Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[wolflonnie]

Yeah Krillin is inconsistent. Either A18 and he have progressed to at least SSJ2 levels, or it doesn't make sense that he's still losing against his wife YET performing well against Basil and a base Gohan and Goku shown to keep up with higher tiers of power (Majin Buu, Piccolo).

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

The Base Saiyans aren't above SSJ3 Gotenks normally though.

During the Universe 6 saga they were all weaker than Piccolo. Cabba in particular was derided for being so weak he shouldn't have been there.

Obviously Krillin wouldn't have put up any kind of fight against Basil or Base Goku if they were that strong. They wouldn't even need to bother to dodge or block any of his attacks.

Krillin shouldn't​be close to Namek Frieza's power so I wouldn't say any of the Trio Dear Dangers were.

Yea but base Goku also was able to over power Piccolo charged attack in ep 90. And on top of that Goku fought a fit Mr Buu in base. If base Goku would be as strong as his Buu saga self, then he wouldn't have been able to do all those things. Plus the copy Vegeta thing.

So, most likely the inconsistent one is Krillin.

Also, we don't know if base Goku and Vegeta were weaker than Piccolo in u6 arc. Piccolo's PL in the u6 arc is a mystery.

(This one is to buutenks) As the second episode following that arc told us, EVEN Piccolo could beat Goku at that moment thanks to the latter's Ki Onset Disorder. Goku also flat-out told Piccolo that he stood no chance, to which Piccolo agreed. Unlike the manga, the anime is quite clear that Frost, despite being weakened from his battle with SS Goku, is still quite clearly stronger than Piccolo, enough that he was forced to go on the defensive and charge up a Makankosappo beyond its limits just to defeat Frost. And the episode following that Ki Onset Disorder event, we see that Goku and Vegeta are proven to be above at least SS3 Gotenks, which lends credence to Piccolo being inferior to their base forms.

(This one is to bullza) Also, fighting well against an opponent doesn't necessarily mean being close to their power level. Krillin fought Goku better than in that image battle with Basil, but Basil is quite clearly not as strong as Goku. Krillin wasn't directly trading blows with either of those two, because he's inferior power-wise and thus requires out-of-the-box thinking and alternative martial arts.

[Marlowe89]

Yea but base Goku also was able to over power Piccolo charged attack in ep 90. And on top of that Goku fought a fit Mr Buu in base. If base Goku would be as strong as his Buu saga self, then he wouldn't have been able to do all those things. Plus the copy Vegeta thing.

While I agree that the base Saiyans could very well be stronger than their Buu Saga selves, if a faster (but not necessarily stronger) Majin Buu was able to cause that much trouble for base Goku then there's definitely no way they can feasibly reside above Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks. Super Saiyan Gohan was also fighting evenly against a Super Saiyan Goku who should have been near his full power in that form considering that he was abiding by Gohan's request not to hold back and was also getting into the match to the extent that he wasn't even aware of the destruction he was causing.

[Bullza]

Yea but base Goku also was able to over power Piccolo charged attack in ep 90. And on top of that Goku fought a fit Mr Buu in base.

Well at least you could just say they weren't fighting too seriously as they were just sparring.

During the same scene Base Goku and Base Gohan fought evenly. A couple episodes before that though we saw Super Saiyan 2 Gohan and Piccolo fight somewhat evenly and we know that Super Saiyan 2 Gohan was weaker than Ultimate Gohan from the Buu saga.

Pretty contradictory with Base Goku fighting Copy Vegeta in the Copy Water arc unless this Saiyan Beyond God form is really a thing.

Also, we don't know if base Goku and Vegeta were weaker than Piccolo in u6 arc. Piccolo's PL in the u6 arc is a mystery.

Well at the very least we know he's weaker than Buu being he was the second choice. He put up a good fight against Frost whereas Vegeta still needed to transform to fight an easy more tired Frost.

Definitely in the manga Piccolo seems stronger.

Also, fighting well against an opponent doesn't necessarily mean being close to their power level. Krillin fought Goku better than in that image battle with Basil, but Basil is quite clearly not as strong as Goku. Krillin wasn't directly trading blows with either of those two, because he's inferior power-wise and thus requires out-of-the-box thinking and alternative martial arts.

