Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[TheSaiyanGod]

Even though he was turning into SSB in small moments, that would be nothing to Black, who was beating Vegeta SSB, only with SSJ.

Except Goku made it clear that Vegeta's strategy of going Super Saiyan Blue in short bursts allowed him to use its maximum power output, which certainly wouldn't have been mentioned if Vegeta could already consistently utilize Blue's maximum power prior to his training in the RoSaT. Super Saiyan Black was "beating" Vegeta simply because Vegeta couldn't maintain Blue's power well enough, not necessarily because Black was stronger than Super Saiyan Blue in that form -- and as Zamasu himself pointed out, Rose's signature pink hair was the color Black's Super Saiyan form took only after he powered up to the point of surpassing Super Saiyan God.

Black mentioning that Vegeta's speed and power had skyrocketed was nothing more than a reference to Vegeta's trick, since Black himself was unaware of what that tactic involved at the time. Vegeta probably became at least somewhat stronger from his RoSaT training, but I doubt it was some hugely dramatic increase.

Vegeta even after eating a Senzu (having his power restored) was to face Black and could not do anything, he was still at little disadvantage. If Vegeta indeed had so worn out like this, before Zamasu appeared, he could already hold Vegeta right ?
It is made clear that Black got stronger after Zenkai. In the form of SSJ Rosé he defeated Vegeta with few strokes. Goku had several Senzu, if that was enough, he would have given Vegeta more. So for Vegeta to be able to face Black after training on RoSaT, his power must have increased absurdly. He got much stronger

Freeza might have a significant advantage over Goku, but it sure as hell didn't seem like a 10x gap. Goku beat Hit in his SSB when before he wasn't even able to defeat him with the Kaio-Ken x10. I don't see how Freeza would still be stronger. Sure, he might put up a good fight because of his stamina issues gone and all. But win? Not a chance.

Keep in mind that Goku used KKx10 for a very short while. Even with regular Kaioken Goku almost one shotted Hit in episode 40.

I agree that Freeza should be able to hold is own against Goku for a little while at least. Goku is not dozens of times stronger than his RoF self.

He was only killed with a blow because it was in the heart. Goku said that Hitto's Tokitobashi would no longer work. But in the tournament, it worked even with the Kaioken x10. So Goku got stronger than his tournament version

[Marlowe89]

Vegeta even after eating a Senzu (having his power restored) was to face Black and could not do anything, he was still at little disadvantage. If Vegeta indeed had so worn out like this, before Zamasu appeared, he could already hold Vegeta right ?

Senzu beans don't magically allow their users to obtain mastery over a power they're incapable of controlling well. Vegeta was never mentioned at any point to have become absurdly stronger after his RoSaT training, but he was mentioned to have gained the ability to maximize the power he already had - thus the logical conclusion is NOT that Vegeta's full power increased drastically, but that he's now capable of drawing out that full power in short bursts. That's exactly what Goku said and therefore that's the whole narrative point.

Black did get stronger after his zenkai boost, but he wasn't mentioned to have surpassed Super Saiyan God until after powering up to the extent that his hair turned pink in Super Saiyan. His boost pre-Rose didn't necessarily surpass Vegeta at full power, it just allowed him to fight at an advantage against a Vegeta who couldn't control his strength.

[BWri]

Episode 89 makes it seem like he's almost that weak if he's been chasing his Buu saga PL this whole time. The clear statements from Piccolo and Gohan in 89 emphatically state that yes, Gohan is trying to get his previous power back. The problem is eps 21 and 22 show us that he surpassed Ultimate already, so in all likelihood, Toei goofed on his level of power in RoF. If you need an in-universe reason, either Piccolo was talking about Ultimate Form in episode 89 or Gohan was flat out wrong in episode 21 and 22 when it came to assessing Tagoma's power and thusly his own.

There's quite a handful of statements and situations, actually.

* People feel like Majin Buu is their best bet to take out Freeza's army when Gohan's around even before they discover Gohan has not been training. This may suggest Mr. Buu was already the top dog on Earth, bar Goku and Vegeta.

Sorry, I'm late to the party with my response here. I'd agree here, but I think the earthlings suggesting Buu was more based on his reputation than anything. If I remember right, it was Roshi who asked about Buu not Piccolo who knew about Gohan's Ultimate power.

* Gohan has reportedly not trained around the time ROF takes place. We'd be advocating he became, say, ten times stronger in base form. Although I guess you may argue that he trained a lot after the Buu saga and until BOG? Still seems extremely out of character, all the more so after his current character arc in Super.

Oh no, not at all. I always thought a Gohan power decrease was bound to happen due to his lifestyle. I just didn't think they'd make it as drastic as they did in RoF. When that first happened, I couldn't believe it since it was the first time someone in Z lost THAT much power from laziness.

