Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Legion]

Neither Goku nor Vegeta was surprised to learn that there is a universe in which a mortal is more powerful than a Hakaishinn.

I believe they are hiding something, or they are stronger than we imagine.
Vegeta trained on RoSaT, Goku apparently has a new transformation (maybe Vegeta too), so I do not think they're far from Beerus, but we're not sure.

Also, even Beerus himself doesn't seemed worried at all....actually, he doesn't given a fuck. He only said that he merely lost at arms wrestling with the God. That scene is weird.

[buutenks]

Ok, guys I would like to discuss with your or rather sure with you where base goku/vegeta stand now and how it was changing through whole db super. I will try to use ceiling of where their max base power could be.
Off-topic: Of course I know that out of universe it would be hard or impossible to estimate as there is too many writters who are writting different episodes so far.

rof arc - fat buu level = base goku/vegeta
u6 arc - ss2 gotenks level = base goku/vegeta
future trunks arc - Ultimate gohan buu arc = base goku/vegeta
universe surivival arc - buutenks < buuhan = base goku/vegeta

I am being humbly there and trying to at least not exclude whole copy vegeta bullshit arc. However while in universe I can not ignore whole base goku absorbing ssg power in himself and vegeta even getting stronger, I will keep most of these scenes like they were gag scenes, a long with skirmishes with beerus(monaca beerus, Goku and Vegeta changing sheet of beerus). This could also make final form frieeza rof around ss2 gotenks level at the most, so ss gohan rof arc was very weak, piccolo a bit degraded and ss gotenks feeling certain to clash and beat first form frieeza is alright to me. That also makes base cabba at u6 equal to ss gotenks, which still sound ridiculous.

Extra I see Current base Cabba and Caulifila around ultimate gohan buu arc at the most, more like super buu. Still with ss they would be above buuhan but still infferior then ss vegetto buu arc. However ss2 Cauli and LSS Kale would be above ss vegitto buu arc .

I see only buutenks member being so focused and nit picking with that either bullshit sbg or two base theory. See above

That is how it is, there is no SBG, its a game thing. Goku and Vegeta's base forms r simply very powerful. In turn so is Cabba, even tho he appears super weak and Caulifla is also at that level.

But some simply want to place the u6 saiyans at Cell saga levels, which makes no sense, when in u6 arc Vegeta said Cabba is equal to him in base form and a few episodes later we got base Goku vs Beerus and copy base Vegeta treating ssj3 Gotenks like a fly.

[SaiyanGod117]

Why do you guys measure everything off someone's base form?

[ssbgoku]

Ok, guys I would like to discuss with your or rather sure with you where base goku/vegeta stand now and how it was changing through whole db super. I will try to use ceiling of where their max base power could be.
Off-topic: Of course I know that out of universe it would be hard or impossible to estimate as there is too many writters who are writting different episodes so far.

rof arc - fat buu level = base goku/vegeta
u6 arc - ss2 gotenks level = base goku/vegeta
future trunks arc - Ultimate gohan buu arc = base goku/vegeta
universe surivival arc - buutenks < buuhan = base goku/vegeta

I am being humbly there and trying to at least not exclude whole copy vegeta bullshit arc. However while in universe I can not ignore whole base goku absorbing ssg power in himself and vegeta even getting stronger, I will keep most of these scenes like they were gag scenes, a long with skirmishes with beerus(monaca beerus, Goku and Vegeta changing sheet of beerus). This could also make final form frieeza rof around ss2 gotenks level at the most, so ss gohan rof arc was very weak, piccolo a bit degraded and ss gotenks feeling certain to clash and beat first form frieeza is alright to me. That also makes base cabba at u6 equal to ss gotenks, which still sound ridiculous.

Extra I see Current base Cabba and Caulifila around ultimate gohan buu arc at the most, more like super buu. Still with ss they would be above buuhan but still infferior then ss vegetto buu arc. However ss2 Cauli and LSS Kale would be above ss vegitto buu arc .

I see only buutenks member being so focused and nit picking with that either bullshit sbg or two base theory. See above

That is how it is, there is no SBG, its a game thing. Goku and Vegeta's base forms r simply very powerful. In turn so is Cabba, even tho he appears super weak and Caulifla is also at that level.

But some simply want to place the u6 saiyans at Cell saga levels, which makes no sense, when in u6 arc Vegeta said Cabba is equal to him in base form and a few episodes later we got base Goku vs Beerus and copy base Vegeta treating ssj3 Gotenks like a fly.

