Editorial: The Placement of Movies 8 and 10.

[Duo]

Hey Daizenshuu EX Forum-goers. I recently became motivated to write a fairly extensive analysis of a favorite subject of debate throughout fandom in regards to the Broli movies. I finished it about 5 minutes ago and want some opinions on both the writing and the points made in it. I've thought about submitting it to the website, but I'm not sure VegettoEX cares enough for the subject to accept it. I'll probably still try after I get some feedback.

And so, here it it.

Edit - Minor changes made to the first paragraph 12 hours after original posting.



In the English-speaking fan communities of the Dragonball universe, there are several misconceptions ranging from errors present in the FUNimation dub to factual contradictions in the Japanese Anime, along with various internet-spread misconceptions. Some of these misconceptions spawn from various takes on the Dragonball Z Movies, which count to 13. Commonly, the disagreement is over whether or not said movies fit into the main Dragonball Z storyline. Of course, most of them cannot do such, and among those that don't there are two movies which hold the greatest number of mysteries and confliction between fans.

It is my belief that I have found the answers to understanding these Movies and making the most sense their place in the overall Dragonball Z universe. While these movies are not capable of co-existing with the core Dragonball Z storyline, each one bases it's character designs and strength levels on a certain point in the story. You could say they "extract" the characters as they are at a certain point and place them in an alternate plot-line. For the sake of argument, let's say that the writers of the movies take the characters from 3 months before the Movie premiers in Japan. In the case of Movie 8, there are two viewpoints taken - before the warriors entered the Room of Spirit and Time, or after they exit it. This is usually abbreviated to "Pre-RoSaT" and "Post-RoSaT".

The reason for this is, of course, the fact that there are details about the characters that support both sides almost evenly. Son Goku and his child, Gohan, were both in a state of everlasting Super Saiyan after exiting the Chamber, but not so during the movie. On the other side of the coin, Trunks hair cut is the same as when he exited the Room of Spirit and Time. On top of that, the fact that Gohan can go Super Saiyan at all means he's been in the Room. The latter would also support the notion that Movie 8 occurred in the 9 days prior to the Cell Game. However, neither of these notions are true and present multiple conflicts within themselves. The idea that the movie has to be either "Pre-RoSaT" or "Post-RoSaT" is a misguided notion. The stretch of time in the series in which one character or another is in the Room of Spirit and Time lasts several months by the Japanese run of the Anime and the serialization of the Manga. To think the writers would wait to make sure everyone was out of the Chamber is, well, ridiculous.

When, exactly, would the characters have been "pulled" from then? Movie 8 was released in March of 1993. Three months before that would be December of 1992. The first episode that aired in that month was Episode 167, in which Cell announces the Cell Game. This is one episode before Goku and Gohan re-emerge from the Room of Spirit and Time. The Movie began production before Gohan and Goku had finished their training, and had certainly not yet shown what kind of power they had in this "full power" state. Would this not mean that the characters are based off of the period of time in which Trunks and Vegeta are fighting Cell? We actually see Goku and Gohan during this fight, training in the Room of Spirit and Time. In the Manga, the last time we see them training, Gohan has just had his hair cut and can turn Super Saiyan. His hair length is suspiciously similar to how it looks in Movie 8. His bangs are shorter than in the Cell Game and the back has little spiking. Without doubt, the length of Gohan's hair in Movie 8 is closer to when we see him in the Room of Spirit and Time then it is in the Cell Game.

"Mid-RoSaT". The characters were extracted from the point in time in which Goku and Gohan were still training in the Room of Spirit and Time. This would be about the point in which Goku shows his ability to tap into the 2nd and 3rd type Super Saiyan transformations. They've been training enough to increase their power hugely, but not yet begun the regimen to relax themselves while transformed and hold the state all the time. The way the battles play out in the movie enforce this, because if the movie was "Post-RoSaT", there would be a huge gap between every protagonist fighter, but they all seem to be on relatively equal footing. Also, if Gohan had completed his training, he would be on the tip of being able to go past the Super Saiyan. However, despite the circumstances and how dire they become, there is no such hint at this. If he was capable, Goku would have been pushing for that instead of the odd way he goes about besting Broli. This means Gohan was not yet ready to fully tap his true Super Saiyan abilities.