* Gotenks feels Tagoma's ki, says it's pretty big and wants to check it out, but when he gets there and knocks out Tagoma he doesn't give him one second glance and focuses on First Form Freeza. This may either be Gotenks acting reckless or feeling that Tagoma, while notable, wasn't much of a challenge in the first place.

Oh yeah, good point. He wasn't really fazed by Tagoma and right after that he defused. To be fair though, Tagoma had an iron body, not iron balls.

* SS Kid Trunks' power (which is handwaved to be inferior to Base Future Trunks', who is about even with Base Goku) was strong enough to be the equivalent of SS Gohan's signal to Goku. I don't think we can give a conclusion on which of the two kiais was stronger, but this alone very clearly establishes that SS Kid Trunks of all people was factually stronger than base Gohan, while the both of them were obviously inferior to base Goku and base Future Trunks. Trunks are Goten are also implied to be weaker than Piccolo in the U6 Arc, since according to Vegeta they are too puny to enter the tournament when unfused.

Yeah, I agree with all that fully, but in retrospect its still weird considering Piccolo was there and apparently stronger than both SSJ Trunks and Base Gohan.

* Gohan says Piccolo "had been retraining him from scratch" when Goku interrupts, suggesting he's still in the process of getting back in shape.

That's the only way I can see these episodes making sense, otherwise Piccolo has been failing to train Gohan for over a year and only now with 20 or so hours to train he pushes him past Ultimate. I think he was working on getting his body in shape first then helping him push past those mental blocks.

* Trunks says that he doesn't feel "the same brimming power" from base Gohan when he sees him. Assuming the untransformed Saiyans were weaker than Piccolo at the end of the Buu Saga, he'd actually be feeling the power of a Gohan who is over ten times stronger. I know some people argue that he was referring to SS2 Gohan, but Trunks did also interact with base Cell Games Gohan afterwards.

This one I'm not too sure about, but the most likely scenario would be that he was referring to base since Gohan was at rest.

* Goku actually says that considering "Gohan's original power" he "should've fought better" than the way he fought against Lavender. Goku should reasonably know that Super Saiyan is not the Ultimate form. Super Saiyan Gohan should therefore be inferior to Ultimate Gohan power-wise.

Yeah, I noticed that and felt it was a strange direction to go in considering what was said in RoF. It felt a bit inconsistent at the time, since we were shown multiple times that Gohan was training with Piccolo. For the 8 months leading up to the U6 Tournament and afterwards during the Trunks saga, we were teased with the Bang when he showed up again with Piccolo. I'm convinced that all that previous building of Gohan was a Toei only thing and that the true building (the stuff from Toriyama's script) came with episode 88. But I reconcile all that by saying Piccolo's intention was to initially train Gohan's body to handle the increased power and finally to train his mind to unlock it again.

* Piccolo fights Super Saiyan Gohan and says that Gohan "can't even evoke his original power" after his poor showing against an undeterred Piccolo. Technically it's only much after that he states "you possessed another form above Super Saiyan, didn't you". The scene does apparently imply that even his Super Saiyan form is underwhelming.

Piccolo was owning him handily with the weights on, but this is also a Piccolo who's been training rigorously since RoF. Because of Piccolo's increase, I just think that it's Gohan who's weak or rather he's chasing his old strength while Piccolo has grown. I think the form itself is as strong as its ever been (well, nowadays its as strong as the writers need it to be).

EDIT: After reading the play-by-play commentary (pretty terrific job, at least in helping someone who didn't want to go through the episodes again),

I do the shitty jobs so no one else has to

yeah, I don't think the episode looks even remotely convincing anymore in establishing that Gohan was "stronger than ever" or "stronger than Piccolo". Freeza telling us Gohan could've wiped his army by himself is basically irrelevant since every other fighter (bar maybe Roshi?) could've done it as well if they, apparently, had not minded knocking them out without killing them; Tagoma saying Gohan was the strongest guy was based off an estimation. And, by playing devil's advocate, we could also argue that Piccolo could have used extreme weights and that he was more tired than Gohan. He doesn't take the Senzu until after he gets smacked around. But anyway, both Piccolo and base Gohan have basically the same feat of doing squat against Tagoma and the former most certainly didn't have the chance to fight seriously.

What protects this fight from being 100% incongruent with what we see in Ep. 88 is the fact that Piccolo wore his weights throughout the entire fight, so there's enough wiggle room to say that either Piccolo or Gohan were superior here. I do believe that RoF SSJ Gohan was completely superior to RoF Piccolo, weighted or not. I can play devil's advocate (why not, it helps with my enjoyment of Super), but common sense tells me that Piccolo would have ditched the weights if it were that much of a hindrance, though he was attacking like he knew he could win. My real guess is that Weighted Piccolo (Ep 88) >>>> SSJ Gohan (Ep 88) >> SSJ Gohan (RoF) >> Tagoma >> Piccolo w/o weights (RoF) > Base Gohan (RoF) > Weighted Piccolo (RoF). I just think Piccolo made them gains just like he used to in Z.