That's true but the imagination fight was going off of Goku and Gohan's expectations of Krillin based on how he was...in the Resurrection F saga? Whereas the reality that Goku fought was even better than expected and Goku said he was as strong as ever.

SSJ3 Gotenks wailed and blasted away at Copy Vegeta who didn't feel the need to do anything but stand there so whether Krillin thought outside of the box or not it shouldn't really make any difference, Goku shouldn't have had to have even moved if his strength was the same as in the Copy Water arc.

Same with when he fought Roshi and Gohan.

[TheSaiyanGod]

I think Hit never managed to stop Goku SSB Kaioken x10 with Tokitobashi.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Goku's skin with the SSB Kaioken x10 gets much redder than with the ordinary Kaioken.
After the Kamehameha, Goku's appearance did not at any point remain as the Kaioken x10, only with the normal Kaioken.

So Goku at least became twice as strong as in the bow of the tournament (Or more than that, because the Tokitobashi still worked with the normal Kaioken, which increases Goku's strength twice)

Yea but base Goku also was able to over power Piccolo charged attack in ep 90. And on top of that Goku fought a fit Mr Buu in base. If base Goku would be as strong as his Buu saga self, then he wouldn't have been able to do all those things. Plus the copy Vegeta thing.

While I agree that the base Saiyans could very well be stronger than their Buu Saga selves, if a faster (but not necessarily stronger) Majin Buu was able to cause that much trouble for base Goku then there's definitely no way they can feasibly reside above Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks. Super Saiyan Gohan was also fighting evenly against a Super Saiyan Goku who should have been near his full power in that form considering that he was abiding by Gohan's request not to hold back and was also getting into the match to the extent that he wasn't even aware of the destruction he was causing.

Goku was able to swap punches and defend Slim Boo's Ki attacks calmly. And we do not even know how much of his power he used.

He only lost because he was thrown out of the arena after being caught off guard by Boo.
But he did not appear to suffer any harm from Boo's attacks after the fight

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I think the biggest obstacle to power-scaling is that people aren't willing to let go of the preconceived notions of how power works from before Dragon Ball Super when it comes to debating now.

Some instances work off of the old linear power-scaling, like SS3 Gotenks being defeated by Copy-Vegeta, but others don't, like Krillin holding his own against Goku.

Think of it like this:

If it the fight looks to pit two fundamentally different fighters in terms of power levels, emphasize the usage of skill and tactics over pure power.

If it looks to be a straight-up slug-fest, emphasize the power differences.

If it's a little of both, emphasize both aspects.

===

For example, because Krillin is much weaker in terms of pure power against someone like >Majin Buu base-level Goku, emphasize how he used his martial arts skill and tactics to hold on in the battle.

Another example is SS3 Gotenks, who went for a pure slugfest with Copy-Vegeta, so we emphasize how his power wasn't comparable to Vegeta and Goku's full base power.

[TheSaiyanGod]

If Goku SSJ2 has managed to face Ultimate Gohan that is much stronger than Gohan SSJ2, then the base form of Goku is much stronger than the base form of Gohan.

Slim Boo was at least level Vegeta SSJ2 (Saga Boo) and even then Goku was able to face him in base form as well

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

If Goku SSJ2 has managed to face Ultimate Gohan that is much stronger than Gohan SSJ2, then the base form of Goku is much stronger than the base form of Gohan.

And if Gohan were equal to Goku in base form, that would put Ultimate at about 20 times stronger than SS3, which, if a Majin Buu-level base form were involved, would be a reasonable level for SSB to be.

[Marlowe89]

But he did not appear to suffer any harm from Boo's attacks after the fight

Yes he did, he flat-out said so.

He also wasn't "calmly" deflecting the ki blasts, he was occupied to the degree that he couldn't deal with Buu's rush attack. He even noticed Buu charging at him before the impact but couldn't react in time to defend himself, so obviously he was having some trouble.

[buutenks]

I place base Goku and Vegeta at upper Buu saga tier. Ssj3 Goku++ level. Most feats support this. While there r a few that contradict it.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I place base Goku and Vegeta at upper Buu saga tier. Ssj3 Goku++ level. Most feats support this. While there r a few that contradict it.

