Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[DBZ Macky]

Wait, Freeza got stronger?
Goku said that in the position of Freeza, he could not make agreements, but Freeza says that he can get even stronger and he is transformed.
Then he says that Goku is curious about his evolution.

Did he really get stronger? Because after that Goku this was his weak point, I did not understand.

Seemed to me that he was referring to his potential. He could still get much, much more stronger by training for a few more months. And if he was to actually train with a sparring partner this time, he'd be able to give even Kaio-Ken x10 Goku a run for his money. Goku getting excited about the idea was his weakness, and Freeza would try to convince him to let him live by taking advantage of this weakness.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Wait, Freeza got stronger?
Goku said that in the position of Freeza, he could not make agreements, but Freeza says that he can get even stronger and he is transformed.
Then he says that Goku is curious about his evolution.

Did he really get stronger? After that, Goku says that was his weak point.
I do not understand

Yes, that's why I said that a character stronger than a Hakaishin is not currently so absurd. We saw how various gods were surprised just by the SSB in the tournament display. And for Goku and Vegeta to settle down, even after Whis's statement, I think they hide something to face it

I think Beerus is far and away more powerful than Goku and Vegeta still, considering they're typical reaction to angering him. Sure he has the Hakai, but I think it's more than the one ability. Whis may have been talking about one of the 4 universes excluded form the tournament.

Neither Goku nor Vegeta was surprised to learn that there is a universe in which a mortal is more powerful than a Hakaishinn.

I believe they are hiding something, or they are stronger than we imagine.
Vegeta trained on RoSaT, Goku apparently has a new transformation (maybe Vegeta too), so I do not think they're far from Beerus, but we're not sure.

In the manga, Zamasu says that Goku and Vegeta (in the Champa tournament) had a level approaching the Hakaishins.
After that, Vegeta trained in the RoSaT and Goku dominated the SSB, staying on the level of Gattai Zamasu.
They sure are pretty close in the manga too.

Goku and Freeza's exchange was about the fact that Freeza could still get much stronger and give Goku a good fight if he were to be revived, a fact which Goku highlights, since he knows Freeza's trying to sucker him in by using his love of fighting strong opponents. Before Goku went to Hell to recruit Freeza, he reassured Vegeta by telling him that either one of them could beat Freeza if the guy started causing trouble.

We know that Goku has gotten stronger since he first turned into a SSG, even managing to use the regular Kaio-ken with SSB in short bursts. I'd say that a x10 or x20 Kaio-ken would land Goku at the level of a God of Destruction currently.

[Booze Sama]

Any theories as to who might be this so called mortal stronger than Gods of Destruction?
I think Jiren is too obvious which is why its not him

This is actually a pretty good point, however given the context why would wiss mention him if he is not participating anyways? Gokus original question was if U7 is sure to win
But then again i was expecting a reaction from everybody freaking out about this super strong character, which makes me think you might be right about that

I'm betting it is Jiren and they're referring to Bermoud being stronger than Beerus.

Yeah, I'm thinking Whis was referring to Vermoud and Jiren too, as obvious as it seems.
Does defeating him in an arm-wrestling match actually make him stronger? I think he might be stronger, but not by a large amount. Enough to be "stronger" than Beerus yet less "troublesome"

Other than that, it mostly felt like a throw-away line, kind of like the one where they said the Great Priest was one of the top 5 strongest guys, only for the other 4 guys to never be mentioned.

Well Whis said it in correlation to Goku's question, so that universe must be competing at the ToP.

[TheSaiyanGod]

It really does make sense. Thanks to DBZ Macky and PerhapsTheOtherOne

So did Freeza use Goku's love for fights to make him accept his terms?
Stating that it could get even stronger, and give fight to the Saiyan?
That makes their conversation a lot more interesting to me, I like that.

[Lord Beerus]

It really does make sense. Thanks to DBZ Macky and PerhapsTheOtherOne

So did Freeza use Goku's love for fights to make him accept his terms?
Stating that it could get even stronger, and give fight to the Saiyan?
That makes their conversation a lot more interesting to me, I like that.

Yeah, Freeza basically baited Goku into agreeing to his terms by exploiting Goku's fatal character flaw of desiring for strong opponent to fight and train with, and drawing out all their potential. The exchange between Goku and Freeza was masterfully handled in the latest episode.