The only thing I feel like disagreeing with is that Gohan technically says Tagoma might be "hiding power at least on par with (his) own". Personally speaking, I'm still inclined to believe he was not counting his Ultimate form back there; the vibe I had from the episodes was that he had discounted his Ultimate form pretty quickly and then made a "nothing to lose" try against Tagoma because he - quite literally - has nothing more to lose at that point.

But when he says "his own" I wonder what he is referring to. The CR sub had the line where he said Tagoma had power comparable to him at his best. I can only take that to mean what it literally means, because he didn't offer any caveats and Gohan's best at that point in history was Ultimate. At this point I stick with CR subs so I don't get too confused by all the different translations.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Vegeta even after eating a Senzu (having his power restored) was to face Black and could not do anything, he was still at little disadvantage. If Vegeta indeed had so worn out like this, before Zamasu appeared, he could already hold Vegeta right ?

Senzu beans don't magically allow their users to obtain mastery over a power they're incapable of controlling well. Vegeta was never mentioned at any point to have become absurdly stronger after his RoSaT training, but he was mentioned to have gained the ability to maximize the power he already had - thus the logical conclusion is NOT that Vegeta's full power increased drastically, but that he's now capable of drawing out that full power in short bursts. That's exactly what Goku said and therefore that's the whole narrative point.

Black did get stronger after his zenkai boost, but he wasn't mentioned to have surpassed Super Saiyan God until after powering up to the extent that his hair turned pink in Super Saiyan. His boost pre-Rose didn't necessarily surpass Vegeta at full power, it just allowed him to fight at an advantage against a Vegeta who couldn't control his strength.

Maximizing Blue's power to use it in short bursts for a few seconds did not leave Vegeta stronger than before, he did save energy with it (since keeping on SSB would consistently be much less durable).

Vegeta SSB while eating a Senzu had all his power restored. That is, he could fight in full power for a while, but even so he was at a disadvantage (the only reason Goku gave Vegeta a Senzu was for him to suffer a Zenkai and get stronger, but this did not happen)

Black SSJ himself said something like: '' Vegeta, you're at a perfect level to make me stronger ''

[spoiler][/spoiler]

If in Chapter 19, Black could not do anything against Vegeta (even the Saiyajin keeping on SSB constantly), how can he do it now?

After Black turns into SSJ Rosé, Goku still asks Vegeta if he wants him to get into the fight.
Two Saiyans were transformed into SSB, and even then Black would deal with both (Goku had not fought, had not spent energy).

It need not be said that Vegeta got stronger, that was clear.
Black himself says that, for Vegeta's sake, he should have grown stronger (just because Vegeta was inferior).
Black noticed Vegeta's speed increase in the first thrust.
What did not happen in the first fight, in which even Vegeta SSB with full power lost to Black SSJ

[Marlowe89]

Maximizing Blue's power to use it in short bursts for a few seconds did not leave Vegeta stronger than before, he did save energy with it (since keeping on SSB would consistently be much less durable).

It absolutely did leave Vegeta stronger than before because that's literally what the phrase means in its own context. Goku wouldn't have mentioned that Vegeta just now figured out how to maximize his power if he could already do that prior to the RoSaT.

There's not even an ounce of a hint that Vegeta became significantly stronger from his training - the benefit was merely his newfound ability to conserve and use Blue's full power just as Goku said. Moreover, Black wasn't said to have surpassed God/Blue until transforming into Rose. Black's zenkai boost in Super Saiyan was just big enough to allow him to take advantage of Vegeta's rapidly declining power in Blue which the Senzu bean barely helped; after his training, Vegeta didn't have that problem anymore so he was now strong enough to knock Black around pretty freely even in Rose. It's as simple as that.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Maximizing Blue's power to use it in short bursts for a few seconds did not leave Vegeta stronger than before, he did save energy with it (since keeping on SSB would consistently be much less durable).

It absolutely did leave Vegeta stronger than before because that's literally what the phrase means in its own context. Goku wouldn't have mentioned that Vegeta just now figured out how to maximize his power if he could already do that prior to the RoSaT.

There's not even an ounce of a hint that Vegeta became significantly stronger from his training - the benefit was merely his newfound ability to conserve and use Blue's full power just as Goku said. Moreover, Black wasn't said to have surpassed God/Blue until transforming into Rose. Black's first boost in Super Saiyan was just big enough to allow him to take advantage of Vegeta's rapidly declining power in the form which the Senzu bean barely helped; after his training, Vegeta didn't have that problem anymore so he was able to knock Black around pretty freely even in Rose. It's as simple as that.

