Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[BlueBasilisk]

Aside from just Golden Frieza, Final Form Frieza should be SSJG level himself.

It'd be interesting to see if he fights anybody using that form. I don't know if it's a rumour or a fact that he's going to fight Frost but that should give us an idea of where Frost stands at least.

He actually seems to be stronger than that. Goku was a lot stronger after his training with Whis, but he says he wasn't going to be able to put Frieza away without transforming like he thought we would. I don't think he was very much stronger than Goku at the time though.

[Bullza]

He actually seems to be stronger than that. Goku was a lot stronger after his training with Whis, but he says he wasn't going to be able to put Frieza away without transforming like he thought we would. I don't think he was very much stronger than Goku at the time though.

Well if Super Saiyan God's power ranged from that time Goku first transformed into it all the way until his Saiyan Beyond God strength when he fought Frieza then I'd say that Frieza fit somewhere in there.

Probably the higher end though. Maybe he could beat Super Saiyan God as he was against Beerus but was a little below Goku when he fought him.

Frost shouldn't be a match for him at all going by the Universe 6 saga but they did say he improved.

[Marlowe89]

He is not stronger than before because of it

He's stronger in the sense that he can use Blue's full strength (or something closer to Blue's full strength) for attacks now. MS's translation says he's able to maximize his power while Viz's translation says it allows him to release an "explosion of power". Both translations explicitly imply that he's able to output a higher level of power than before thanks to his new strategy. Again, that's the whole point of him switching back and forth between Blue and God -- the fruits of Vegeta's labor is his ability to re-enter Blue multiple times in a row which allows him to switch in and out of it instantaneously so that he can maintain its actual power level instead of some deteriorated version of it, not some dramatically higher power level that was never once hinted at or suggested at any point ever. I don't know why you're having trouble grasping this concept, but it's explained very eloquently in the chapter and makes perfect sense.

Then there's everything else in the most recent chapters that all prove the exact same thing, and since you didn't address any of those I'm just going to take that as a concession on your part.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

He is not stronger than before because of it

He's stronger in the sense that he can use Blue's full strength (or something closer to Blue's full strength) for attacks now. MS's translation says he's able to maximize his power while Viz's translation says it allows him to release an "explosion of power". Both translations explicitly imply that he's able to output a higher level of power than before thanks to his new strategy. Again, that's the whole point of him switching back and forth between Blue and God -- the fruits of Vegeta's labor is his ability to re-enter Blue multiple times in a row which allows him to switch in and out of it instantaneously so that he can maintain its actual power level instead of some deteriorated version of it, not some dramatically higher power level that was never once hinted at or suggested at any point ever. I don't know why you're having trouble grasping this concept, but it's explained very eloquently in the chapter and makes perfect sense.

Then there's everything else in the most recent chapters that all prove the exact same thing, and since you didn't address any of those I'm just going to take that as a concession on your part.

To add to your explanation, we can use examples like 100% Final Form Freeza back on Namek and Golden Freeza, which is the same basic weakness as SSB in the manga (not that I'm happy about this).

Both instances of the character could output huge amounts of power, (THEIR POWER IS MAXIMUM!) but only in the initial bursts before they start losing it due to stamina loss and/or Ki leakage. Vegeta's and Goku's latest methods were used to get around this disadvantage of the form, Vegeta by not letting SSB run its course via constantly using SSG to supplement it, and Goku by preventing his Ki from leaking out (hey, wait a minute, didn't Whis already teach the two of them that in the anime?).

[BlueBasilisk]

and Goku by preventing his Ki from leaking out (hey, wait a minute, didn't Whis already teach the two of them that in the anime?).

He did, but as far as I can tell it's not something they've ever done while Blue.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

and Goku by preventing his Ki from leaking out (hey, wait a minute, didn't Whis already teach the two of them that in the anime?).

He did, but as far as I can tell it's not something they've ever done while Blue.

The context is a little different for the anime. It's never said to have the same "leaking Ki all over the place oh SSG it's everywhere!" weakness like the manga. Far from it, it's made out to be the perfect form, with huge strength and great Ki control that allows Goku to consistently use Kaio-ken with it.

In fact, that same sequence where Whis teaches Goku and Vegeta to not let their Ki leak out is what directly leads to their training that presumably allowed them to figure out how to transform into the SSB form. I already made a thread on this, but basically, I think that not letting their Ki leak out as a SS is what allows them to become SSB. That, and possessing the power of SSG in all their regular forms already.