[SansrivaaL]

It really does make sense. Thanks to DBZ Macky and PerhapsTheOtherOne

So did Freeza use Goku's love for fights to make him accept his terms?
Stating that it could get even stronger, and give fight to the Saiyan?
That makes their conversation a lot more interesting to me, I like that.

Yeah, Freeza basically baited Goku into agreeing to his terms by exploiting Goku's fatal character flaw of desiring for strong opponent to fight and train with, and drawing out all their potential. The exchange between Goku and Freeza was masterfully handled in the latest episode.

It was way on point to their character that its scary... to the point where I think Toriyama gave every detail of Goku and Freeza's interaction, down to the words exchanged and expressions.

[buutenks]

Whis was 100% talking the 8 universes participating in the tourney. Since Goku specifically asked about their chance in the ToP.

So Jiren is the mortal no GoD can defeat and the clown GoD is the one who beat Beerus in an armwrestling match.

[Lord Beerus]

It really does make sense. Thanks to DBZ Macky and PerhapsTheOtherOne

So did Freeza use Goku's love for fights to make him accept his terms?
Stating that it could get even stronger, and give fight to the Saiyan?
That makes their conversation a lot more interesting to me, I like that.

Yeah, Freeza basically baited Goku into agreeing to his terms by exploiting Goku's fatal character flaw of desiring for strong opponent to fight and train with, and drawing out all their potential. The exchange between Goku and Freeza was masterfully handled in the latest episode.

It was way on point to their character that its scary... to the point where I think Toriyama gave every detail of Goku and Freeza's interaction, down to the words exchanged and expressions.

I think some credit has to be given to Toei's writing staff and series director(s) for that one. I mean, I love Ressurection F, but Toriyama horribly botched Freeza's return given the circumstances.

[ChiefWamsutta]

So ... does this Dragon Ball Super version of the Legendary Super Saiyan transformation power up the Saiyan to just under Super Saiyan 2 levels (assuming a constant Base power level)? Like, if Kale and Caulifla's Base power levels were equal do people think Caulifa's SS2 form is stronger than Kale's LSS form?

Also, it seems Goku and Vegeta are still stronger than Frieza based on the dialogue at the beginning of the episode. There is also a random mortal out there who is stronger than a God of Destruction ... hmmmmm.

There's no question they're "still stronger". Unless the writers really take some liberties with Frieza, he hasn't gained any power since going back to Hell, while Goku and Vegeta have made considerable gains. They could both defeat him with relative ease at this point, and as I've argued before, so could Gohan and 17.

Oh, I know Vegeta and Goku should be massively stronger. They should be able to waste Frieza. I am just worried that the writers might make him on par with Goku in their fight. That would be bullshiy and ruin things. I was saying I am glad that they acknowledged Goku and Vegeta should still be stronger by saying the two of them could kill him if he betrays them.

Also, what do you think about the LSS comparison to SS2. If Kale and Caulifla's Base powers were hypothetically equal would the LSS transformation result in higher power level than an SS2 transformation?

[dbgtFO]

It was way on point to their character that its scary... to the point where I think Toriyama gave every detail of Goku and Freeza's interaction, down to the words exchanged and expressions.

I think so too, especially considering Toriyama's love for Freeza and how he went out of his way to write all the dialogue of RoF, because only he knew how to write Freeza, it makes sense he would be very particular about another Freeza comeback.

[Bullza]

Wait so now we r using manga scaling? Why is that when all this stuff is happening in the anime.

Anyways u6 arc base Goku>characters in the buu saga(except maybe Vegetto), since base Cabba is equal to u6 arc base Vegeta means Lssj Kale and ssj1 and 2 Caulifla stomp Buu saga characters.

Stop placing buu saga strength on a pedestal, it has long been surpassed by u7 and u6 saiyans.

No that can't be true. Super Saiyan 2 Gohan in this saga is inferior to his Ultimate Gohan strength from the Buu saga.

Super Saiyan 2 Goku is a match for that so he also isn't at the level of Ultimate Gohan in the Buu saga. Obviously in Base form he'd be 1/100th of that strength.

Krillin can put up a fight against Base Gohan. Roshi can put up a fight against Base Goku.

Good Buu is still a significant power house as he was said to be much stronger than a powered up Basil and Basil is one of the three strongest beings from Universe 9. Gohan had a tougher time with Lavender who was likely of comparable strength to Basil.