Was it said that Black was superior in the form of SSJ Rosé?
No, Vegeta still wanted to fight him by himself, but that does not mean he was not superior.
Black SSJ was clearly dominating Vegeta.

Goku says Vegeta was retaining the Blue power, and releasing for a single instant at a time. So he saves energy, and still manages to use the Blue form at full power, that's all. Was he told he got stronger at this? No

Goku still claims that this is the SAME strategy he used against Hit. But in the tournament, he could only use SSB once.
Goku got stronger in the tournament just for being the SSB for a moment? No, he just spared energy, and Vegeta was doing the same.

When Vegeta ate Senzu, he was in full power again, but that was not enough. It only starts to lose power after using the SSB for a while,it is not instantaneous (and even if it was a matter of seconds, Vegeta after being Recover still failed to defeat Black quickly).

Vegeta got much stronger. He went to RoSaT for this, and was still able to use the SSB more than once.
Even Goku says he trained a lot to be able to do that.

He would not be able to surprise or even touch Black if he had not increased his power

[Marlowe89]

Goku says Vegeta was retaining the Blue power, and releasing for a single instant at a time. So he saves energy, and still manages to use the Blue form at full power, that's all.

That's not all, you're just blatantly leaving out the important parts of Goku's explanation. He flat-out said that Vegeta couldn't maintain his power in Blue before his training, and he also flat-out said that Vegeta is now able to maximize it.

This isn't hard to understand at all. The one and ONLY reason that was given for Vegeta's disadvantage against Black was his rapidly declining strength that he couldn't maintain. That's it. You keep insisting that it was only a matter of conserving energy despite it being stated repeatedly in the chapter that Vegeta's new trick had everything to do with his power. His maximum strength didn't increase substantially or anything like that, he just gained the ability to access it.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Goku says Vegeta was retaining the Blue power, and releasing for a single instant at a time. So he saves energy, and still manages to use the Blue form at full power, that's all.

That's not all, you're just blatantly leaving out the important parts of Goku's explanation. He flat-out said that Vegeta couldn't maintain his power in Blue before his training, and he also flat-out said that Vegeta is now able to maximize it.

This isn't hard to understand at all. The one and ONLY reason that was given for Vegeta's disadvantage against Black was his rapidly declining strength that he couldn't maintain. That's it. You keep insisting that it was only a matter of conserving energy despite it being stated repeatedly in the chapter that Vegeta's new trick had everything to do with his power. His maximum strength didn't increase substantially or anything like that, he just gained the ability to access it.

In the translation that appears on Viz's website, does Goku really talk about '' maximizing '' the Blue power?

Anyway, he says it's THE SAME strategy he used against Hit. And Goku did not have to train for it.
He kept the Blue power to use it at the last moment, in the final attack, to be able to use all his power. This would only make him able to use all the power of the SSB without getting worn out (since, as I said, it is Just in an instant.) How would Vegeta get stronger by using this strategy?

Ignoring that Black SSJ was defeating a fully recovered Vegeta after eating Senzu, and that Goku wanted to fight TOGETHER of Vegeta when Black became SSJ Rosé, is to ignore that Vegeta got stronger after training in RoSaT.
In the first attack that Black SSJ hit Vegeta SSB, they noticed at the time that it was stronger.

This is clear in the manga, I do not know why trying to get so many explanations for something so obvious.

[Marlowe89]

How would Vegeta get stronger by using this strategy?

Because he can now use Blue's maximized power at any moment by keeping it turned off and then switching in and out of it instantaneously, exactly as Goku said. He couldn't do this at all before his training and the longer he remained in Blue, the more his power dropped. Prior to his RoSaT training he pretty much had near-zero access to Blue's full power, which as we've recently discovered is even capable of harming Merged Zamasu if one can remain in it for an extended period of time.

Ignoring that Black SSJ was defeating a fully recovered Vegeta after eating Senzu

I'm not ignoring that, you're ignoring what Senzu beans even do. They're just a restoration item, they're not going to magically prevent Vegeta's power from dropping off again right from the moment he consumes them.

This is clear in the manga

What's clear in the manga is that 100% Super Saiyan Blue is dramatically more powerful than the standard version of Super Saiyan Blue. In the most recent chapter, Vegeta outright says that Blue's greatest weakness is that it can only output full power for a very fleeting period of time and then goes on to state that Goku figured out how to use that full power constantly and has now perfected the form. Vegeta's answer to this weakness was to transform into a Super Saiyan God and only use Blue in short bursts during attacks so that its power wouldn't decrease, whereas Goku's answer involved absorbing its leaking power into his body which allowed him to remain in it and use it at all times, even with basic movement and speed, which eventually allowed him to land a hit on Merged Zamasu showcasing exactly why Goku's answer was superior to Vegeta's. That's precisely why Vegeta wanted Trunks to heal Goku instead.