Movie 10, as well, enforces this. When Gohan is fighting Broli, he notes to himself that his opponent is every bit as strong as before, and then mentions that he himself has powered up considerably since then. If Gohan had finished his training in the Room of Spirit and Time, there would be something horribly wrong with this statement, because Gohan had lost a large amount of power during the 7 years after the Cell Game. On top of that, when Gohan goes Super Saiyan, he holds out against Broli better than anyone did during Movie 8, proving that he himself had not only become stronger since then, but was greater than where everyone else was at the point of movie 8.

Some may argue that Gohan only said this because he was using Super Saiyan level 2 against Broli - but he, in fact, was not. While the physical changes in Gohan between Level 1 and 2 are basically non-existent, there are many things to be considered on this. Although the appearance of lightning in the aura is not fully consistent in the Anime when it comes to Super Saiyan 2, at this point we had only seen the stage 3 times (movies included) and each time it was obviously shown and present. The budget a movie operates on is greater that an episode of the series, so they would have no reason not to include it. On top of that, we had not yet seen whether or not Gohan was even capable of accessing this stage anymore in the series. 3 months prior to the movie, the Anime was only an episode or two into the 25th Tenka'ichi Budokai. Enforcing this further is the fact we had never seen a Saiyan skip straight to this stage from normal, and did not see this sort of thing happen until Goku confronts the fat Majin Boo, which, in the Anime, was nine months after the movie premiered.

With all of these points in mind, how can it be otherwise that Movie 8 occurred before Goku and Gohan finished their training? Is there something ridiculous about this notion I am not aware of? If one can make sense of the placement of Movie 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 11, and 12, then feel free to correct me. This also makes it a lot easier to try and figure out where Broli might stand against other villains in the series, but that's another discussion for another day. I hope I have been able to lay things out in an intelligent way and show that the common viewpoints on these movies are in error. Thank you for reading.


Footnote - I found I centered this around Gohan a lot. That was accidental, but since he changes the most and is present in both movies, it was inevitable.

[The Chibi Kiriyama]

I think I'm officially making this the thread I reference every time someone comes to the conclusion that these characters were "pre-" or "post-" anything during Movie 8. You bring up an excellent point. The filmmakers weren't really analyzing every inch of the film to make sure that every character was out of the RoSaT, just that they showed the changes in them up until the production began. The mid-RoSaT argument does rely on an awfully small window of time to be valid, but since the entire thing is non-canon that's sort of a moot point.

If we are to believe non-canon resources such as Gohan's transformation into SS2 in what the anime claims was during the timeframe in which he was still in the Room, it becomes harder to believe that Goku wouldn't take advantage of that (still being in the train of thought that opening up Gohan's rage would be beneficial instead of detrimental to success against Cell, though in an even larger view it proved to be important). And while their general weakness might be explained by a pre-RoSaT argument, the character designs clearly state otherwise.

Movie 10 has never really been a canonical issue for me, as if you believe that these films such as 8 can even feasibly happen it'd be redundant to say it doesn't fit in the timeline (like Garlic Junior's situation). The only issue for me is in explaining how Gohan didn't stomp on him given that he had tapped into the full power of the Super Saiyan state previously, but I'd just give Toei a bone on that one and say that Broli was as capable of a zenkai after that near-fatal blow (which was a bit more fatal than Movie 10 cares to reference) as any other Saiyan.

It may not make a lot of coherent sense, but I'm of the controversial opinion that not much of what involves the supposed "Legendary Super Saiyan" makes sense in the first place.

[Ozma15]

'Funimations' should be 'Funimation's' and 'dubbing' should not be capitalized.

I'm sorry if I sound kind of blunt, but if you're planning to submit it as an editorial, I thought you might like to know how to make it appear more professional. And on that same note (I hate to sound like a bitch here, but I'm going to say it anyway), I, personally, am not going to read an editorial with two mistakes like that in the very first sentence. So, I didn't. I'm sorry.