In the manga Goku only said that Trunks was stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Teen Gohan after having fought him for a bit. So if Base Trunks isn't stronger than Cell Saga characters then Base Cabba certainly isn't stronger than Buu saga characters.

Piccolo was able to fight on par with Frost. The Base Saiyans were weaker than Frost hence the need to transform so Base Goku, Vegeta, Cabba and Trunks would be weaker than Piccolo as they always were.

[buutenks]

Wait so now we r using manga scaling? Why is that when all this stuff is happening in the anime.

Anyways u6 arc base Goku>characters in the buu saga(except maybe Vegetto), since base Cabba is equal to u6 arc base Vegeta means Lssj Kale and ssj1 and 2 Caulifla stomp Buu saga characters.

Stop placing buu saga strength on a pedestal, it has long been surpassed by u7 and u6 saiyans.

No that can't be true. Super Saiyan 2 Gohan in this saga is inferior to his Ultimate Gohan strength from the Buu saga.

Super Saiyan 2 Goku is a match for that so he also isn't at the level of Ultimate Gohan in the Buu saga. Obviously in Base form he'd be 1/100th of that strength.

Krillin can put up a fight against Base Gohan. Roshi can put up a fight against Base Goku.

Good Buu is still a significant power house as he was said to be much stronger than a powered up Basil and Basil is one of the three strongest beings from Universe 9. Gohan had a tougher time with Lavender who was likely of comparable strength to Basil.

In the manga Goku only said that Trunks was stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Teen Gohan after having fought him for a bit. So if Base Trunks isn't stronger than Cell Saga characters then Base Cabba certainly isn't stronger than Buu saga characters.

Piccolo was able to fight on par with Frost. The Base Saiyans were weaker than Frost hence the need to transform so Base Goku, Vegeta, Cabba and Trunks would be weaker than Piccolo as they always were.

base goku fought freeza, copy base vegeta destroyed ssj3 gotenks, base goku fought beerus, base goku fought improved mr buu, ssj goku fought toppo for a bit and he didnt got finger flicked, ssj2 goku fought a much much stronger ultimate gohan and also deflected one of piccolo's strongest attacks in base form in ep 90, and this piccolo is tronger than the one ssj2 gohan faced.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Keeru with his transformation of SSJ Berseker did not seem much stronger than Caulifla SSJ2. Kyabe managed to even change some punches with Keeru, even being defeated later. And Caulifla SSJ2 countered his energy attack as well

[Bullza]

base goku fought freeza, copy base vegeta destroyed ssj3 gotenks, base goku fought beerus, base goku fought improved mr buu, ssj goku fought toppo for a bit and he didnt got finger flicked, ssj2 goku fought a much much stronger ultimate gohan and also deflected one of piccolo's strongest attacks in base form in ep 90, and this piccolo is tronger than the one ssj2 gohan faced.

From the looks of it it was Saiyan Beyond God Goku who fought Frieza, Gotenks and Beerus. He's not as strong as that normally.

Gohan even as a Super Saiyan 2 was weaker than he previously was in his Ultimate form in Z. Super Saiyan Gohan recently fought Super Saiyan Goku evenly so if Goku and Gohan are equal in the same form then Goku wouldn't be close to being as strong as Ultimate Gohan as Z even as a Super Saiyan 3.

Neither Toppo or Gohan were giving it their all until Goku turned Blue.

Like I said Gohan didn't finger flick Krillin and Goku didn't finger flick Krillin or Roshi.

Krillin was shown to be a decent match for Basil. Lavender and Bergamo are likely within the same range of power as Basil and Gohan and Goku were only slightly superior to them.

[Marlowe89]

I want to point out that finger-flicking (or something like it) almost never happens in Super even when fans speculate that it should, so we can't just say "Oh, character X didn't get finger-flicked so he's obviously closer to character Y". The writers don't analyze the power scale to the extent that they would have this occur for every instance of a wide gap between two characters. There was an enormous power discrepancy between Super Saiyan Trunks and Super Saiyan Rose Black and Trunks obviously wasn't getting finger-flicked, and there's also a bunch of other examples similar to that, so it's not really a valid way of measuring anything at all.

[LowRyder2005]

Wait so now we r using manga scaling? Why is that when all this stuff is happening in the anime.

Anyways u6 arc base Goku>characters in the buu saga(except maybe Vegetto), since base Cabba is equal to u6 arc base Vegeta means Lssj Kale and ssj1 and 2 Caulifla stomp Buu saga characters.