What's clear in the manga is that everything in the paragraph above was the O-N-L-Y thing that was ever attributed to Vegeta's newfound strength advantage against Black in Super Saiyan Rose. It was never stated, suggested or remotely hinted that Vegeta's full strength became drastically higher after his training, but it was stated that Vegeta learned how to use the maximum power output Blue was capable of dishing out. That's what Toyotaro intended to convey, that's what the chapter conveys, and that's what the majority of readers got out of it. It's really no more complicated than that.

Therefore, Super Saiyan Black (and Super Saiyan Rose Black, for that matter) was always weaker than 100% Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta. The fact that Goku didn't train much at all and is obviously blatantly superior to Rose Black while in 100% Blue is even more confirmation.

[TAF108]

Actually, I'm starting to think Freeza being comparable to current Goku isn't to far off.

I think it might be the movie's influence that gives way to the idea that Freeza was only a bit stronger. In the anime, Freeza has all those statements about not wanting to accidentally kill Goku, and Goku agreed to a lot of them. So even pre stamina drain, Freeza was limiting himself in an attempt not to kill Goku accidentally and still had the edge.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

[spoiler][/spoiler]

So it might not be to wild to think Freeza could've actually been much, much stronger than Goku. On a side note, anyone else think Goku's "recruitment" of Freeza might end up just being Goku getting a rematch with Freeza, agreeing to his terms (being brought back to life, maybe?) and then, just before they go, Boo wakes up. And we get to see how much stronger he's gotten, rather than that being a wasted plot point.

As far as Caulifla being stronger than Cabba, I think his reaction might indicate that he's stronger but doesn't want to tell her that due to her personality. But she could very easily be stronger. I'd say in this scenario we probably need a feat, rather than statements. Though, Kale is probably stronger than both, I'd wager.

[Bullza]

Actually, I'm starting to think Freeza being comparable to current Goku isn't to far off.

I think it might be the movie's influence that gives way to the idea that Freeza was only a bit stronger. In the anime, Freeza has all those statements about not wanting to accidentally kill Goku, and Goku agreed to a lot of them. So even pre stamina drain, Freeza was limiting himself in an attempt not to kill Goku accidentally and still had the edge.[/i]

But Goku was also holding back at the time too. That was also where it was different from the movie because Goku was using his full power from the start in that version.

In Super though it was only after Goku mentioned that Frieza's stamina issue would be effecting him soon did he power up to full and Frieza said that if he had that much power then he should have used it from the start. Frieza then powered up fully as well.

So I'd say the best comparison to make is to watch from that point on when they both fought at full power. Frieza was still stronger but Goku was able to fight back and he was able to hit him and hurt him.

Goku performed much worse against Black though even though he'd done the three years training in the Rosat.

[Marlowe89]

In Super though it was only after Goku mentioned that Frieza's stamina issue would be effecting him soon did he power up to full and Frieza said that if he had that much power then he should have used it from the start. Frieza then powered up fully as well.

I still think Goku's awareness that Golden Frieza would soon have a weakness indicates that Frieza must have lost a bit of power at that point, otherwise he simply wouldn't have noticed it. The form's power hadn't reduced enough that Goku would consider it a weakness, but perhaps Frieza wasn't necessarily at 100% then either. If it was anything like the manga's version of Super Saiyan Blue, it might have dropped off almost immediately after Frieza triggered the form.

[TAF108]

But Goku was also holding back at the time too. That was also where it was different from the movie because Goku was using his full power from the start in that version.

In Super though it was only after Goku mentioned that Frieza's stamina issue would be effecting him soon did he power up to full and Frieza said that if he had that much power then he should have used it from the start. Frieza then powered up fully as well.

So I'd say the best comparison to make is to watch from that point on when they both fought at full power. Frieza was still stronger but Goku was able to fight back and he was able to hit him and hurt him.

Goku performed much worse against Black though even though he'd done the three years training in the Rosat.

Could you give me the exact statement where Goku said he was holding back? Because I don't remember it. I do remember a handful of statements from Freeza bout him not wanting to end it quickly, his stamina drain only became a problem because he didn't take the fight seriously from the get go.

As the guy above mentioned, if Goku had noticed Freeza's stamina drain, he would've already lost power at that point, no? From what I recall Freeza doing his damnedest to not accidentally kill Goku still had a notable edge.

