"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[DBZGTKOSDH]

He should tell the audience that Vegeta's kept the rage boost from the Battle of Gods stuff.

Why? It was never stated or implied to be similar to any other rage boosts*. It's not like we needed Goku to say in the beginning of the Artificial Humans arc "This is Super Saiyan, the transformation I used to beat Freeza" to tell for sure that this was Super Saiyan, and we don't need to be told that Yajirobe is an Earthling to be able to tell that Yajirobe is an Earthling.

*The only previous instances of rage boosts are with Gohan & Oob, and both of them were at a point where they still had lots of dormant powers inside them, with a big future ahead of them. Vegeta is the exact opposite, he had trained to his limits for years, he had his dormant powers drawn out beyond their limits by Babidi, and then he trained intensely for even more years. It's not the same thing at all.

The whole situation is very simple and easy to understand:

1. Vegeta rivals Goku in his base, Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan God, and Super Saiyan Blue forms.
2. Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta surpasses at one point Super Saiyan 3 Goku thanks to his rage.
3. Super Saiyan 2 Trunks rivals Super Saiyan 3 Goku, and says this was thanks to the training he did & improved his Super Saiyan 2 form.
4. Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta directly states that he is much stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Trunks.

Therefore, it's reasonable to conclude that Vegeta improved his Super Saiyan 2 form like Trunks did, but on a greater level.

[TAF108]

But why not use regular Super Saiyan instead?

More comfortable with SSJB? Because Toyotaro wanted to draw Vegeta using SSJB? There's no reason given in series, so why is just speculation on my part. Yours as well. As I could just as easily say, well why not use this amped SSJ form? Or just regular SSJG?

There is still much that was omitted in the manga. It should have been longer, without expanding things. If we were supposed to only read the manga and not watch the movies, we don't know where the hell the Pilaf Gang suddenly came from.

And that's a failure on the manga's part. In the same vein, I won't assume the Pilaf gang were at Bulma's party, because we weren't shown that they were. Maybe they joined up during the RoF Arc we didn't see.

Toriyama said that Whis is a 15, Beerus a 10, and SSG Goku a 6, and there is no reason to disregard it in the manga so far. As for Blue Vegetto, he is said to be stronger than Beerus.

There's plenty of reasons to disregard the scale. The fact that it applied to a movie when SSJB wasn't even an idea, is a good reason. Look at it this way, Shin himself only remarks that Vegetto Blue has surpassed Beerus when he's charging his ki for the Final Kamehameha. We know, from that, that no one up to that point had surpassed or even come close in power to Beerus. Merged Zamasu, was never said to be near Beerus. The fact that it took Vegetto to surpass Beerus should show the god scale isn't relevant in the slightest.

The thing is, Goku got a huge increase from his training with Kaio because he still had a lot of room for improvement. By the time Goku left the RoSaT, he had reached his limits, meaning that he can still get stronger, but not at the same speed as before. That's why he didn't spend a full year inside the RoSaT, and that's why he didn't enter inside again. That's also why he is still weaker than Freeza in his base form during BoG. Vegeta directly acknowledges this in the anime, saying that even if they go inside the RoSaT together with Goku, they won't improve that much. And we see this when he enters with Goku for 3 years, they are still weaker than Beerus, even after Vegeta entered inside again. The days that Goku & Vegeta would get x times stronger are long over.

And in the anime, by training in the RoSaT, Vegeta manages to surpass Black, just as he did in the manga. Vegeta makes no remarks about being close to a limit in the manga, much less one he would go onto contradict himself.

I can do the same to support my point, and you have already posted these scans. The problem is, we interpret the same thing differently, but your interpretation is, IMO, wrong because going by your interpretation, Vegeta should be thousands of times stronger than SSB Goku, while he definitely isn't.

I'm glad you turned it around, because it sounded like your comment was going to be a cop-out to me. So using the lead in from your comment, I could say the same. We're never pointed to seeing some "goldy enhanced", or "amped" however you describe it, base and Super Saiyajin forms. Going off your initial part of your comment, we've had plenty of times for Goku & Vegeta to display these, but only Black does it? That seems overly complex for no real reason. As for Vegeta being much stronger than Goku, the most recent chapters have changed my mind as to the kind of training Vegeta did. Though I'll remain steadfast in the resolve that there aren't any weird alternate forms, aside of course from the actual god forms.