Stop placing buu saga strength on a pedestal, it has long been surpassed by u7 and u6 saiyans.

No that can't be true. Super Saiyan 2 Gohan in this saga is inferior to his Ultimate Gohan strength from the Buu saga.

Super Saiyan 2 Goku is a match for that so he also isn't at the level of Ultimate Gohan in the Buu saga. Obviously in Base form he'd be 1/100th of that strength.

Krillin can put up a fight against Base Gohan. Roshi can put up a fight against Base Goku.

Good Buu is still a significant power house as he was said to be much stronger than a powered up Basil and Basil is one of the three strongest beings from Universe 9. Gohan had a tougher time with Lavender who was likely of comparable strength to Basil.

In the manga Goku only said that Trunks was stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Teen Gohan after having fought him for a bit. So if Base Trunks isn't stronger than Cell Saga characters then Base Cabba certainly isn't stronger than Buu saga characters.

Piccolo was able to fight on par with Frost. The Base Saiyans were weaker than Frost hence the need to transform so Base Goku, Vegeta, Cabba and Trunks would be weaker than Piccolo as they always were.

base goku fought freeza, copy base vegeta destroyed ssj3 gotenks, base goku fought beerus, base goku fought improved mr buu, ssj goku fought toppo for a bit and he didnt got finger flicked, ssj2 goku fought a much much stronger ultimate gohan and also deflected one of piccolo's strongest attacks in base form in ep 90, and this piccolo is tronger than the one ssj2 gohan faced.

The crucial problem, here, is that the anime is practically irreconcilable without resorting to out-of-universe explanations or theories about Goku's base form having drastically different strengths at different points in time.

It has expressly been said - in the anime by multiple characters, narration, and even promotional material - that the entire point of Gohan's training was to make him recover his lost strength, and yet he could fight Super Saiyan Goku way better than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks did base Goku in the Potafeu mini-arc. This happened when he was weak and out of shape.

Needless to say, base Goku can't be both stronger and weaker than Super Saiyan Gohan; just like Gohan can't be stronger and weaker than Gotenks at the same time. While there was room for doubting it before, lately the implications appear to be that regular Goku, Gohan and Piccolo could/should still be kind of comparable to their Buu Saga selves. While treading carefully when analyzing "every little feat" from "every little episode" - alas, since Super is woefully fickle, inconsistent and probably isn't even intended to be scrutinized with this much care - at bare minimum I'd confidently wager the writers do not probably write with the idea the characters are many orders of magnitude above their old manga/anime selves (as in a "Super Saiyan = Super Saiyan God" scenario, with all its relative implications since the U6 arc).

I want to point out that finger-flicking (or something like it) almost never happens in Super even when fans speculate that it should, so we can't just say "Oh, character X didn't get finger-flicked so he's obviously closer to character Y". The writers don't analyze the power scale to the extent that they would have this occur for every instance of a wide gap between two characters. There was an enormous power discrepancy between Super Saiyan Trunks and Super Saiyan Rose Black and Trunks obviously wasn't getting finger-flicked, and there's also a bunch of other examples similar to that, so it's not really a valid way of measuring anything at all.

This is how I tend to see it as well. Well... In fact, this has been one of the main gripes when fans elaborate upon the fights. It's kind of apparent that Toei's rationale - which dates all the way back to their original products in the 90s (movies, fillers) - has always lead them to fill the screen time with some slugging unless there's some need to quickly wrap the fight up. The underdog could be horribly stomped one second later (or well, even before), but it was really uncommon they wouldn't put some sort of fight. Gotenks' only fight in Super is again one of the most notable exceptions; on the other hand, Toei's original scripts warranted a Videl who could survive a couple punches from Super Saiyan Broly of all people.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

A lot of debate comes from the fact that the early arcs played up the strength of Goku and Vegeta, and the rest of the arcs that followed had to deal with this fact. Although not played up as often, the show has made it clear even in recent episodes that Goku and Vegeta are still super-strong, even in base form. Thus, one can't assume that Goku and Vegeta are anywhere near as weak as they used to be before Super began.

However, at the same time, the arcs that followed the movie adaptations have been downplaying how strong these base forms are in comparison to the power of SSG and beyond, keeping them at levels that allows other characters to catch, if a bit less believably so.

The best compromise is to place base Goku, Vegeta, and similar level characters at some upper tier form of Majin Buu.