Goku did pretty well against Black during their initial scuffle, he probably would've had a better chance were it not for Mirai Zamasu. The only time I could think of Goku just getting wrecked by Black would be in round two. Though, I don't think I'm saying Freeza's stronger than Black here. Just that it's possible that Freeza could end up being comparable to Goku despite all of Goku's training. (The only real time I see Goku getting any true gains is the Goku Black Arc, Vegeta said the 3 years of training wouldn't be fruitful. But Black was kind enough to note they kept getting stronger. Which lead to Goku being able to take Hit without Kaioken.)

[Bullza]

Could you give me the exact statement where Goku said he was holding back? Because I don't remember it. I do remember a handful of statements from Freeza bout him not wanting to end it quickly, his stamina drain only became a problem because he didn't take the fight seriously from the get go.

Yeah this is from Episode 26. It's after they discuss Frieza's weakness and how it'll be effecting him soon. Goku starts to power up...

Frieza - "If you've got power like that you should have started with it."

Goku - "I'm gonna hit ya with everything I got!"

Frieza - "Very well. Then I'll use everything I have to beat you to a pulp. This time I promise I'll kill you."

And then Golden Frieza powers up..

Goku - "You really are something."

Then once they actually start fighting again there's a comment from those watching...

Krillin - "Both Goku and Frieza still had that kind of power hidden?!"

So neither of them were apparently fighting at full power prior to this scene.

As the guy above mentioned, if Goku had noticed Freeza's stamina drain, he would've already lost power at that point, no? From what I recall Freeza doing his damnedest to not accidentally kill Goku still had a notable edge.

Possibly but when Frieza questions what his weakness was, Goku says this

"Ya sure don't have one now, but it'll be clear in a bit."

Which may imply that he hadn't lost any power yet. It's true Goku did notice but maybe there was more to it and could sense his body couldn't maintain it and it would drop rather than him feeling it drop.

Or even if it did drop it would have dropped off from when Frieza wasn't using his full power and his full power surpassed what he started out using.

Goku did pretty well against Black during their initial scuffle, he probably would've had a better chance were it not for Mirai Zamasu. The only time I could think of Goku just getting wrecked by Black would be in round two.

I know that he fought him three times prior to when he had his Rage moment. He fought him in Episodes 56, 57 and 61 and I can't remember if in those three fights Goku was able to hit him at all.

He was able to hit Golden Frieza at full power and he was able to hurt him but I don't know if that happened against Black in any of the three fights. Likewise he was able to have the upper hand against Hit when he wasn't​ using his Time Skip powers.

[TheSaiyanGod]

How would Vegeta get stronger by using this strategy?

Because he can now use Blue's maximized power at any moment by keeping it turned off and then switching in and out of it instantaneously, exactly as Goku said. He couldn't do this at all before his training and the longer he remained in Blue, the more his power dropped. Prior to his RoSaT training he pretty much had near-zero access to Blue's full power, which as we've recently discovered is even capable of harming Merged Zamasu if one can remain in it for an extended period of time.

Ignoring that Black SSJ was defeating a fully recovered Vegeta after eating Senzu

I'm not ignoring that, you're ignoring what Senzu beans even do. They're just a restoration item, they're not going to magically prevent Vegeta's power from dropping off again right from the moment he consumes them.

This is clear in the manga

What's clear in the manga is that 100% Super Saiyan Blue is dramatically more powerful than the standard version of Super Saiyan Blue. In the most recent chapter, Vegeta outright says that Blue's greatest weakness is that it can only output full power for a very fleeting period of time and then goes on to state that Goku figured out how to use that full power constantly and has now perfected the form. Vegeta's answer to this weakness was to transform into a Super Saiyan God and only use Blue in short bursts during attacks so that its power wouldn't decrease, whereas Goku's answer involved absorbing its leaking power into his body which allowed him to remain in it and use it at all times, even with basic movement and speed, which eventually allowed him to land a hit on Merged Zamasu showcasing exactly why Goku's answer was superior to Vegeta's. That's precisely why Vegeta wanted Trunks to heal Goku instead.

What's clear in the manga is that everything in the paragraph above was the O-N-L-Y thing that was ever attributed to Vegeta's newfound strength advantage against Black in Super Saiyan Rose. It was never stated, suggested or remotely hinted that Vegeta's full strength became drastically higher after his training, but it was stated that Vegeta learned how to use the maximum power output Blue was capable of dishing out. That's what Toyotaro intended to convey, that's what the chapter conveys, and that's what the majority of readers got out of it. It's really no more complicated than that.

Therefore, Super Saiyan Black (and Super Saiyan Rose Black, for that matter) was always weaker than 100% Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta. The fact that Goku didn't train much at all and is obviously blatantly superior to Rose Black while in 100% Blue is even more confirmation.

You dont answer my question...
In the translation on the Viz website, is it said something like '' maximize ''?