And many of those can be explained by my formula above, or other factors. Some are directly explained themselves, too.

[buutenks]

I place base Goku and Vegeta at upper Buu saga tier. Ssj3 Goku++ level. Most feats support this. While there r a few that contradict it.

And many of those can be explained by my formula above, or other factors. Some are directly explained themselves, too.

The ones that contradict it is Goku vs Gohan in ep74 or 75.

[buutenks]

Yea but base Goku also was able to over power Piccolo charged attack in ep 90. And on top of that Goku fought a fit Mr Buu in base.

Well at least you could just say they weren't fighting too seriously as they were just sparring.

During the same scene Base Goku and Base Gohan fought evenly. A couple episodes before that though we saw Super Saiyan 2 Gohan and Piccolo fight somewhat evenly and we know that Super Saiyan 2 Gohan was weaker than Ultimate Gohan from the Buu saga.

Pretty contradictory with Base Goku fighting Copy Vegeta in the Copy Water arc unless this Saiyan Beyond God form is really a thing.

Also, we don't know if base Goku and Vegeta were weaker than Piccolo in u6 arc. Piccolo's PL in the u6 arc is a mystery.

Well at the very least we know he's weaker than Buu being he was the second choice. He put up a good fight against Frost whereas Vegeta still needed to transform to fight an easy more tired Frost.

Definitely in the manga Piccolo seems stronger.

Also, fighting well against an opponent doesn't necessarily mean being close to their power level. Krillin fought Goku better than in that image battle with Basil, but Basil is quite clearly not as strong as Goku. Krillin wasn't directly trading blows with either of those two, because he's inferior power-wise and thus requires out-of-the-box thinking and alternative martial arts.

That's true but the imagination fight was going off of Goku and Gohan's expectations of Krillin based on how he was...in the Resurrection F saga? Whereas the reality that Goku fought was even better than expected and Goku said he was as strong as ever.

SSJ3 Gotenks wailed and blasted away at Copy Vegeta who didn't feel the need to do anything but stand there so whether Krillin thought outside of the box or not it shouldn't really make any difference, Goku shouldn't have had to have even moved if his strength was the same as in the Copy Water arc.

Same with when he fought Roshi and Gohan.

About base Goku vs base Gohan: Considering ssj2 Goku did so well vs Ultimate Gohan, it could be that Goku lowered his base power to that of Gohan, since it was a sparring match.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I place base Goku and Vegeta at upper Buu saga tier. Ssj3 Goku++ level. Most feats support this. While there r a few that contradict it.

And many of those can be explained by my formula above, or other factors. Some are directly explained themselves, too.

The ones that contradict it is Goku vs Gohan in ep74 or 75.

Even then, there are implicit explanations that can be come up with. For example, a few episodes before this instance, Goku expressed a desire to go SS against Krillin, of all people.

He likes to go SS, and it's an easy way to amp up one's power quickly for the purposes of "not holding back".

[TheSaiyanGod]

But he did not appear to suffer any harm from Boo's attacks after the fight

Yes he did, he flat-out said so.

He also wasn't "calmly" deflecting the ki blasts, he was occupied to the degree that he couldn't deal with Buu's rush attack. He even noticed Buu charging at him before the impact but couldn't react in time to defend himself, so obviously he was having some trouble.

Boo distracted him with the Ki Blasts, that's all.
It's not as if Goku was so busy that he could not handle the two attacks at once, it was a kind of strategy that Boo himself realized.
So much so that Goku used the same thing when he fought Gohan (and Piccolo realized).

Goku does not even seem to have suffered damage from all those punches, since he was laughing right after falling.
Boo basically won because of a strategy.

[Marlowe89]

For example, a few episodes before this instance, Goku expressed a desire to go SS against Krillin, of all people.

I don't think that changes the context of his match-up against Gohan though, since there are clearly indicators I've outlined that suggest Super Saiyan Goku wasn't holding back much (if at all) against Super Saiyan Gohan.

It's not as if Goku was so busy that he could not handle the two attacks at once

Except that's literally exactly what happened. Goku saw Buu coming in for the charge, expressed surprise, couldn't react and got slammed to the ground. That's the extent of Buu's strategy and it wouldn't have succeeded at all if base Goku was so far above Buu that he could have handled the strategy.