Oh then you agree with me on that ?, then I misunderstood you. anyway I don't believe base goku/vegeta was equal or more then ultimate gohan buu arc before future trunks arc. Still I can see their base being around or close to ss3 gotenks buu arc (that only if you even consider copy vegeta legit stuff instead of extra padding/ no Toryiama's draft of plot). I believe writters of this episode took it wrong way and instead of making both base goku/vegeta only a bit stronger then ss3 gotenks who would give them run for their money, they misunderstood or twisted it making them too strong. Maybe copy vegeta was supposed to be ssb already, same with Goku, who knows... if it came from Toryiama's draft of plot which is just barebone at all

[buutenks]

Oh then you agree with me on that ?, then I misunderstood you. anyway I don't believe base goku/vegeta was equal or more then ultimate gohan buu arc before future trunks arc. Still I can see their base being around or close to ss3 gotenks buu arc (that only if you even consider copy vegeta legit stuff instead of extra padding/ no Toryiama's draft of plot). I believe writters of this episode took it wrong way and instead of making both base goku/vegeta only a bit stronger then ss3 gotenks who would give them run for their money, they misunderstood or twisted it making them too strong. Maybe copy vegeta was supposed to be ssb already, same with Goku, who knows... if it came from Toryiama's draft of plot which is just barebone at all

Yes i agree that base saiyans r Buu saga r upper tier in base forms. Have had that opinion since the u6 arc started.

As for Toriyama drafts, Potaeufu arc is probably not from Toriyama. However since its part of the anime, u cant ignore it. Since the anime is the main product. And trying to combine the manga with anime seems pointless to me, since they r different.

Why do you guys measure everything off someone's base form?

What u mean?

[SaiyanGod117]

I don't think their base form gets that much stronger, I think it's the transformation themselves that actually get stronger. Using the base form as a measuring stick doesn't really make all that much sense to me. In my opinion, it's a crude way of getting stronger or deciding if someone is stronger than the other.

[Yedis]

I don't think their base form gets that much stronger, I think it's the transformation themselves that actually get stronger. Using the base form as a measuring stick doesn't really make all that much sense to me. In my opinion, it's a crude way of getting stronger or deciding if someone is stronger than the other.

Not disagreeing, but I have a question, how do we explain Base Goku vs Final Form Frieza in Resurrection F then?

[Bullza]

I don't think their base form gets that much stronger, I think it's the transformation themselves that actually get stronger. Using the base form as a measuring stick doesn't really make all that much sense to me. In my opinion, it's a crude way of getting stronger or deciding if someone is stronger than the other.

Not disagreeing, but I have a question, how do we explain Base Goku vs Final Form Frieza in Resurrection F then?

He was using Super Saiyan God's power within himself. That's why when he transformed he was a Super Saiyan Blue, the Super Saiyan form of a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God.

Seemingly Goku or Vegeta don't always use that Super Saiyan God power in Base form. That's why they turn Blonde upon transforming so often.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I don't think their base form gets that much stronger, I think it's the transformation themselves that actually get stronger. Using the base form as a measuring stick doesn't really make all that much sense to me. In my opinion, it's a crude way of getting stronger or deciding if someone is stronger than the other.

Not disagreeing, but I have a question, how do we explain Base Goku vs Final Form Frieza in Resurrection F then?

He was using Super Saiyan God's power within himself. That's why when he transformed he was a Super Saiyan Blue, the Super Saiyan form of a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God.

Seemingly Goku or Vegeta don't always use that Super Saiyan God power in Base form. That's why they turn Blonde upon transforming so often.

The issue with this interpretation is that it doesn't fill the logical hole of why SSB didn't exist after the events of BoG, and also fails to factor in the anime's expansion of the events of RoF, such as the usage of not letting Ki leak out, a concept that's indirectly referenced when Goku explained how he's able to use Kaio-ken with SSB.

Notice that they didn't gain godly power from not letting their Ki leak out in base form, merely tasted it. When they did so again in Whis's staff dimension, they still aren't visibly godly in regular form. But we've never seen the two not let their Ki leak out in SS, either doing so in the form itself or transforming into a SS from a withheld-Ki state. What we HAVE seen is transforming directly into SSB from base or SS form.

The best compromise interpretation would appear to be that making SSG's power their own made Goku and Vegeta very strong, but not at god-level. But when they prevent their Ki from leaking in the SS form, be it turning SS from a state of none-Ki-leakage or not letting Ki leak in SS, they surpass SSG and become SSB.