Now you're right, we're interrupting things differently. But if your interpretation is more valid, more logically sound as you claim that it is, then you explain it to me. And at that point, if I can remain a (for the lack of a better word) "non-believer" well then it's a testament to my inability to adapt, I suppose. But I trust you'll find given an adequate reason, you'll convince me. In all honesty, this is starting to remind me of Gotenks debates from way back when. (But hey, they changed my mind then.)

Apologies for the time it took to get back to you.

[TAF108]

I, too, had initially believed that Gokū simply did not absorb unto himself the power of Super Saiyajin Red, actually. What changed my mind was a discussion with another user who brought up that Gokū absorbing Red's power was something that Toriyama had intended as part of his story, as he stated in an interview that Gokū would likely no longer use Red due to making its power his own. Of course, he did later reuse the form, though this was quite some time after the interview took place, which was during the time scope of the movie's release, if I remember correctly. Much like SSJ2 and SSJ3 coming back, which Toriyama implied would not happen, the information, even from the mouth of Toriyama, was subject to change.

With 'F' having been directly written from the start by Toriyama and continuing with Gokū (and now Vegeta) not only displaying Red's power without transforming, but evolving their Super Saiyajin form into Blue on top of that. (At least, that's how I personally view the origins of Super Saiyajin Blue.) Of course, this still does not prove in any way that the manga's version of a hypothetical 'F' would follow Toriyama's script to a T, though Toyotarō's tendency not to deviate much (if at all) from Toriyama's outlines/scripts leads me to believe that the manga adaptation would follow the movie's procession very closely, as depicted in the manga adaptation of the movie adaptation, though it has never been confirmed to be part of the Super manga continuity. (I personally include the three-chapter 'F' manga as part of the Super manga's story because I do not have access to Volume 'F' and Toriyama's script within.)

Further discussion with the aforementioned other user led me to believe that, following the defeat of Freeza, Gokū and Vegeta reacquired their old transformations and relative range of power via training and also gained the Red form as a permanent transformation in the process. Admittedly, the manga in no way confirms any of this, and it is all merely speculation based on how I interpret what the manga presents. As always, I could always be mistaken; misinterpreting a Japanese comic book isn't the worst thing that could ever happen to me.

If you have counterpoints to any of the points I've made, I'd be happy to analyze them!

Well I'd say Toyotaro has some decent differentiation from the other two "Super" sources (that being the anime & the movies). If we look at all 3, there are differences among each which I would say are key. Goku maintaining the use of SSJG is a big one, that you mentioned. Him regaining the Kaioken as a means to power up drastically, is another. Freeza gaining a training partner was an interesting change the anime did.

For me, the fact that we can have all these changes across media must mean that I cannot look for one thing in order to explain another. Piccolo V. Frost is a good example. In the anime, they go out of there way to show that Piccolo has no chance against Frost other than the Makankōsappō. While in the manga, he is shown to be able to freely fight against Frost on a physical level without much issue. I find that to be a major difference between the two. Because of that, the fact that Toyo seems to make it clear that Goku is using his Divine Ki in a different manner led to me seeing that it's taking a major leap from what the anime is doing with the same material.

With the way it's described, my own guess would be that Goku & Vegeta trained with Whis to regain the red form. Being that it's the predecessor to Blue as stated in the manga. By working with it, they're able to push it to a form/state that surpasses it, and this gave way to SSJB. I could certainly see why someone could find coherence among the 3, but for me the differences are enough that there could be one as radical as the one I mentioned.

[Zephyr]

Alright, I'll give explaining my position one more shot, and I'll go as in-depth as possible. I'll try not to make this a huge, long, drawn-out back-and-forth. I'm likely to just respond with reiterations of what's already been posted below, so there's no need to bother. If this doesn't work for you, then I can't explain it any more thoroughly and clearly for you to understand. It's out of my hands after this post. Without further ado:

Why is writing my problems with the Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta vs. Super Saiyan 1/2 Black "desperate for something to complain about"?

The reason it appears that way to me is that all of your reasons for having said problems fall flat from my perspective. Let me illustrate my reasoning:

Why should I just assumed Vegeta kept the rage boost from several arcs ago when the manga never claimed he had, rage boosts never worked that way, and no character within the manga even acknowledge this mutated Super Saiyan form?

I'm identifying 3 premises here in support of the conclusion: "It should not be assumed that Vegeta kept the rage boost from several arcs ago". I'll respond to each one as I post them.