5 seconds later edit: Oops, misread something. Fixed it in my comment. Sorry again!

[caejones]

Made these comments as soon as I read the lines in question, and didn't check for any spelling/grammar mistakes one wouldn't hear.

In the fan communities of the Dragonball universe, there are several misconceptions ranging from FUNimations Dubbing errors to script mistakes in the Japanese
Anime, along with internet rumors, and common misconceptions.
<-- This sentence seems a bit... hmm... something about seeing misconceptions in multiple places, given all the sentence tries to cover, is a bit distracting.

It is my belief that I have found the answers to understanding these Movies and making the most sense <of> their place in the overall Dragonball Z universe.

And that's all that stuck out for me. The intro sentence seems almost tiring--the kind of thing that might turn one away if it wasn't clear what the later paragraphs would cover.

Yah, besides my nitpicking, I like it. the Duo does well!

*considers writing a fanfic based on my (completely ridiculous) "Broli was a product of the RoSaT" idea*

[Kaboom]

My life is now complete. I can die happy.






...Oh, no, wait. I haven't played Spidey 3 on PSP yet.

[LegendarySSJ7]

It's a valid talking point and one in intrigue, to be certain of that, and your meticulous evaluation of the dialogue structure of both the Japanese version and dub display it as such. Plus, using anime release dates in conjunction with movie release dates is a very valid way of looking at it at large. Though, beyond that, there wasn't nigh enough significant change in such a short window of time in terms of change in Goku and Gohan's power. But, again, it's all non-canon and essentially a 'what-if' scenario.

There's also the more obvious notion to further - that TOEI weren't very analytical with the movie in regards to accuracy to the Canon Manga and overlooked many minute details without a streak of gumption, though they weren't that far-off. Nevertheless, I agree with the editorial, as it goes to show the idea of all of the Zet Senshi being in the same state they were at the Cell Games (and the idea of Broli being the Legendary Super Saiyan, which the Canon Manga easily invalidates) is rather inane.

[Supa Saiya-Jin Tullece]

I think that knowing SSJ Gohan was strong enough to hold his own against Broli, we can assume Broli is around the same power as Dabura (just over Gohan, under Vegeta, Goku, Buu, ect).

This should make it easier when referencing these movies. Great editorial, IMO.

[Xyex]

I think that knowing SSJ Gohan was strong enough to hold his own against Broli, we can assume Broli is around the same power as Dabura (just over Gohan, under Vegeta, Goku, Buu, ect).

This should make it easier when referencing these movies. Great editorial, IMO.

Brolly being around the power of Dabura is too high a power though. They'd have gotten obliterated in movie 8 and Goku's last punch wouldn't have done more than sting him. Otherwise Goku wouldn't have had to let Gohan take Cell, he could have done it.

[Dragon Ball Daisuki]

Duo, nice job! You've obviously put a lot of thought into this, not just in preparation for your editorial, but in the back of your mind as well, perhaps over the course of months or years. That's been my experience with Movie 8 anyway (by far my favorite -- for the simple reason that it's the one that feels most like a movie, with a much stronger plot than its predecessors and actual character development in Vegeta's nervous breakdown).

So I've been thinking about this too, and I've developed a theory of my own!

I'm of the train of thought that each movie is meant to represent an alternate universe, in line with the concept of parellel timelines, as introduced by Trunks. That being said, I think it's entirely possible that Movie 8 takes place in an alternate timeline where Cell's been destroyed already -- either his complete transformation is averted by Vegeta in this timeline, or he and Trunks actually work together and manage to stop Kanzentai Cell, as it were. Therefore, the need no longer presents itself to "make SSJ our best form" in the case of Gohan and Goku, and they just progress along the same lines as Vegeta and Trunks, and there's certainly no need for Veggie and Son to get back in the RoSaT. Think about it.

So, having had the flaws of the second and third grade SSJ forms exposed through Cell, the Saiya-jins all use a form more similar to the first grade SSJ (as opposed to Full-Power SSJ), and are therefore much closer to Piccolo's level. So, everyone has more or less equal power.

