Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[TheSaiyanGod]

At the very least them fighting evenly with a comment on how Frieza can maintain his 100% power would be welcome.

Even if they explained that Freeza was not able to show all his power because he had not become accustomed to the golden form, it would not make sense.

Freeza fought with all his power at the beginning of the fight, just could not keep him. As long as Goku tells Freeza '' you NOW have no weaknesses, but soon will have '' meaning he just started to lose energy after.

It would be the same as putting Golden Freeza stronger than Black.
Goku and Vegeta got much stronger

[LowRyder2005]

Calling it! Golden Freeza will overpower SSJB Goku then Goku will use Kaioken and gain the advantage. The explanation (if there is an explanation) will be similar to Manga Super Saiyan Blue, where in his last fight he couldn't use anywhere near his full power but now that he's in a dead body he can stay at 100% power.

Eh, it may be frightening to say, but even this sounds almost too refined for the way Super handles its fights. Freeza will probably exchange blows on somewhat equal terms with Goku, then the fight will be interrupted or Goku will win but with minimum to medium effort.

An outrage then ensues.

Again, why would people get outraged over it? Goku has developed since RoF.

I suppose I was a bit unclear; that wasn't my point. The intended outrage I was referring to in the scenario I pictured would stem from determining whether Freeza was on par with Goku or not ("Freeza got stronger!", "No, Goku held back in the beginning", etc.).

[Bullza]

Even if they explained that Freeza was not able to show all his power because he had not become accustomed to the golden form, it would not make sense.

Freeza fought with all his power at the beginning of the fight, just could not keep him. As long as Goku tells Freeza '' you NOW have no weaknesses, but soon will have '' meaning he just started to lose energy after.

It would be the same as putting Golden Freeza stronger than Black.
Goku and Vegeta got much stronger

Which is why I said at least because Super Saiyan Rose Black before any zenkai boosts appeared to be stronger than Golden Frieza.

Blue Goku and Golden Frieza didn't actually start fighting at 100% until about half way through episode 26 and when they did Goku was able to hold his own at first and get some punches in and hurt him before Frieza got the upper hand and put him down.

After that Goku had about 4 years worth of training and could easily have surpassed Golden Frieza just then but when he fought Rose Black, the three times that he fought him prior to any zenkai boosts he was stomped easily. Intact I'm not sure Goku was even able to land a punch on Black at all until his Rage boost.

So when you then consider that Blue Vegeta put a whooping on an even stronger version of Rose Black than that and Goku is just as strong or maybe even a little stronger actually than that then there should be no comparison between him and Golden Frieza now.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Even if they explained that Freeza was not able to show all his power because he had not become accustomed to the golden form, it would not make sense.

Freeza fought with all his power at the beginning of the fight, just could not keep him. As long as Goku tells Freeza '' you NOW have no weaknesses, but soon will have '' meaning he just started to lose energy after.

It would be the same as putting Golden Freeza stronger than Black.
Goku and Vegeta got much stronger

Which is why I said at least because Super Saiyan Rose Black before any zenkai boosts appeared to be stronger than Golden Frieza.

Blue Goku and Golden Frieza didn't actually start fighting at 100% until about half way through episode 26 and when they did Goku was able to hold his own at first and get some punches in and hurt him before Frieza got the upper hand and put him down.

After that Goku had about 4 years worth of training and could easily have surpassed Golden Frieza just then but when he fought Rose Black, the three times that he fought him prior to any zenkai boosts he was stomped easily. Intact I'm not sure Goku was even able to land a punch on Black at all until his Rage boost.

So when you then consider that Blue Vegeta put a whooping on an even stronger version of Rose Black than that and Goku is just as strong or maybe even a little stronger actually than that then there should be no comparison between him and Golden Frieza now.

In fact, I think in the first fight (in the future), Goku was already superior to Golden Freeza and was not so inferior to Black. After Vegeta is defeated, Goku leaves Black and they are exchanging punches, with no one to hit punches. They were at levels so close that Trunks came to ask, "are they even?

[spoiler][/spoiler]

On EP 57, Goku held Black while Trunks fought Zamasu. Only in the second fight did the difference in power increase. So, if in the first fight, Black and Goku had similar levels (and Black was superior to Freeza), Goku was already superior to Freeza. What do you think?

And according to Black himself, Goku would return even stronger (after having lost the second fight and returned to the past):

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Besides training, he got stronger with the previous battles

[Noah]

So can we expect to see Golden Freeza getting the beating of his life after all the time Goku improved post RoF?

[larzooma]

So can we expect to see Golden Freeza getting the beating of his life after all the time Goku improved post RoF?