Premise #1:

the manga never claimed he had

The manga doesn't need to make a claim for said claim to be true. My already-given example: Vegeta and Bulma having sex. Nobody in the manga, narrator or otherwise, has explicitly confirmed this, but we can still have every reason to believe that it is true. Therefore, something in the manga need not be explicitly confirmed in order for us to reasonably believe that it is true.

Premise #2:

rage boosts never worked that way

Rage boosts don't have to have worked that way before for them to do something different. Things are allowed to happen unexpectedly. Goku having near-death powerups wasn't a thing before the Saiyan arc, but that doesn't mean Toriyama somehow wasn't allowed to introduce that, and change the way "increases in power" worked.

Premise #3:

no character within the manga even acknowledge this mutated Super Saiyan form

This sounds like 50% the same concern that Premise #1 has, and as such, 50% of my response is identical: something doesn't need to be explicitly acknowledged to be true. The other 50% appears to be that "nobody acknowledged this new form". It's not a new form, though. Like you said, nobody acknowledged some "new form". His Super Saiyan 2 is just stronger. The same way that Goku and Vegeta's Super Saiyan 2 in the Buu arc was stronger than Gohan's Super Saiyan 2 at the Cell Games, and the same way that Goku and Gohan's Super Saiyan 1 at the Cell Games was stronger than Goku, Vegeta, and Trunks' Super Saiyan 1 prior to the training in the Room of Spirit and Time.

Is the concern that they didn't acknowledge it this time? Why would they? The other increases in power for forms entailed increases to the biggest and baddest form at the time. When Super Saiyan itself was still the hot new shit, it being made stronger was important enough to be explicitly recognized. When Goku and Vegeta's Super Saiyan 2 was stronger than Gohan's old one, Super Saiyan 2 was still the hot new form, the highest form we knew about, so that it getting stronger was notable.

In Super, Super Saiyan 2 got stronger at a time when it was no longer the hot new shit. God was introduced right after, and Blue soon after that. Nobody cares enough about those lower forms to acknowledge when they got stronger. Imagine during the fight with Kid Buu someone remarking that Goku's Super Saiyan 1 was now strong enough to beat Cell! Someone way weaker than their current threat. That would feel clunky and out of place. You don't need that, as has been painstakingly demonstrated. And in light of that, why would you then want it? It would only make the dialog shittier as a result.

Forms can get stronger. This has been shown. Multiple times. That means it can happen. Things that can happen can happen again. It happened again. That it happened again might not necessarily be a big enough game changer to warrant wasting precious dialog in place of more meaningful character interactions. You've still presented no reason to take issue with this that isn't demonstrably very easily catered to.

So, in my own conclusion, you have yet to present a reason not to assume that Vegeta kept the Battle of Gods rage boost. But in the interest of attempting to adequately respond to further assertions:

saying it was a mutated Super Saiyan 2 feels like reaching since the manga claimed that Vegeta's Super Saiyan 2 was superpower

I don't know what difference Vegeta's Super Saiyan 2 being "superpower" is supposed to make. I'm unfamiliar with the significance the quoted term is supposed to carry. Vegeta got stronger, at this one time. Why should he then become incapable of getting that strong again? There's literal, explicit precedent for it. I don't know why it should be seen as "poor scaling" (which I hope is supposed to translate to "poor writing") when it's already been proven to be possible. Is it because the circumstances are different? He got stronger in a fit of rage, and he later learned how to tap into that rage-induced-power while not-enraged. This is how they can turn Super Saiyan at will in the first place. Why are characters not allowed to do this unless it's explicitly spelled out? There's no reason for only this type of plot device to require explicit confirmation to be intuited. What happened to the old story-telling rule "show, don't tell"? Does that not apply here? Are we not telling a story?

Which apparently is an insult on this thread and I must have an agenda against the manga, so I am using headcanon to discredit Toyo or something.

Given how readily and thoroughly disagreeable your positions seem, even under the most generous of lenses, it feels like you're grasping for straws to bemoan. Making mountains out of molehills. Missing the forest for the trees. Ignoring very simple rebuttals to your positions, that require very minimal outside-the-box critical thinking to recognize as able to easily undermine said positions. Either you took no time to consider different possible concerns, or you have incredibly large blind-spots.

This isn't me going to great lengths to make sense of something strange, outside the norm, or difficult to explain. This is me going to great lengths to explain something that's so intuitively simple and basic that it's puzzling how exactly to succinctly explain it terms you might actually understand.