Except for Kuririn of course. The world is not so kind.

[Kaboom]

Nice theory Daisuki, but I have one issue. Goku and Gohan wouldn't stop their training in the RoSaT just because Vegeta and/or Trunks managed to kill Cell. Heck, they continued on with their FPSSj training even though Goku assumed Vegeta would kill Cell. He was surprised he could still sense him/it when he came out.

[Dragon Ball Daisuki]

That's the hitch all right. I'm basically riding on the notion that, if Big Threat becomes Super Big Threat, you will be of an entirely different state of mind than you will be if Big Threat is dead. Now you're training merely for your own edification, and not for the sake of the Universe, as it were. When the stakes are high, you manage to pull things out of your butt. (For instance, Goku always seems to come up with a new transformation for each sucessive villain =P)

They wouldn't beg off in their training, I think they simply wouldn't have taken the same approach, in that more relaxed mind set. Of course, this theory depends heavily on the notion that Goku and Son could sense Cell's defeat, which I'm pretty sure is against the RoSaT rules, at least traditionally. There could be other factors to detract from them taking that approach, of course.

[Duo]

I have a lot to reply to! I'll try to quote only when necessary.

I think I'm officially making this the thread I reference every time someone comes to the conclusion that these characters were "pre-" or "post-" anything during Movie 8.

The idea that anyone would reference this article is an idea that fills me with glee. I have left little to no actual mark on DBZ fandom outside a select few on MFG and I hope to change that. Your supportive words and thoughts are always very appreciated and valued.

On a side note - as you know, I also don't find Broli to be particularly legendary. My regards for that title lie with Goku. But, that's another discussion for another day...that wouldn't lead very far anyway.

'Funimations' should be 'Funimation's' and 'dubbing' should not be capitalized.

I'm sorry if I sound kind of blunt, but if you're planning to submit it as an editorial, I thought you might like to know how to make it appear more professional. And on that same note (I hate to sound like a bitch here, but I'm going to say it anyway), I, personally, am not going to read an editorial with two mistakes like that in the very first sentence. So, I didn't. I'm sorry.

One of the biggest things I wanted was a review of my grammar, and it's ironic that my biggest errors were in the first sentence. That has been cleaned up. My only regret is not having you review the rest of the grammar. I hope you'll come back and give it a second chance.


@ Caejones - I cut out a part of the intro paragraph and reworded a couple sentences. Does it work better now? Also, I'm very glad you enjoyed what I had to say. I was expecting more opposition than I am receiving.

Heh, if you write that Fanfic, PM me a link. I'd read it.


@ Ssj Kaboom - Is S-M 3 on the PSP supposed to be very good? It was alright on the PS2 but some of the camera angles gave me a headache. I'm surprised my article was to you as #18 was to Cell.

It's a valid talking point and one in intrigue, to be certain of that, and your meticulous evaluation of the dialogue structure of both the Japanese version and dub display it as such. Plus, using anime release dates in conjunction with movie release dates is a very valid way of looking at it at large. Though, beyond that, there wasn't nigh enough significant change in such a short window of time in terms of change in Goku and Gohan's power. But, again, it's all non-canon and essentially a 'what-if' scenario.

The release dates have become very critical to a lot of subjects I've been researching as of late, and I have 4 web-pages I frequent often for such information, 2 of which come from Daizex, and another I had to post a thread on here in order to find. I've found that looking at the movies in context to the placement of the Manga and Anime a few months before the premier yields a lot of insight to what may have been going through the minds of the writers at the time. Though, movie 6 is utterly baffling as the movie came out several months prior to the Manga bringing Dende in as the new Kami. I am probably going to E-mail Mike about this in hopes of hearing it answered on the Podcast.

Part of the reason I find this entire subject, and the movies at large, so intriguing is that they are not directly related the story, and open up a lot of idea's and potential subjects independent from the Manga, which I already know so well. I like finding as much sense in the movies as possible, though it is not my goal at all to make them fit into the storyline, as that was never the point in their production.

This should make it easier when referencing these movies. Great editorial, IMO.

Thank you!