[Marlowe89]

The issue with this interpretation is that it doesn't fill the logical hole of why SSB didn't exist after the events of BoG, and also fails to factor in the anime's expansion of the events of RoF, such as the usage of not letting Ki leak out, a concept that's indirectly referenced when Goku explained how he's able to use Kaio-ken with SSB.

Personally, I don't think the concept of not letting ki leak out was anything more than Goku and Vegeta learning how to properly utilize their own Godly power. When Goku describes what Super Saiyan Blue is, he just calls it the Super Saiyan form of a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God -- there's no further elaboration than that, so I'd say the best bet is probably just to take the statement at face value.

The obvious consequence of this of course is the acknowledgement that this corroborates the RoF booklet regarding the idea that there are indeed two bases, but keep in mind that it's not so much a consequence when you realize that the second, more powerful base is hardly ever used in the anime anyway. It's just there to explain the difference between Super Saiyan Blue and Super Saiyan.

[Bullza]

Looking at the subs for the newest episode Whis does say this

"there is a universe where lives a mortal even a God of Destruction can't defeat."

And in the context of the conversation it surely has to be from one of the universes participating. It also makes it sound like this mortal is above that universes specific God of Destruction because the next line is

"That God of Destruction happens to be stronger than Beerus sama."

Though it was just at an arm wrestling match.

So the question I suppose is who that mortal is. Safe to say it's nobody from Universe 6 or 9 nor is it Toppo.

Right now chances are it's probably Jiren.

[Cabba]

Wait, Freeza got stronger?
Goku said that in the position of Freeza, he could not make agreements, but Freeza says that he can get even stronger and he is transformed.
Then he says that Goku is curious about his evolution.
Did he really get stronger? After that, Goku says that was his weak point. I do not understand

This got me scratching my head as well. Worst case scenario they are taking us for stupid and treating Golden form as a new transformation Goku hadnt seen before
A new transformation or Gold power up even would be cool. I'm expecting the worst though

Neither Goku nor Vegeta was surprised to learn that there is a universe in which a mortal is more powerful than a Hakaishinn.
I believe they are hiding something, or they are stronger than we imagine.
Vegeta trained on RoSaT, Goku apparently has a new transformation (maybe Vegeta too), so I do not think they're far from Beerus, but we're not sure.

I find this rather interesting/odd as well. Why would they not be freaking out a member stronger than them is participating unless they secretly know are stronger than this
Could be a mortal that its from one of the excluded universes as well

Seemed to me that he was referring to his potential. He could still get much, much more stronger by training for a few more months. And if he was to actually train with a sparring partner this time, he'd be able to give even Kaio-Ken x10 Goku a run for his money. Goku getting excited about the idea was his weakness, and Freeza would try to convince him to let him live by taking advantage of this weakness.

Thats an interesting idea but what about freeza comments about Goku being curious about his evolution right after he transform into Gold?

I'm betting it is Jiren and they're referring to Bermoud being stronger than Beerus.

Toei has the habit of misleading viewers purposedly, which is why i think Jiren is too obvious to be true
Would be awesome though, if Goku finally surpassed Beerus (which he would need to if he is going to fight Jiren on near even terms)

Yeah, Freeza basically baited Goku into agreeing to his terms by exploiting Goku's fatal character flaw of desiring for strong opponent to fight and train with, and drawing out all their potential. The exchange between Goku and Freeza was masterfully handled in the latest episode.

Goku did say in FnF that Freeza would be a great adversary/rival if he wasnt so evil right after frieza showed him his final form
So there is foreshadowing for this looking back

Looking at the subs for the newest episode Whis does say this

"there is a universe where lives a mortal even a God of Destruction can't defeat."

And in the context of the conversation it surely has to be from one of the universes participating. It also makes it sound like this mortal is above that universes specific God of Destruction because the next line is
"That God of Destruction happens to be stronger than Beerus sama."
Though it was just at an arm wrestling match.

Thats how i understood it as well, a mortal stronger than the God of Destruction from his universe which is coincidentally stronger than beerus
Even if the arm wrestling thing was not definitive proof, siad God of Destruction must be at least as strong as beerus and this mortal is confirmed to be Stronger than said God of Destruction

I would be really exited if it turns out to be Jiren because that would mean Goku surpassing Beerus but idk i fee they are misleading us

[TheSaiyanGod]

Goku said that he and Vegeta could defeat Freeza in case he tried to do something.

He did not even talk about Gohan and neither about 17, indicating that they are probably not able to defeat him

In DBS the power of Goku's base form is very contradictory.