Definitely by Goku and Vegeta. I'd wager 17 and Gohan would put him in his place as well. I honestly think that's going to be the motivation for Frieza sticking around after the arc. He will have the same initial motivation as Vegeta, overcome Goku and kill him. Vegeta happened to change along the way. I can't see Frieza dropping the last part of his plan though. Goku would love to let him get stronger too, just to see if he could keep up with him. How they develop his character is a mystery, he could become a reluctant ally or an eventual antagonist.

[Bullza]

So, if in the first fight, Black and Goku had similar levels (and Black was superior to Freeza), Goku was already superior to Freeza. What do you think?

Well Trunks questioned that they were even but Vegeta corrected him by saying he wasn't and then soon enough Goku was knocked to the ground.

I couldn't say for sure if he were stronger than Golden Frieza at that time, he probably was but I wouldn't say there was anything definite about it. He was more powerful than Hit but we don't know if Hit was more powerful than Golden Frieza or not.

He should easily be above him once he snapped though.

So can we expect to see Golden Freeza getting the beating of his life after all the time Goku improved post RoF?

Nah these things rarely seem to go as they should do. That's what should happen in an ideal world but chances are Golden Frieza will be much stronger than he should be.

It honestly wouldn't surprise me if they still made him out to be stronger or something.

[TheSaiyanGod]

So, if in the first fight, Black and Goku had similar levels (and Black was superior to Freeza), Goku was already superior to Freeza. What do you think?

Well Trunks questioned that they were even but Vegeta corrected him by saying he wasn't and then soon enough Goku was knocked to the ground.

I couldn't say for sure if he were stronger than Golden Frieza at that time, he probably was but I wouldn't say there was anything definite about it. He was more powerful than Hit but we don't know if Hit was more powerful than Golden Frieza or not.

He should easily be above him once he snapped though.

Yes, Trunks was just asking a question, but it was just based on what he was seeing.
Looking from afar, the fight seemed to be balanced

[spoiler][/spoiler]

But in an instant Black won the upper hand,precisely because of the sword that cut off Goku's clothes and made him distract

[spoiler][/spoiler]

In episode 57 we still see Goku deflect from the attacks of Zamasu and Black at the same time (the latter attacking in the blind spot of Goku).

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Soon after, we see them exchanging punches.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

In episode 57 we still see Goku deflect from the attacks of Zamasu and Black at the same time (the latter attacking in the blind spot of Goku).
Soon after, we see them exchanging punches.

Anyway, I know that Black hit a few shots, this is just to show that at least in the first fight, the levels were similar. In the second fight for some reason Black was a lot stronger, and if he was that strong in the first fight, Which I said would have happened.

You can not tell if he was superior to Freeza at this moment,but Goku still got much stronger since that fight anyway

[Marlowe89]

So can we expect to see Golden Freeza getting the beating of his life after all the time Goku improved post RoF?

Possibly but not necessarily. Golden Frieza supposedly had only a slight advantage over Goku after deciding to use 100% of his power, but this was after Goku already said that Frieza would soon have a weakness -- for Goku to have realized something like this he would have needed to notice Frieza's power drop beforehand to some degree at least, otherwise his statement would have been little more than a baseless hunch.

Thus, we're never actually given a full picture of the gap between Goku and Frieza. It could have been larger than we were led to believe, or it could have been exactly as small as most of us imagined it to be. I do believe the writers have some logical leeway to go for the former route if they want.

[BlueBasilisk]

Possibly but not necessarily. Golden Frieza supposedly had only a slight advantage over Goku after deciding to use 100% of his power, but this was after Goku already said that Frieza would soon have a weakness -- for Goku to have realized something like this he would have needed to notice Frieza's power drop beforehand to some degree at least, otherwise his statement would have been little more than a baseless hunch.

Thus, we're never actually given a full picture of the gap between Goku and Frieza. It could have been larger than we were led to believe, or it could have been exactly as small as most of us imagined it to be. I do believe the writers have some logical leeway to go for the former route if they want.

In the arc version, Golden Frieza seems to have a significant advantage over Goku and is really putting the hurt on him before his power runs out. Goku didn't notice Frieza's weakness in that version until he saw Frieza breathing hard after a few heavy attacks.

[DBZ Macky]

Freeza might have a significant advantage over Goku, but it sure as hell didn't seem like a 10x gap. Goku beat Hit in his SSB when before he wasn't even able to defeat him with the Kaio-Ken x10. I don't see how Freeza would still be stronger. Sure, he might put up a good fight because of his stamina issues gone and all. But win? Not a chance.

[Bullza]

Well Super Saiyan Blue Goku was able to hold his own and overpower Merged Zamasu.

He should be stronger than Super Saiyan Rose Black at his strongest. He was able to beat Hit with all of his tricks.

I couldn't see Golden Frieza doing anything of the sort. I could see him maybe beating Hit as he was during the Universe 6 Tournament only as long as he didn't use his Time Skip abilities and that's about it.