As far as Broli's exact strength goes...well, there's no definite way of knowing, but considering I think Gohan was only a Super Saiyan when he fought Dabra, my opinion is not far off of your own.

Duo, nice job! You've obviously put a lot of thought into this, not just in preparation for your editorial, but in the back of your mind as well, perhaps over the course of months or years. That's been my experience with Movie 8 anyway (by far my favorite -- for the simple reason that it's the one that feels most like a movie, with a much stronger plot than its predecessors and actual character development in Vegeta's nervous breakdown).

You flatter me. In truth, this actually has been an ongoing subject for me since about 3 years ago. I'm surprised you could tell that much.

As for the movie...I do think the first half holds more plot than most of the movies, but I do not much care for the second half. Broli becomes utterly one-dimensional (or...just completely stupid) after he transforms, and it remains that way for the rest of his movies. At least his clone had somewhat of an excuse, since it was a Bio-monster thing.

My only problem with the alternate-universe things is that, while it is a fun idea, I do not think the writers had such a thing in mind, and what I'm seeking is the intentions of the writers, whoever they may be.

I do, however, agree with your statement in regards to everyone's strengths, regardless.

---

I hope to hear more from others. I want some opposition to the points themselves, unless they are full-proof enough to withstand that? More grammar nit-picking is great, as well. Thanks for everything so far all who posted.

[Dark Vegeta-Sama]

Son Goku and his child, Gohan, were both in a state of everlasting Super Saiyan after exiting the Chamber, but not so during the movie.

I've always considered the idea that, since movie 8 begins with Chi Chi and Goku interviewing for Gohan to be admitted into a school, that Chi Chi basically forced Goku and Gohan to power down for the purpose of the interview and the whole first impressions thing. She'd make damn sure that Goku and Gohan had their normal black hair for what she perceives as being such an important thing, even if only for an hour or however long it would take to get through it. After that, they could resume their normal "Super Saiyan 24/7" routine until the Cell Games.

Besides, it wouldn't be the first time she's put Gohan's education ahead of his training. She literally said stupid shit like, "Gohan's education is more important than saving the world" a few times in the series.

Something to consider, at least.

Brolly being around the power of Dabura is too high a power though. They'd have gotten obliterated in movie 8 and Goku's last punch wouldn't have done more than sting him. Otherwise Goku wouldn't have had to let Gohan take Cell, he could have done it.

Yeah, but they pretty much did get obliterated by Brolly the whole time. It was a more or less a massacre except there were no casualties. If Goku hadn't used a spirit bomb, they would never have defeated Brolly.

Likewise, if not for the spirit bomb, Goku would never have defeated Kid Buu at the end of the series. It's basically the only technique that can be used to defeat a villain that's much stronger than Goku, as demonstrated a few times throughout the series and several of the movies.

[caejones]

I don't think it was a Spirit Bomb that Goku used on Broli? Though the concept was similar.
Doh, I pushed reply before looking at the rewritten intro. *reads and edits post*
[edit] The new intro flows much better. . Looks submission-class to me.
[/edit]

[Dark Vegeta-Sama]

I don't think it was a Spirit Bomb that Goku used on Broli? Though the concept was similar.
Doh, I pushed reply before looking at the rewritten intro. *reads and edits post*
[edit] The new intro flows much better. . Looks submission-class to me.
[/edit]

It seemed like it was an internal spirit bomb or something. The power being within Goku's hand instead of on the outside.

Either way, he gathered energy from others and used it to defeat the enemy. Sounds familiar. That's why I refer to it as a spirit bomb in this case.

[Kaboom]

@ Ssj Kaboom - Is S-M 3 on the PSP supposed to be very good? It was alright on the PS2 but some of the camera angles gave me a headache.

From what I hear, it's essentially a port of the PS2 version, free-roaming and all. I don't know about the camera angles or anything, but the PSP version is my only hope to play the game at this point, since I don't have any consoles and neither of my computers have the uber-high system requirements for the PC version.

[Duo]

Yeah, but they pretty much did get obliterated by Brolly the whole time. It was a more or less a massacre except there were no casualties. If Goku hadn't used a spirit bomb, they would never have defeated Brolly.

