected, it's a stalling tactic for something else. At first, I figured it would be to balance the chapters, but it seems more that Toyotaro is trying to stretch this story out for some reason or another.

I think it's ok that mastered SSB is 1:1. This particular transformation seems to be more powerful in the manga that it is in the anime. The stamina issue only made we to NOT SEE this real full power, at least for Vegeta. It's like we saw Vegeta using 0,5:1 vs. Hit and only momentary 1:1 vs. Black. It's valid to remember that SSBK x10 still didn't beat Hit (even that I think it could) neither Zamasu, so the gap is there. The anime just introduced an new technique/transformation when Toyo chooses to keep one that's there and made both equal

[The gr]

Shin: "I wish I wasn't a Kaioshin so I could have my restoration powers."
Gowasu: "If you weren't a Kaioshin, you wouldn't be able to use the Time Rings and come here in the first place."
Shin: "Nah, I could always kill my Kaioshin & steal his Potara and Time Rings."
Gowasu: "Silly me, just like Zamasu did, right?"

Man, what a plot-hole.

IKR? I'm glad I didn't even bother reading this chapter, the anime had it's own bullsh**s like Merged Zamasu toying with the Saiyans and Goku being able to be more effective than Vegeta and Trunks combined Galick Gun, but the anime still miles better than this.

Then your missing out a lot, despite the inconsistency, This chapter was arguably one of the better one in comparison to other,the art got better,it didn't over did the homage and the figthing choreography was brilliant, just deal with it the Manga had plothole/retcon since chapter 21

[LightBing]

I find it funny that Mastered SSB is basically 1:1 with the anime's SSBK x10. It makes you wonder why Toyotaro didn't introduce this earlier. Not to say he can't use SSG at all, but this more powerful form seems to have been Toriyama's intention, and the timing of this sudden new form is kinda garbage. I liked the chapter otherwise, but as I suspected, it's a stalling tactic for something else. At first, I figured it would be to balance the chapters, but it seems more that Toyotaro is trying to stretch this story out for some reason or another.

Maybe(probably) he didn't have time in the previous arc. He did rush the Super Dragon Balls summoning sequence to a page or two. While I don't like the inception here, overall it's been an interesting struggle which added dimension to SSJ Blue.
It's a shame that it came out of nowhere, instead of a thought rationalization with training on top, like Vegeta learning SSJG to overcome Rosé Black, at the very least.
Toyotarõ skipped the best part.

For a stretched out chapter this one was pretty good. I don't mind these.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

For a stretched out chapter this one was pretty good. I don't mind these.

Don't get me wrong, I like these chapters, they'll do nothing but add to the value of revisiting the product. I'm just curious as to the purpose.

[TheSaiyanGod]

It's really like I thought. Goku just saw another way to dominate SSB, unlike Vegeta. While Vegeta tried to minimize the energy expenditure, using the SSB for a few seconds, Goku tried to master the transformation by controlling the Ki that leaked from it, eliminating all weaknesses. This opens up gaps so that Vegeta can also get through hard training.I do not know why they complain so much about this "perfect SSB", it equals the Kaioken.

Goku's body can break at any moment and has side effects when trying to contain the Ki leak. It's as risky as the Kaioken. I liked the little "tips" that were given about the healing power of the Trunks with Mai and Gowasu being healed in previous chapters.
Apparently Shin learned this ritual. I thought Goku was forced to face Gattai Zamasu, even with all the side effects. Despite this, it shows a bigger exploration and the potential of SSB, which is interesting

[Lord Frieza]

This Mastered SSB is turning out worse then Rage.

Rage at least was the result of Trunks's pent up emotional turmoil, so he didn't have it all the time and could have just killed Black, and at least has Vegeta's Mutant SS2 and his own Mastered SS2 to give the form some kind of bare bones build up. MSSB is running close to the Genki Sword in terms of WTAF!

How so? Unlike the Gendikama sword this makes sense. It makes the entire arc a rehash of Boo arc, but its still logical.

True. The great power of Goku can be forced yes, but incoherently not. The concept of controlling the SSB perfectly, without letting Ki overflow to use the maximum potential form makes sense and is a very interesting exploration of the form.Inclusive I think they introduced too early the Kaioken in the anime, and maybe should not have even introduced that

Sorry I've not been back for a while.

My major issue is that it impels, since SSB's power drain only happens during the power up/down, that Blue makes its user loose a very substantial amount of their energy just to turn it on. We are talking 25% at least.

That means that our heroes have been very lucky that manga Hit was so weak and manga Black/ Zamasu is so stupid otherwise they'd be dead or in u6 by now.