Because otherwise, you have nothing to prove that Vegeta got stronger by using this strategy.
He could do this before training on RoSaT, yes. Goku did this against Hit, the ONLY DIFFERENCE is that Vegeta did this constantly, without losing power (when SSB is activated more than once, the user gets 10% power) .

Activating the SSB for seconds just to attack and defend does not empower anyone. That's what Goku did against Hit and did not get stronger.

Goku's "perfect SSB" is different.
He really mastered the transformation, eliminating the waste of energy, controlling all overflowing Ki into the body.

Vegeta only bypassed the weakness of the Blue form by using it for a few seconds, but she still wasted a lot of energy.

Need to be told that Vegeta got stronger after training at RoSaT?
Does it need to be said that Black SSJ Rosé is stronger than Black SSJ?

Black SSJ dominated Vegeta SSB, that's fact. Vegeta was not injured, he recovered with Senzu and was in full power. No need to look for explanations, vegeta could not do anything in Black after Zenkai.

In the second fight Vegeta only activated SSB quickly, but it has no difference what Goku did against Hit

But Goku was also holding back at the time too. That was also where it was different from the movie because Goku was using his full power from the start in that version.

In Super though it was only after Goku mentioned that Frieza's stamina issue would be effecting him soon did he power up to full and Frieza said that if he had that much power then he should have used it from the start. Frieza then powered up fully as well.

So I'd say the best comparison to make is to watch from that point on when they both fought at full power. Frieza was still stronger but Goku was able to fight back and he was able to hit him and hurt him.

Goku performed much worse against Black though even though he'd done the three years training in the Rosat.

Could you give me the exact statement where Goku said he was holding back? Because I don't remember it. I do remember a handful of statements from Freeza bout him not wanting to end it quickly, his stamina drain only became a problem because he didn't take the fight seriously from the get go.

As the guy above mentioned, if Goku had noticed Freeza's stamina drain, he would've already lost power at that point, no? From what I recall Freeza doing his damnedest to not accidentally kill Goku still had a notable edge.

Goku did pretty well against Black during their initial scuffle, he probably would've had a better chance were it not for Mirai Zamasu. The only time I could think of Goku just getting wrecked by Black would be in round two. Though, I don't think I'm saying Freeza's stronger than Black here. Just that it's possible that Freeza could end up being comparable to Goku despite all of Goku's training. (The only real time I see Goku getting any true gains is the Goku Black Arc, Vegeta said the 3 years of training wouldn't be fruitful. But Black was kind enough to note they kept getting stronger. Which lead to Goku being able to take Hit without Kaioken.)

Goku was hiding his power, and only fought seriously at the end (even being inferior)

[spoiler][/spoiler]

I think they got considerably stronger after getting into RoSaT, yes
Vegeta himself says that they are improving, with a face of happiness (as if he did not expect this growth)

[spoiler][/spoiler]

About his last comment, Freeza thought he could kill Goku with a blow, but he could not even turn off his SSB transformation.
We watched Goku react in the fight in a few moments, and cause damage to Freeza. He was not so inferior.

With training in RoSaT, the fights against Black and Zamasu, and the time that has passed, they are much stronger than Golden Freeza

[TAF108]

I know that he fought him three times prior to when he had his Rage moment. He fought him in Episodes 56, 57 and 61 and I can't remember if in those three fights Goku was able to hit him at all.

He was able to hit Golden Frieza at full power and he was able to hurt him but I don't know if that happened against Black in any of the three fights. Likewise he was able to have the upper hand against Hit when he wasn't​ using his Time Skip powers.

Goku is only shown clashing with Black during round from what I recall, I'm sure he got at least a few hits off considering Trunks did. (PIS aside.) The second fight, he might not have aside from his rage boost (because every one gets them), 3rd fight I'm pretty sure he focused on Zamasu while Vegeta fought Black. Now I'm kind of iffy on what happened during the arc. Heh. But I can't really think of a time where it seemed like Goku stood no chance at all.

I suppose that's possible. I'm certainly not going to rewatch the arc to reconfirm. I dunno, Freeza's dialogue about him sounding so sure makes it sound like the difference is greater than the film portrayed. But I suppose it was just him being egotistical.

[TAF108]

Goku was hiding his power, and only fought seriously at the end (even being inferior)

[spoiler][/spoiler]

I think they got considerably stronger after getting into RoSaT, yes
Vegeta himself says that they are improving, with a face of happiness (as if he did not expect this growth)

[spoiler][/spoiler]

About his last comment, Freeza thought he could kill Goku with a blow, but he could not even turn off his SSB transformation.
We watched Goku react in the fight in a few moments, and cause damage to Freeza. He was not so inferior.