Likewise, if not for the spirit bomb, Goku would never have defeated Kid Buu at the end of the series. It's basically the only technique that can be used to defeat a villain that's much stronger than Goku, as demonstrated a few times throughout the series and several of the movies.

While it was similar to the Genki Dama in the regard that he gathered energy, it was neither stated nor really implied to be the same thing, so to me it was just a "super powered enhanced sharing energy punch thing" that didn't even fully do the bastard in. Either way, it's not really relevant to the topic itself, so I hope it doesn't get derailed into that by others.

I've always considered the idea that, since movie 8 begins with Chi Chi and Goku interviewing for Gohan to be admitted into a school, that Chi Chi basically forced Goku and Gohan to power down for the purpose of the interview and the whole first impressions thing. She'd make damn sure that Goku and Gohan had their normal black hair for what she perceives as being such an important thing, even if only for an hour or however long it would take to get through it. After that, they could resume their normal "Super Saiyan 24/7" routine until the Cell Games.

I've heard this point before. Thing is, it doesn't change the fact that Gohan's hair is shorter, and the idea this -could- even happen goes against the very reason they were training. That's when we get into "alternate timeline" stuff which isn't my goal. In the end, I look at the air/release dates and the writers wouldn't have even been aware that the can stay that way.

From what I hear, it's essentially a port of the PS2 version, free-roaming and all. I don't know about the camera angles or anything, but the PSP version is my only hope to play the game at this point, since I don't have any consoles and neither of my computers have the uber-high system requirements for the PC version.

If/when you try it, tell me what you think of it. I want to get a new PSP game sometime soon because Shin Budokai, while fun, lost it's luster not long after I conquered story mode completely.

[Kaboom]

From what I hear, it's essentially a port of the PS2 version, free-roaming and all. I don't know about the camera angles or anything, but the PSP version is my only hope to play the game at this point, since I don't have any consoles and neither of my computers have the uber-high system requirements for the PC version.

If/when you try it, tell me what you think of it. I want to get a new PSP game sometime soon because Shin Budokai, while fun, lost it's luster not long after I conquered story mode completely.

It's not coming out until the fall, November I think, to go with the DVD release of the movie. But when I pick it up, I'll be sure to let you know how good it is.

If you're looking for something in the meantime, I'd recommend Prince of Persia: Rival Swords.

...we now return you to your regularly scheduled topic.

[Dragon Ball Daisuki]

The ol' CHI-CHI MADE 'EM DO IT theory never did fly with me. Just the very notion of shopping around for schools is just so ... I mean, it's done with an eye toward the future. They're preparing for Gohan's future in a much larger way than "Study your arithmetic!". With the high-stakes of the Cell Games in the air, there would definitely be a sense of finality to those last ten days. Not even Goku thought they could win.

So yeah, not even Chi-chi would be fussing about Gohan's future. Like everyone else, she would be living in the present, enjoying the small moments, ... living in perspective.

Logic prevails!

[Dark Vegeta-Sama]

The ol' CHI-CHI MADE 'EM DO IT theory never did fly with me. Just the very notion of shopping around for schools is just so ... I mean, it's done with an eye toward the future. They're preparing for Gohan's future in a much larger way than "Study your arithmetic!". With the high-stakes of the Cell Games in the air, there would definitely be a sense of finality to those last ten days. Not even Goku thought they could win.

So yeah, not even Chi-chi would be fussing about Gohan's future. Like everyone else, she would be living in the present, enjoying the small moments, ... living in perspective.

Logic prevails!

There were many points in the series where Chi Chi displayed no sense of logic whatsoever. She often seemed to have an inability to understand dire situations. It's not like you can just ignore some of the stupid things she'd say about how important Gohan's education was and how nothing else mattered.

Also, there were a few days prior to the Cell Games when Goku and Gohan, well, did nothing but rest. It could've been one of those days when they went to the school interview. Yeah, Goku knew that he couldn't win against Cell, but everyone else thought that he could, especially because he was doing nothing but laying back and relaxing.