Goku does not even seem to have suffered damage from all those punches, since he was laughing right after falling.

Goku laughs and expresses excitement all the time when he's having a good match. It doesn't change the fact that he clearly indicated he was harmed by Buu's attack.

[BlueBasilisk]

The ones that contradict it is Goku vs Gohan in ep74 or 75.

I'm pretty sure Goku wasn't using his full power there. He admits he was holding back at the start of the fight, and right before he and Gohan trade their final blows, he says "I still got more!" Goku was just looking for someone to spar with, after all.

[TheSaiyanGod]

For example, a few episodes before this instance, Goku expressed a desire to go SS against Krillin, of all people.

I don't think that changes the context of his match-up against Gohan though, since there are clearly indicators I've outlined that suggest Super Saiyan Goku wasn't holding back much (if at all) against Super Saiyan Gohan.

It's not as if Goku was so busy that he could not handle the two attacks at once

Except that's literally exactly what happened. Goku saw Buu coming in for the charge, expressed surprise, couldn't react and got slammed to the ground. That's the extent of Buu's strategy and it wouldn't have succeeded at all if base Goku was so far above Buu that he could have handled the strategy.

Goku does not even seem to have suffered damage from all those punches, since he was laughing right after falling.

Goku laughs and expresses excitement all the time when he's having a good match. It doesn't change the fact that he clearly indicated he was harmed by Buu's attack.

Goku expressed surprise at the moment when Boo caught him off guard, obviously.
But Goku did not even know about this strategy, so much so that he said that Boo would not be able to defeat him with Ki Blasts (implying that Goku imagined that this was Boo's goal).

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Goku himself said that Boo took advantage that Goku was not able to see anything because of the Ki Blasts and attacked him, hitting him by surprise.

That is, Goku did not expect this and was caught unawares.
But we realize that he does not even seem to be injured after the blows, as if it were nothing (of course he caused damage at the time, but then he did not show or be hurt)

[spoiler][/spoiler]

[LowRyder2005]

The ones that contradict it is Goku vs Gohan in ep74 or 75.

I'm pretty sure Goku wasn't using his full power there. He admits he was holding back at the start of the fight, and right before he and Gohan trade their final blows, he says "I still got more!" Goku was just looking for someone to spar with, after all.

I think most people would agree with that. The point is that whatever level Goku was as a Super Saiyan, we are supposed to believe he was above the full extent of his base power; in turn, it puts Super Saiyan Gohan above that very level.
However, Gohan was inferior to his Buu saga counterpart, which jars irreconcilably with the notion that base Goku was at a level far, far beyond his Buu saga self. We are talking about hundreds of times stronger, according to whoever supports the theory. Gohan would hypothetically be in the same realm of power compared to his older self, or at least many times stronger than SS3 Gotenks, and yet everyone was talking about how "disappointing" or "weaker than usual" he was before episode 90.

There's also the fact that during ROF, Gohan and Good Buu were represented as if they both belonged least a similar tier of strength, therefore it sounds even more improbable for Gohan to have become hundreds or thousands of times stronger after the Buu saga. Along with the fact that Base Goku, Base Vegeta and Base Gohan were equal after Vegeta had reportedly become "unrecognizable", power-wise, because of Whis' training. Even more jarringly Gohan had slacked, and yet you have stuff like episode 75. Honestly, I wouldn't even limit myself to Gohan vs. Goku: the Piccolo/Goku/Gohan/Gotenks situation the anime is just plain contradictory unless you juxtapose other particular clauses like retcons, two bases and similar stuff.

[Marlowe89]

But we realize that he does not even seem to be injured after the blows

I feel like you're moving the goalposts here. Buu never had the intention to seriously injure Goku and I'm not saying that either of them were going all-out -- it's just a sparring match. The point is that Buu was capable of catching him off-guard, hurting him (as Goku himself plainly admitted) and performing well enough that Goku was also amazed by Buu's strength. The latter two facts in particular would certainly be implausible if base Goku was significantly stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks who was significantly stronger than Super Buu who was significantly stronger than Majin Buu. That idea doesn't mesh with what we were shown.