With training in RoSaT, the fights against Black and Zamasu, and the time that has passed, they are much stronger than Golden Freeza

I think that they should be stronger, but based on Toei's past occurrences I don't think it's unlikely that they'll make Golden Freeza a match for Goku. I saw the dialogue of Freeza considering that could be a viable explanation for why. Otherwise it'll just be weird considering Freeza has to be the same strength he was during the RoF arc.

[Marlowe89]

In the translation on the Viz website, is it said something like '' maximize ''?

It doesn't need to, the gist is exactly the same in both translations: Vegeta couldn't maintain his power in Blue before and now he can. That's why he was losing to Black prior to his training. When Trunks asked Goku how Vegeta's able to beat Black now, that was the explanation given. Nobody said he became dozens of times stronger so it's nothing more than pure conjecture on your part.

The burden of proof is entirely on you and so far you've failed at every possible turn to substantiate your claim.

Goku's "perfect SSB" is different.

That's not really my point. Vegeta described it as Super Saiyan Blue operating at 100% power, so if you acknowledge that Goku didn't train all that much compared to Vegeta and you also acknowledge Goku was still able to go toe-to-toe with Merged Zamasu using Blue's full strength, the only possible conclusion remaining is that Vegeta wasn't using anywhere near 100% of Blue's power against Black pre-RoSaT. That's all there is to it.

Vegeta only bypassed the weakness of the Blue form by using it for a few seconds, but she still wasted a lot of energy.

No he didn't. Goku already mentioned that Vegeta's power wasn't dropping off at all anymore.

You're also making a ton of assumptions here. Vegeta's short bursts of Blue were supposed to be near-instantaneous, so how do you know he wasn't doing it in a matter of milliseconds? What makes you think he was wasting much (if any) power when the switching was so fast that not even Black noticed it at first? The whole idea behind Vegeta's tactic was going Blue, attacking Black, then quickly reverting back to God before his power could deteriorate.

No need to look for explanations

I'm not postulating any explanation other than the one given in the manga, you are.

[Bullza]

Aside from just Golden Frieza, Final Form Frieza should be SSJG level himself.

It'd be interesting to see if he fights anybody using that form. I don't know if it's a rumour or a fact that he's going to fight Frost but that should give us an idea of where Frost stands at least.

[TheSaiyanGod]

In the translation on the Viz website, is it said something like '' maximize ''?

It doesn't need to, the gist is exactly the same in both translations: Vegeta couldn't maintain his power in Blue before and now he can. That's why he was losing to Black prior to his training. When Trunks asked Goku how Vegeta's able to beat Black now, that was the explanation given. Nobody said he became dozens of times stronger so it's nothing more than pure conjecture on your part.

The burden of proof is entirely on you and so far you've failed at every possible turn to substantiate your claim.

Goku's "perfect SSB" is different.

That's not really my point. Vegeta described it as Super Saiyan Blue operating at 100% power, so if you acknowledge that Goku didn't train all that much compared to Vegeta and you also acknowledge Goku was still able to go toe-to-toe with Merged Zamasu using Blue's full strength, the only possible conclusion remaining is that Vegeta wasn't using anywhere near 100% of Blue's power against Black pre-RoSaT. That's all there is to it.

Vegeta only bypassed the weakness of the Blue form by using it for a few seconds, but she still wasted a lot of energy.

No he didn't. Goku already mentioned that Vegeta's power wasn't dropping off at all anymore.

You're also making a ton of assumptions here. Vegeta's short bursts of Blue were supposed to be near-instantaneous, so how do you know he wasn't doing it in a matter of milliseconds? What makes you think he was wasting much (if any) power when the switching was so fast that not even Black noticed it at first? The whole idea behind Vegeta's tactic was going Blue, attacking Black, then quickly reverting back to God before his power could deteriorate.

No need to look for explanations

I'm not postulating any explanation other than the one given in the manga, you are.

Vegeta just managed to turn into SSB more than once because he trained a LOT (Goku's words) for that ..
Before, he could only use the Blue once (if not, it would happen the same as happened to Hit). But now he is able to use the SSB multiple times, in small bursts of power.
He is not stronger than before because of it, he is only able to use the form several times.

He CONTINUES to spend the same amount of energy he spent in the first fight (Goku himself says SSB still could not be kept for long).
So the only difference here is that it can change several times
Goku also says it's the same strategy he used against Hit (using SSB at the last moment) but Vegeta could turn around multiple times, and he did not.

He stayed 1 year inside the RoSaT, but I do not know what his basis was for saying that '' Vegeta got a little stronger just '' being that it was never said

It would not only help him get stronger as he would have to use SSB to defeat him and keep up the form constantly would make him not reach his goal. That's why he was able to save as much energy as possible.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Black himself asks how he could pull so much power out of this body, defending Vegeta's attacks with difficulty.

Showing that before, Vegeta was not strong enough to surprise him, that's all.