[HeroR]

I have already said my peace on this subject. People are free to believe whatever they want, but it is logical fallacy to say that Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta vs. Super Saiyan 1/2 Black proves that Vegeta kept the rage boost from several story arcs ago since the story itself doesn't acknowledge it happens and no amount of wall of text is moving me on that. If it that is what happened, cool, but it still makes Toyo a terrible storyteller since he couldn't be bother to say that what happened.

[Basako]

I have already said my peace on this subject. People are free to believe whatever they want, but it is logical fallacy to say that Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta vs. Super Saiyan 1/2 Black proves that Vegeta kept the rage boost from several story arcs ago since the story itself doesn't acknowledge it happens and no amount of wall of text is moving me on that. If it that is what happened, cool, but it still makes Toyo a terrible storyteller since he couldn't be bother to say that what happened.

Nothing moved you to believe he didn't keep it, but, still, in absence of any written line to confirm it, you decided that it had to be it. It looks like you don't need any written line when you want to point out some problem about the manga. Which wouldn't be a problem anyway.

Man, for someone who doesn't like the manga and Toyotaro's storytelling, you are one of the most active users in the thread, if not the most. It looks like a personal crusade against it.

Let me disagree with you, Toyotaro is a great storyteller and ilustrator. His version of the outine he is receiving from Toriyama is awasome, great characterizations, battles and plot development. I really wish the anime had took his work as reference.

This I can't know for sure, but I suspect they are letting him ahead in the US arc and, whatever isn't filler, may have more influence from him than ever before. Which would be great. But this is just my thought, who knows, maybe they are still working directly from Toriyama's outline as before. A 80 participant battle royale is a pretty big challenge to ilustrate, animate or even write, who knows how detailed Toriyama's notes are this time.

[Zephyr]

it is logical fallacy to say that Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta vs. Super Saiyan 1/2 Black proves that Vegeta kept the rage boost from several story arcs ago since the story itself doesn't acknowledge it happen

Again, if this is the hill you're determined to die on, the story also doesn't acknowledge that Bulma and Vegeta have had sex. Guess we're left wondering where Trunks and Bra came from. Akira's such a hack.

And do please actually name the fallacy at play here. I'm interested in whether you have one in mind, or if you're just tossing out a buzzword for a quick and effortless response to my arguments. I'm heavily inclined to believe the latter at this point, but I'd love to be wrong.

no amount of wall of text is moving me on that

So you're adamantly and stubbornly refusing to read or entertain an opposing viewpoint in a discussion thread. Glad you're making your membership here worthwhile!

[Bullza]

How much of what's happened in the Universe Survival saga so far do you think the manga version will skip over?

There's been a lot of episodes involving them putting the team together, it'll be 11 episodes with the next one. Pretty safe to say that the vast majority of that won't be in the manga, there could be maybe just the 1 chapter to cover all that.

But do you think the manga will include the Zen Exhibition matches or will that be skipped over aswell? Unlike the recruitment episodes this felt like it could have been in Toriyama's outline but I suppose the manga could easily skip it.

[Kanassa]

How much of what's happened in the Universe Survival saga so far do you think the manga version will skip over?

There's been a lot of episodes involving them putting the team together, it'll be 11 episodes with the next one. Pretty safe to say that the vast majority of that won't be in the manga, there could be maybe just the 1 chapter to cover all that.

But do you think the manga will include the Zen Exhibition matches or will that be skipped over aswell? Unlike the recruitment episodes this felt like it could have been in Toriyama's outline but I suppose the manga could easily skip it.

I think the Exhibition Match will be changed to be a meeting between the Gods that Goku and Toppo are brought along to, as their fight is the only important thing that happens at that match. And out of the recruitment episodes, I'd say that only Gohan, 17 and Frieza's recruitment will be focused on with everyone else's being narrated to have happened. Though I'm sure the manga will delve into the other universes, especially universe 6 with Caulifla and Kale's transformations.

[LightBing]

How much of what's happened in the Universe Survival saga so far do you think the manga version will skip over?

There's been a lot of episodes involving them putting the team together, it'll be 11 episodes with the next one. Pretty safe to say that the vast majority of that won't be in the manga, there could be maybe just the 1 chapter to cover all that.

But do you think the manga will include the Zen Exhibition matches or will that be skipped over aswell? Unlike the recruitment episodes this felt like it could have been in Toriyama's outline but I suppose the manga could easily skip it.