At one point, he is superior to Freeza final form (who in the first form defeated Gohan SSJ with a punch), swaps punches with Beerus (restrained) and defeats Gotenks SSJ3 (in that case was Vegeta).
In other situations, we see SSJ2 trunks being able to fight Goku SSJ2 (would have to have a base form at a level close to that of Goku), we see Gohan with few hours of training equaling, android 17 defeating Goku SSJ, among others.

So all of them suddenly are much stronger than Gotenks SSJ3? Than Super Boo Gotenks? Super Boo Gohan?

It would be easier to accept the idea of '' two bases '', but this has never been made very clear in the anime, so it's hard to

[SaiyanGod117]

I don't think their base form gets that much stronger, I think it's the transformation themselves that actually get stronger. Using the base form as a measuring stick doesn't really make all that much sense to me. In my opinion, it's a crude way of getting stronger or deciding if someone is stronger than the other.

Not disagreeing, but I have a question, how do we explain Base Goku vs Final Form Frieza in Resurrection F then?

Fot that instance, that was the result of Goku absorbing the power of SSG and training with Whis. The reason his base isn't that strong now, is because ya'know the writers are incompetent and mess up shit every other episode.

[Cabba]

In other situations, we see SSJ2 trunks being able to fight Goku SSJ2 (would have to have a base form at a level close to that of Goku), we see Gohan with few hours of training equaling, android 17 defeating Goku SSJ, among others.
So all of them suddenly are much stronger than Gotenks SSJ3? Than Super Boo Gotenks? Super Boo Gohan?
It would be easier to accept the idea of '' two bases '', but this has never been made very clear in the anime, so it's hard to

Trunks sparring session is a special case in both manga and anime
In the anime Goku was just blocking Trunks hits, he wasn't really serious and only turned SSJ3 to show him a new transformation. I believe they did this mostly as fan service
In the manga Trunks shows a ascended SS(2) transformation that rivals SS3 while goku jumped straight to SS3

The manga showed us Vegeta max power SS(2) is near Vegeto tier which means goku didn't use this form in his sparring session with trunks

About Gohan he didn't really do any traditional training, it was more spiritual to get back the mytic form the elder kaoishin unlocked and push it even further the limits Gohan was aware off . With the info we have now i wouldnt put Gohan at SSB level, he is a notch above full power SS(2) Goku

I dont think there are two bases, rather than the writers haven't decided were to put their base power. As it stand its in a constant state of flux subject to change

[TheSaiyanGod]

In other situations, we see SSJ2 trunks being able to fight Goku SSJ2 (would have to have a base form at a level close to that of Goku), we see Gohan with few hours of training equaling, android 17 defeating Goku SSJ, among others.
So all of them suddenly are much stronger than Gotenks SSJ3? Than Super Boo Gotenks? Super Boo Gohan?
It would be easier to accept the idea of '' two bases '', but this has never been made very clear in the anime, so it's hard to

Trunks sparring session is a special case in both manga and anime
In the anime Goku was just blocking Trunks hits, he wasn't really serious and only turned SSJ3 to show him a new transformation. I believe they did this mostly as fan service
In the manga Trunks shows a ascended SS(2) transformation that rivals SS3 while goku jumped straight to SS3

The manga showed us Vegeta max power SS(2) is near Vegeto tier which means goku didn't use this form in his sparring session with trunks

About Gohan he didn't really do any traditional training, it was more spiritual to get back the mytic form the elder kaoishin unlocked and push it even further the limits Gohan was aware off . With the info we have now i wouldnt put Gohan at SSB level, he is a notch above full power SS(2) Goku

I dont think there are two bases, rather than the writers haven't decided were to put their base power. As it stand its in a constant state of flux subject to change

Yes, I also think they are constantly changing the power of their base form. I do not think Odd Trunks SSJ2 get close to the Goku SSJ3 in the manga, it's just strange he's in base form being superior to Gotenks SSJ3. In the anime, Kid Trunks says that Goku was being pressured by Trunks' punches (even though he was inferior).

Gohan actually regained his Ultimate form, but he in the base form managed to rival Goku. In the transition episodes, he (having stopped fighting long) manages to rival Goku SSJ, and he should be much lower

[Doctor.]

Looking at the subs for the newest episode Whis does say this

"there is a universe where lives a mortal even a God of Destruction can't defeat."

And in the context of the conversation it surely has to be from one of the universes participating. It also makes it sound like this mortal is above that universes specific God of Destruction because the next line is

"That God of Destruction happens to be stronger than Beerus sama."

Though it was just at an arm wrestling match.