It's different with the manga I think Golden Frieza could stack up better there. At a constant 100% then he actually could potentially be stronger than Super Saiyan Rose Black and Super Saiyan Blue Goku and Vegeta. Against the complete Super Saiyan Blue Goku and Merged Zamasu he'd likely lose though.

[Abra kadabra]

Well Super Saiyan Blue Goku was able to hold his own and overpower Merged Zamasu.

He should be stronger than Super Saiyan Rose Black at his strongest. He was able to beat Hit with all of his tricks.

I couldn't see Golden Frieza doing anything of the sort. I could see him maybe beating Hit as he was during the Universe 6 Tournament only as long as he didn't use his Time Skip abilities and that's about it.

It's different with the manga I think Golden Frieza could stack up better there. At a constant 100% then he actually could potentially be stronger than Super Saiyan Rose Black and Super Saiyan Blue Goku and Vegeta. Against the complete Super Saiyan Blue Goku and Merged Zamasu he'd likely lose though.

In the anime SSB Goku didn't overpower Merged Zamasu and isn't on his level. If you're talking about the beam struggle, that was right after the father son galick gun and the kamehameha pierced Zamasu attack. Goku wasn't stronger than black

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Well Super Saiyan Blue Goku was able to hold his own and overpower Merged Zamasu.

He should be stronger than Super Saiyan Rose Black at his strongest. He was able to beat Hit with all of his tricks.

I couldn't see Golden Frieza doing anything of the sort. I could see him maybe beating Hit as he was during the Universe 6 Tournament only as long as he didn't use his Time Skip abilities and that's about it.

It's different with the manga I think Golden Frieza could stack up better there. At a constant 100% then he actually could potentially be stronger than Super Saiyan Rose Black and Super Saiyan Blue Goku and Vegeta. Against the complete Super Saiyan Blue Goku and Merged Zamasu he'd likely lose though.

In the anime SSB Goku didn't overpower Merged Zamasu and isn't on his level. If you're talking about the beam struggle, that was right after the father son galick gun and the kamehameha pierced Zamasu attack. Goku wasn't stronger than black

Not to mention that it was a Full-Power Kamehameha, a significantly powered-up version of the standard version that debuted in the video games, that was so powerful that Goku's arms were USELESS afterwards. That's a lot of freaking power being put out in a single attack.

[SaiyanGod117]

Goku should be unquestionably stronger than Frieza, he's trained vigorously and powered up repeatedly since then. Particularly the power-gap between Goku and Golden Frieza in the ROF arc looked to be equivalent to the gap between Goku (without Kaio-Ken) and Vegeta in the Saiyan Saga or Vegeta and Zarbon in the Namek. So clearly more stronger, but not strong enough one shot or land a kill shot when need be. Additionally a long time has past since then, it shouldn't take little to no time for someone like Goku or Vegeta to close such a small gap. This also corresponds with the theme of Dragon Ball; surpassing your previous set limits.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Well Super Saiyan Blue Goku was able to hold his own and overpower Merged Zamasu.

He should be stronger than Super Saiyan Rose Black at his strongest. He was able to beat Hit with all of his tricks.

I couldn't see Golden Frieza doing anything of the sort. I could see him maybe beating Hit as he was during the Universe 6 Tournament only as long as he didn't use his Time Skip abilities and that's about it.

It's different with the manga I think Golden Frieza could stack up better there. At a constant 100% then he actually could potentially be stronger than Super Saiyan Rose Black and Super Saiyan Blue Goku and Vegeta. Against the complete Super Saiyan Blue Goku and Merged Zamasu he'd likely lose though.

Even in the manga, Goku, Black and Vegeta are currently more powerful than Freeza.

Goku and Vegeta in the manga also trained 3 years in the RoSaT (and unlike the anime, Vegeta does not say in any moment that its powers would not increase so much, nor exists this scene in the manga).
After Black suffered Zenkai, the same was superior to Vegeta SSB ONLY in the form of regular SSJ. Upon transforming into SSJ Rosé (a form equivalent to SSB) his power increased absurdly, defeating Vegeta with few blows.

After training again in RoSaT, Vegeta only in SSG was able to hold Black SSJ Rosé. Using the SSB he was superior.
I do not see how Freeza in the manga can be so superior to Goku, the difference is very great (there is an abyss between the transformation of SSJ and SSJ Rosé / SSB)

Goku was able to fight Merged Zamasu after mastering the SSB, it would be much higher

Well Super Saiyan Blue Goku was able to hold his own and overpower Merged Zamasu.

He should be stronger than Super Saiyan Rose Black at his strongest. He was able to beat Hit with all of his tricks.

I couldn't see Golden Frieza doing anything of the sort. I could see him maybe beating Hit as he was during the Universe 6 Tournament only as long as he didn't use his Time Skip abilities and that's about it.