[MagmonKai]

Either Toyotaro is going to jump straight into the US arc or he's going to be far behind. I wish the anime stretched the fight a bit longer. I'm not buying Goku being able to Go toe-to-toe with Merged Zamasu, that's insane. The Trunks healing thing is a nice touch, but why wouldn't the Kaioshin not be able to heal? At first it seemed like he couldn't teleport, now he can without kibito. This could be an manga only thing though.

[FortuneSSJ]

Ironically both products rushed Vegetto's diffusion.

Unless we aren't talking about a major battle, it's a bad idea the characters fuse and diffuse in the same episode/chapter.
Have an episode/chapter of SSB Vegetto vs Merged with the diffusion happening in the next one makes the story flow much better.

[LightBing]

I just realized how many similarities this arc has to the Androids Arc/Cell Arc.

First we have Trunks show up to warn them, he also tests his power against Goku. Then we have the main villain constantly evolving, mid point during the evolution he loses to Vegeta. He never fight's Goku until he reaches his highest stage. Vegeta also evolves during the battle, replace SSJG here with Grade 2 in the Cell Arc.
Goku is smarter than Vegeta and get's a better result of the same objective: 100% SSJB is the same as Mastered SSJ.

[ekrolo2]

I just realized how many similarities this arc has to the Androids Arc/Cell Arc.

First we have Trunks show up to warn them, he also tests his power against Goku. Then we have the main villain constantly evolving, mid point during the evolution he loses to Vegeta. He never fight's Goku until he reaches his highest stage. Vegeta also evolves during the battle, replace SSJG here with Grade 2 in the Cell Arc.
Goku is smarter than Vegeta and get's a better result of the same objective: 100% SSJB is the same as Mastered SSJ.

You forgot the most important one: the time travel is horrendously convoluted.

[LightBing]

I just realized how many similarities this arc has to the Androids Arc/Cell Arc.

First we have Trunks show up to warn them, he also tests his power against Goku. Then we have the main villain constantly evolving, mid point during the evolution he loses to Vegeta. He never fight's Goku until he reaches his highest stage. Vegeta also evolves during the battle, replace SSJG here with Grade 2 in the Cell Arc.
Goku is smarter than Vegeta and get's a better result of the same objective: 100% SSJB is the same as Mastered SSJ.

You forgot the most important one: the time travel is horrendously convoluted.

I did. Good to know that my brain is so well trained that it omits time-travel automatically.

[LowRyder2005]

It was pointless in the sense that Goku could have defeated Black after he went Rose for the first time and defeated Vegeta. Goku could have rushed over there and fought Black while Trunks handled Future Zamasu. Sealing him wasn't even necessary according to Goku since he was so pitifully weak that even Trunks could beat him up. Black was the main threat and Goku could have ended him early and saved the remaining humans on Earth by not retreating.

Well, that's kind of obvious, but I don't see the issue: it's made abundantly clear that Vegeta is the one who wants to fight Black no matter what; Goku's only fault is that he complies (and there's also the fact that the revelation of Zamas' immortality happens immediately after). I also think he wants to join Vegeta at some point, who simply scoffs at the idea and asks Goku to take care of Zamas.

If we want to talk about the Z fighters fighting as efficiently as possible, this has hardly happened ever since post-Namek. This case is not even a serious offender.

And Goku could have used this to finished Black once he went Rose and trashed Vegeta. Or why didn't he use this when they were taking turns the first time fighting Merged Zamasu?

I don't really feel like re-reading the manga to triple-check, but I distinctly remember that every time Goku fought before this chapter he was either handling the regular Zamas and/or fighting after having powered down from Super Saiyan Blue to base/ Super Saiyan. Accordingly, he was never at full stamina up until Trunks' intervention.

[Kanassa]

I just realized how many similarities this arc has to the Androids Arc/Cell Arc.

First we have Trunks show up to warn them, he also tests his power against Goku. Then we have the main villain constantly evolving, mid point during the evolution he loses to Vegeta. He never fight's Goku until he reaches his highest stage. Vegeta also evolves during the battle, replace SSJG here with Grade 2 in the Cell Arc.
Goku is smarter than Vegeta and get's a better result of the same objective: 100% SSJB is the same as Mastered SSJ.

It can also be likened to the Buu arc as well in a general sense.

You forgot the most important one: the time travel is horrendously convoluted.

I don't remember the Time Travel being convoluted back in the Cell arc, it was one of the few methods of time travel I think actually works without the universe collapsing on itself. You can't change the current timeline, but you can make a branch.