[buutenks]

From the looks of it it was Saiyan Beyond God Goku who fought Frieza, Gotenks and Beerus. He's not as strong as that normally.

Ok so Goku used SBG on Fit Mr Buu also, and then used his regular form vs Gohan and then changed to SBG to deflect an attack from Piccolo in the same episode, then changed back to normal weaker base to fight Gohan.

So Vegeta all this time had a super strong SBG from, that he could have used to one shot every opponent in u6 apart from hit, but doesnt, instead he relies on a much weaker ssj.

What u r doing is selecting what u like and dont. I simply go by what is shown, unless specifically mentioned it to be different in universe. Aka, Gohan prior to ep 90 being weaker than his Buu saga Ultimate self.

Gohan fighting Goku and doing so well in ep 75 or 74(which it was) was simply an inconsistency. Goku in the recruitment episode is shown to be as strong if not stronger then Fit Mr Buu, who while fat was ssj3/ssj2.5 buu saga tier and after he got Fit was no doubt much stronger.

You cant pick and choose which you like just becaue it doesnt make sense. Goku from ep 16(or 15) in base form was portrayed as being much stronger than his old self.

Base Goku fight Freeza, Whis says Vegeta could never reach Goku's level without his help,copy Vegeta was much stronger than ssj3 Gotenks, base Goku fought Beerus and now fought Fit Mr Buu. And next episode, base Goku might even fight final form Freeza again.

[ssbgoku]

Ok, guys I would like to discuss with your or rather sure with you where base goku/vegeta stand now and how it was changing through whole db super. I will try to use ceiling of where their max base power could be.
Off-topic: Of course I know that out of universe it would be hard or impossible to estimate as there is too many writters who are writting different episodes so far.

rof arc - fat buu level = base goku/vegeta
u6 arc - ss2 gotenks level = base goku/vegeta
future trunks arc - Ultimate gohan buu arc = base goku/vegeta
universe surivival arc - buutenks < buuhan = base goku/vegeta

I am being humbly there and trying to at least not exclude whole copy vegeta bullshit arc. However while in universe I can not ignore whole base goku absorbing ssg power in himself and vegeta even getting stronger, I will keep most of these scenes like they were gag scenes, a long with skirmishes with beerus(monaca beerus, Goku and Vegeta changing sheet of beerus). This could also make final form frieeza rof around ss2 gotenks level at the most, so ss gohan rof arc was very weak, piccolo a bit degraded and ss gotenks feeling certain to clash and beat first form frieeza is alright to me. That also makes base cabba at u6 equal to ss gotenks, which still sound ridiculous.

Extra I see Current base Cabba and Caulifila around ultimate gohan buu arc at the most, more like super buu. Still with ss they would be above buuhan but still infferior then ss vegetto buu arc. However ss2 Cauli and LSS Kale would be above ss vegitto buu arc .

I see only buutenks member being so focused and nit picking with that either bullshit sbg or two base theory. See above

[Bullza]

What u r doing is selecting what u like and dont. I simply go by what is shown, unless specifically mentioned it to be different in universe. Aka, Gohan prior to ep 90 being weaker than his Buu saga Ultimate self.

Nah I'm not it's just trying to find the correct solution out of a complicated mess.

If they transform into regular Super Saiyan then they were using their normal power. If they transform into Super Saiyan Blue then they are using Saiyan Beyond God power.

It may not be coincidental that at least two of the times when Base Goku fought Frieza and Gotenks (and you could even say Hit) upon transforming he was Blue. However when he's fought much weaker characters like Gohan and Krillin he's turned Blonde.

Goku wasn't particularly using Saiyan Beyond God against Buu or Piccolo, they were only sparring.

We know from a few episodes ago that Gohan all throughout Super did not have the strength he had when he was Ultimate Gohan. So if Goku is comparable to Gohan then obviously he's not as strong as that either.

So Vegeta all this time had a super strong SBG from, that he could have used to one shot every opponent in u6 apart from hit, but doesnt, instead he relies on a much weaker ssj.

That could be said for anything though. Why didn't he one shot everyone in Blue form? Why did Goku mess about fighting Botamo and Frost in Base form?

Why didn't Goku use Blue form against Present Zamasu? Present Black? Why didn't Gohan use Super Saiyan 2 from the start against Lavender? Why didn't Goku use Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken from the start against Bergamo, Toppo, Krillin or Gohan?

That's just how the series is.