It's different with the manga I think Golden Frieza could stack up better there. At a constant 100% then he actually could potentially be stronger than Super Saiyan Rose Black and Super Saiyan Blue Goku and Vegeta. Against the complete Super Saiyan Blue Goku and Merged Zamasu he'd likely lose though.

In the anime SSB Goku didn't overpower Merged Zamasu and isn't on his level. If you're talking about the beam struggle, that was right after the father son galick gun and the kamehameha pierced Zamasu attack. Goku wasn't stronger than black

The Father Son Galick Gun had no effect on Zamasu.
Even after losing the power struggle, he was neither panting nor scratched.
Only after Goku's Kamehameha did he get injured.
Even breaking both arms, this is a great feat. It would not have like Black to do this. Goku basically surpassed the power of Black + Zamasu.
I do not doubt that Vegeta could do the same if he used all his power

I would not be surprised if Goku was as strong as Black at that moment.

[Bullza]

After training again in RoSaT, Vegeta only in SSG was able to hold Black SSJ Rosé. Using the SSB he was superior.
I do not see how Freeza in the manga can be so superior to Goku, the difference is very great (there is an abyss between the transformation of SSJ and SSJ Rosé / SSB)

Vegeta likely didn't get any stronger in the Rosat. He came out no stronger than what Goku was and he didn't do any training at all and it's not as though Goku was particularly stronger than him before Vegeta started training either.

He just learnt the trick to switch between forms fast is all. He never really fought him using the SSJG form, he only attacked and moved using the Blue forms power.

Super Saiyan Rose Black shouldn't be significantly stronger than either of them. He lies in between their usual Blue power and 100% of their Blue power.

That could still be true for Golden Frieza.

[TheSaiyanGod]

After training again in RoSaT, Vegeta only in SSG was able to hold Black SSJ Rosé. Using the SSB he was superior.
I do not see how Freeza in the manga can be so superior to Goku, the difference is very great (there is an abyss between the transformation of SSJ and SSJ Rosé / SSB)

Vegeta likely didn't get any stronger in the Rosat. He came out no stronger than what Goku was and he didn't do any training at all and it's not as though Goku was particularly stronger than him before Vegeta started training either.

He just learnt the trick to switch between forms fast is all. He never really fought him using the SSJG form, he only attacked and moved using the Blue forms power.

Super Saiyan Rose Black shouldn't be significantly stronger than either of them. He lies in between their usual Blue power and 100% of their Blue power.

That could still be true for Golden Frieza.

I do not know if you can post these images here, so if you can not I'll delete them later.

Vegeta got stronger after entering RoSaT, yes.
In his first onslaught, after turning into SSG, Black already noticed that his speed had suddenly increased.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

After he punches Black several times, he wonders how Vegeta was able to take so much power out of that body.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Even though he was turning into SSB in small moments, that would be nothing to Black, who was beating Vegeta SSB, only with SSJ.
If Black was only beating Vegeta SSB with SSJ, then when turning into SSJ Rosé he was much stronger than Frieza.
There is an abyss between SSJ and SSB, Freeza was not as strong as Goku or Vegeta.

They still have the possibility that they have outgrown Freeza just by training 3 years in RoSaT (I think it's probably because they did not say they could not get stronger)

[Marlowe89]

Even though he was turning into SSB in small moments, that would be nothing to Black, who was beating Vegeta SSB, only with SSJ.

Except Goku made it clear that Vegeta's strategy of going Super Saiyan Blue in short bursts allowed him to use its maximum power output, which certainly wouldn't have been mentioned if Vegeta could already consistently utilize Blue's maximum power prior to his training in the RoSaT. Super Saiyan Black was "beating" Vegeta simply because Vegeta couldn't maintain Blue's power well enough, not necessarily because Black was stronger than Super Saiyan Blue in that form -- and as Zamasu himself pointed out, Rose's signature pink hair was the color Black's Super Saiyan form took only after he powered up to the point of surpassing Super Saiyan God.

Black mentioning that Vegeta's speed and power had skyrocketed was nothing more than a reference to Vegeta's trick, since Black himself was unaware of what that tactic involved at the time. Vegeta probably became at least somewhat stronger from his RoSaT training, but I doubt it was some hugely dramatic increase.

[ZombieVito]

Freeza might have a significant advantage over Goku, but it sure as hell didn't seem like a 10x gap. Goku beat Hit in his SSB when before he wasn't even able to defeat him with the Kaio-Ken x10. I don't see how Freeza would still be stronger. Sure, he might put up a good fight because of his stamina issues gone and all. But win? Not a chance.

Keep in mind that Goku used KKx10 for a very short while. Even with regular Kaioken Goku almost one shotted Hit in episode 40.

I agree that Freeza should be able to hold is own against Goku for a little while at least. Goku is not dozens of times stronger than his RoF self.