I dare to say the recruitment phase will be wildly different as in much shorter and without all the battles and fluff. The exception might be Gohan's "reborn", although taking into account Toei's obsession with him, they might be taking a secondary plot point and making a big deal out of it.

The Exhibition matches should be included in one form or another. It seems clearly the preamble to the arc. What I think might happen is that Gohan and Boo don't fight.
Like I said before, Toei has a love affair with Gohan and they might have thrown a bone to Boo(his fans). Mr.Toriyama honestly, I don't see him caring and just ignore Boo from the get go.

Basically the exhibition match would be Goku against Universe's 9 strongest fighter. That's more than enough to introduce Goku as the "villain" and the follow ups we all know about.
Just my wild theory.

[Kanassa]

The exception might be Gohan's "reborn", although taking into account Toei's obsession with him, they might be taking a secondary plot point and making a big deal out of it.

I think Gohan will get much more focus just to re-introduce him due to how little screen time he has before this arc in the manga.

[LightBing]

The exception might be Gohan's "reborn", although taking into account Toei's obsession with him, they might be taking a secondary plot point and making a big deal out of it.

I think Gohan will get much more focus just to re-introduce him due to how little screen time he has before this arc in the manga.

I agree, I just think Toei might have extended that focus beyond Mr.Toriyama possible intentions. He had fight's with Goku and Piccolo and Kuririn, while receiving some focus in almost all of the episodes of this recruitment phase.

I say Toyotarõ gives him the "Future Trunks flashback treatment". Between half a chapter and a whole chapter dedicated to it.

[Basako]

I think the exhibition matches are happening. They serve as introduction of the tournament for the gods and the audience too. A lot of information was told in there.

The danger trio. One fight for Boo, now that we know he is out of the team. One for Gohan, he's been totally absent from the manga. One for Goku, because it's Goku, he is the lead character. Toppo's interaction is pretty important too, that should be.

The recruitment could be much faster, maybe one chapter.

[FortuneSSJ]

-Volume 3 cover-

Looks like Toyotaro is keeping his streak of beautiful covers, but this random drawings that have nothing to do with what's happening in the story don't work for me.
I usually give the first and last volume a free pass, but that's it. I had the same problem with Toriyama. This kind of drawings work better for posters, artbooks and stuff like that.

A book cover should always tell the person what we can expect from it.
Everyone going happily to the beach is the other side of the spectrum of what is actually happening.

On a side note looks like Toyotaro will be following the anime details, and not the original manga:
- Piccolo has 10 fingers instead of 8.
- Toriyama gave blue hair to FT Trunks, so for sake of consistency Toyotaro gave also blue hair to kid Trunks even though both had purple hair in the original manga.

[Gog]

Dragon Ball Super chapter 18 review:

I will admit I am slightly disappointed that the main cast figured out who Goku Black was after one meeting. It could have been an interesting mystery. Toyotaro also proves consistently how he's great at writing gags. Kibito's reaction to being a suspect is great. However, I do dislike how much of an idiot he's portraying Goku as here. It's also incredibly funny that the whole entire arc was the result of a selfish Babarian, and an illegally uploaded video. Supreme Kai, and Kibito being useful in this arc is also great considering they never actually have been useful, and it's nice to see their characters used in a meaningful fashion.

Honestly, I really don't care about Goku never kissing Chi-Chi he never was a romantic person. Another solid chapter from Toyotaro.

[Oracle]

Dat SS Rosé.

[Fearless]

Hey guys, are there any differences or mistakes between Viz and Herms in terms of translation of Super?

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Hey guys, are there any differences or mistakes between Viz and Herms in terms of translation of Super?

The only mistakes I'm aware of from Viz is Vegeta's referring to Goku as "Goku", and the misinterpretation of a pun in one of the filler pages in the first collected volume.

[Chelentano]

Hey guys, are there any differences or mistakes between Viz and Herms in terms of translation of Super?

The only mistakes I'm aware of from Viz is Vegeta's referring to Goku as "Goku", and the misinterpretation of a pun in one of the filler pages in the first collected volume.

Really? What was that misinterpretation?

[Ajay]

Really? What was that misinterpretation?

There's a page with Sorbet on his knees that's supposed to read, "I was skipped!", referring to the manga's lack of a Resurrection F arc. Unfortunately, Viz somehow missed this and translated it very literally as, "I was flown down here!"