"Controlling their godly power without changing form, then transforming into Super Saiyans to ascend beyond the realm of gods."

[TheSaiyanGod]

He is not stronger than before because of it

He's stronger in the sense that he can use Blue's full strength (or something closer to Blue's full strength) for attacks now. MS's translation says he's able to maximize his power while Viz's translation says it allows him to release an "explosion of power". Both translations explicitly imply that he's able to output a higher level of power than before thanks to his new strategy. Again, that's the whole point of him switching back and forth between Blue and God -- the fruits of Vegeta's labor is his ability to re-enter Blue multiple times in a row which allows him to switch in and out of it instantaneously so that he can maintain its actual power level instead of some deteriorated version of it, not some dramatically higher power level that was never once hinted at or suggested at any point ever. I don't know why you're having trouble grasping this concept, but it's explained very eloquently in the chapter and makes perfect sense.

Then there's everything else in the most recent chapters that all prove the exact same thing, and since you didn't address any of those I'm just going to take that as a concession on your part.

The Blue transformation itself is already referred to as a "big explosion of power." It was not Vegeta's strategy that changed that. This does not imply that he is stronger with this strategy. You're saying as if the SSB transformation wasting the user Instantly. It takes a while for the user to lose power, and the goku proves this by saying that it just can not be maintained for long. If that were so, Vegeta would not have used SSB against Black SSJ since only in SSJ2 he already Defeated his enemy. If he were to wear out so fast, he would not even use it. But it still took time for Vegeta himself to beat Black and almost kill him. Vegeta, anyway, eating Senzu was able to use all the SSB's power. New, even for FEW INSTANTS, and even then he could not do anything against Black

[Marlowe89]

This does not imply that he is stronger with this strategy.

That's exactly what it implies because Goku was specifically referring to Vegeta's strategy when he said that it lets him release an explosion of power. That's just basic English. He wouldn't mention any of that if Vegeta could already do it pre-RoSaT.

You're saying as if the SSB transformation wasting the user Instantly.

It does start to drop off almost immediately. That's why Vegeta only enters Blue for a few milliseconds and then instantly switches back to God after hitting Black with its power. That's why Goku, using 100% of Blue's strength, can go toe-to-toe with Merged Zamasu. That's why the Senzu made absolutely no difference when Vegeta consumed it.

I really don't know what to tell you at this point. Trunks wanted to know how Vegeta is able to beat Black now and Goku immediately answers that query with "Blue's power can't be maintained and Vegeta found a way to overcome that weakness". All you're doing here is ignoring the answer that was given and adding on an answer that was never stated or implied.

[Lord Beerus]

Episode 93 Notes:
- Goku says that if/when Freeza betrays them, he and Vegeta can just beat him. (Guess this means Goku and Vegeta are stronger than Freeza)
- SSJ Cabba fights Kale while she is in her pseudo LSSJ form and, while Cabba put up a bit of a fight, LSSJ(?) Kale still easily beats him around like nothing.
- SSJ2(?) Caulifla swats away an attack from LSSJ(?) Kale that seemed as though it was going to do some major damage to Cabba.

[Bullza]

New episode.

Apparently there are mortals (that are going to be in the Tournament?) who are as strong as God's of Destruction. Goku isn't as strong as one so does that mean there will be more characters than Jiren who are above current SSJB Goku?

There's Gods of Destruction that are physically stronger than Beerus.

Caulifla is a Super Saiyan 2 now, already.

Kale is a Legendary Super Saiyan. Stronger than Super Saiyan Cabba but at the same time she hit him quite solidly and he stayed conscious unlike when SSJB Vegeta hit him lightly in the stomach and knocked him out so Kale doesn't seem to Blue level yet anyway.

Frieza said he was going to get stronger, no idea how considering he's already unlocked his potential and there's only 90 minutes to go before the tournament.

There was no fight between Goku and Frieza this week, that looks like it's next week so the possible headache is delayed for now but like Lord Beerus said above it was noted that both Goku and Vegeta could just beat Frieza, it's more notable that it was said about Vegeta because he doesn't have Kaioken.

[Booze Sama]

I actually don't think U7 is going to win after Whis's statement. I also believe U9 will be eliminated before the event, possibly U4 aswell.