So the question I suppose is who that mortal is. Safe to say it's nobody from Universe 6 or 9 nor is it Toppo.

Right now chances are it's probably Jiren.

It's Android #17, wait and see.

[Cabba]

Yes, I also think they are constantly changing the power of their base form. I do not think Odd Trunks SSJ2 get close to the Goku SSJ3 in the manga, it's just strange he's in base form being superior to Gotenks SSJ3. In the anime, Kid Trunks says that Goku was being pressured by Trunks' punches (even though he was inferior).

Gohan actually regained his Ultimate form, but he in the base form managed to rival Goku. In the transition episodes, he (having stopped fighting long) manages to rival Goku SSJ, and he should be much lower

Trunks full power SS(2) was indeed near as powerful as SSJ3 this was stated by Vegeta. The problem here is that SSJ3 was brought to use as a barometer to compare power
Goku certainly has the the more powerful SS(2) form like Vegeta which is near Vegeto tier, its just that he did not use this form against trunks

We have evidence of Trunks actually tapping SS(2) even further to reach SSJ3 tier, Goku did not do this and instead jumped straight to SSJ3
After God training Goku realized Base form and SSJ is superior to SS3, SS3 is just a variation a different road to higher power. Think of it in the terms of Goku vs Vegeta SSJ forms in the Cell saga, they both followed different path to surpass their current SSJ limit

Gohan new form is himself. There are no two bases like a mystic and normal one, this differentiation is a fan made thing. Mystic form was never implied to be a transformation, it wasnt called a form either it was just all the latent power being drawn. Gohan fought base Goku with superior power which is why Goku complimented him at the end saying he got his fighting sense back. "The Mystic" form is just him going full power
Now that he "recovered" his mystic power it makes no sense for him to have two bases. He is his same self at all time, he has full control of his ki and max power

Goku also tanked Piccolos concentrated full power attack in base form, the same piccolo that was able to defeat SS2 Gohan and take his Mystic form by surprise with his severed hand

[TheSaiyanGod]

Yes, I also think they are constantly changing the power of their base form. I do not think Odd Trunks SSJ2 get close to the Goku SSJ3 in the manga, it's just strange he's in base form being superior to Gotenks SSJ3. In the anime, Kid Trunks says that Goku was being pressured by Trunks' punches (even though he was inferior).

Gohan actually regained his Ultimate form, but he in the base form managed to rival Goku. In the transition episodes, he (having stopped fighting long) manages to rival Goku SSJ, and he should be much lower

Trunks full power SS(2) was indeed near as powerful as SSJ3 this was stated by Vegeta. The problem here is that SSJ3 was brought to use as a barometer to compare power
Goku certainly has the the more powerful SS(2) form like Vegeta which is near Vegeto tier, its just that he did not use this form against trunks

We have evidence of Trunks actually tapping SS(2) even further to reach SSJ3 tier, Goku did not do this and instead jumped straight to SSJ3
After God training Goku realized Base form and SSJ is superior to SS3, SS3 is just a variation a different road to higher power. Think of it in the terms of Goku vs Vegeta SSJ forms in the Cell saga, they both followed different path to surpass their current SSJ limit

Gohan new form is himself. There are no two bases like a mystic and normal one, this differentiation is a fan made thing. Mystic form was never implied to be a transformation, it wasnt called a form either it was just all the latent power being drawn. Gohan fought base Goku with superior power which is why Goku complimented him at the end saying he got his fighting sense back. "The Mystic" form is just him going full power
Now that he "recovered" his mystic power it makes no sense for him to have two bases. He is his same self at all time, he has full control of his ki and max power

Goku also tanked Piccolos concentrated full power attack in base form, the same piccolo that was able to defeat SS2 Gohan and take his Mystic form by surprise with his severed hand

I know that the Ultimate form is not a transformation.
I consider it a '' state ''.

But she just releases all her hidden power when she uses it. And even without using this '' form '', he was able to rival Goku's base.

In fact, Vegeta did not say that Trunks SSJ2 had a power close to that of Goku SSJ3?
I think he did not say equal or superior

[Bullza]

Vegeta said that Trunks is "as strong as Kakarrot's Super Saiyan 3" after he powered up. Before that he was said to be slightly better than SSJ2 Goku and was much better than SSJ2 Teen Gohan from the Cell Games.

Vegeta's SSJ2 though was much stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks at least. I'm hesitant to say he was stronger than Ultimate Gohan because even though it appeared that way....recent info makes it seem like he wasn't that strong since the Buu saga.

He easily could be though if he's well over fifty times stronger than SSJ3 Goku.