[TheSaiyanGod]

I still have not seen the episode, but will Goku and Freeza actually fight in the next episode? Apparently, they will have characters that level a Hakaishin. Somehow, they will need to face him, so I believe that either Vou and Vegeta have levels very close to Beerus (it was never said to the contrary, they will be much stronger and in the manga, Zamasu says that Goku and Vegeta have a fighting level Next to the gods of destruction, before fighting Black) or else they will show something new in the tournament.

Or the Hakaishins of these universes in question are not as strong as Beerus. Either way, they'll find a way around it. I believe that in previous Freeza is transforming to face the assassins

[Simere]

We can finally dispense with the absurd notion that GoDs are inherently untouchable. It feels good.

[Lord Frieza]

As it stands U7's victory dose not seem like a shore win anymore. Whis's made it clear their are people out their as powerful as some Gods of Destruction (possibly more so), Jiren likely being one of them.

While we dont have hard facts yet, Beerus himself is not the strongest of his kind. If Sidra takes part in the assassination attempt on Frieza we will likely get a good measuring point to work with as he is likely the weakest or will say his level in comparison to the others. I'm also going to speculate that Quitela is weaker then Beerus to give his dislike for the cat god.

[MagmonKai]

I didn't buy that all the Gods of Destruction were equal. I think they had really high power, but I WAS convinced that were supposed to be the strongest in their respective universes. This is good news in a way. It leaves the possibility open that Goku should in theory surpass Beerus. Also, I wonder would this being be in the Top 5? Why wasn't Goku super excited about this new revelation!

[Zamasu55]

Even though Kale beat Cabbe, it wasn't a stomp like SsjB Vegeta did.
I can assume Lssj Kale is weaker than Gohan and 17. Actually, I think this is sure.

[Lord Frieza]

I didn't buy that all the Gods of Destruction were equal. I think they had really high power, but I WAS convinced that were supposed to be the strongest in their respective universes. This is good news in a way. It leaves the possibility open that Goku should in theory surpass Beerus. Also, I wonder would this being be in the Top 5? Why wasn't Goku super excited about this new revelation!

He's got enough on his plate right now and has to focus...But you can bet he's not going to forget that info in a hurry.

[Bullza]

We can finally dispense with the absurd notion that GoDs are inherently untouchable. It feels good.

Considering the fight that Super Saiyan God Goku put up. That he was powerful enough that towards the end Beerus could no longer negate his energy attacks and Beerus actually telling Goku that for a brief moment he regretted seeking out Super Saiyan God then I think it'd be pushing it if the Gods of Destruction were still made out to be untouchable.

At least in the manga we got the implication that Super Saiyan Blue Vegito was stronger than Beerus.

I'd say its about time that by the end of this saga some of top tier mortals like Goku and Jiren and maybe a couple others were at that level.

Then the saga after this could have one of the four remaining God's of Destruction be the next villain for them to overcome.

[TheSaiyanGod]

We can finally dispense with the absurd notion that GoDs are inherently untouchable. It feels good.

Considering the fight that Super Saiyan God Goku put up. That he was powerful enough that towards the end Beerus could no longer negate his energy attacks and Beerus actually telling Goku that for a brief moment he regretted seeking out Super Saiyan God then I think it'd be pushing it if the Gods of Destruction were still made out to be untouchable.

At least in the manga we got the implication that Super Saiyan Blue Vegito was stronger than Beerus.

I'd say its about time that by the end of this saga some of top tier mortals like Goku and Jiren and maybe a couple others were at that level.

Then the saga after this could have one of the four remaining God's of Destruction be the next villain for them to overcome.

Goku SSG could already make Beerus use a considerable amount of power, calling the Saiyajin even splendid. Not to mention that he countered very powerful attacks of beerus (hundreds of spheres with the power to destroy a planet). Goku has been MUCH stronger since this fight, including using the Kaioken.
I do not remember being told in this Saga that Goku and Vegeta were so inferior. Anyway, I believe that Whis talking about Hakaishin-level warriors is not by chance. In the manga, Zamasu also says (before confronting Black) that Goku and Vegeta were level next to a Hakaishin, they were much more Strong in this Saga. I think they're not so far from them

[Vados_chan]

Even though Kale beat Cabbe, it wasn't a stomp like SsjB Vegeta did.
I can assume Lssj Kale is weaker than Gohan and 17. Actually, I think this is sure.

She's going to be stronger by the time the tournament starts.