Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

But we realize that he does not even seem to be injured after the blows

I feel like you're moving the goalposts here. Buu never had the intention to seriously injure Goku and I'm not saying that either of them were going all-out -- it's just a sparring match. The point is that Buu was capable of catching him off-guard, hurting him (as Goku himself plainly admitted) and performing well enough that Goku was also amazed by Buu's strength. The latter two facts in particular would certainly be implausible if base Goku was significantly stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks who was significantly stronger than Super Buu who was significantly stronger than Majin Buu. That idea doesn't mesh with what we were shown.

Well, "significantly" can be relative.

Compared to, say, the original Ultimate Gohan, perhaps the difference between SS3 Gotenks and base Goku/Vegeta/Gohan/Piccolo/Slim Buu isn't as significant as we're led to believe. After all, people who still hold the old standards of power-scaling to heart could justify this as the difference being minimal relatively speaking, but significant for SS3 Gotenks.

Could be as little as 15% and the fight could still go the same way if we stretch things a bit.

[Marlowe89]

Compared to, say, the original Ultimate Gohan, perhaps the difference between SS3 Gotenks and base Goku/Vegeta/Gohan/Piccolo/Slim Buu isn't as significant as we're led to believe.

Maybe not, and I don't necessarily believe that such a gap would be too significant if it existed -- but it would have to be large enough that Gotenks couldn't lay a scratch on base Goku/Vegeta and yet Slim Buu was able to harm base Goku which is contradictory.

So unless we believe that Slim Buu was considerably stronger than base Majin Buu and even Super Buu (which IS a possibility I suppose, although that's not what I personally got out of the dialogue), the idea that base Goku is stronger at all than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks doesn't really hold up.

[BlueBasilisk]

I think most people would agree with that. The point is that whatever level Goku was as a Super Saiyan, we are supposed to believe he was above the full extent of his base power; in turn, it puts Super Saiyan Gohan above that very level.
However, Gohan was inferior to his Buu saga counterpart, which jars irreconcilably with the notion that base Goku was at a level far, far beyond his Buu saga self. We are talking about hundreds of times stronger, according to whoever supports the theory. Gohan would hypothetically be in the same realm of power compared to his older self, or at least many times stronger than SS3 Gotenks, and yet everyone was talking about how "disappointing" or "weaker than usual" he was before episode 90.

There's also the fact that during ROF, Gohan and Good Buu were represented as if they both belonged least a similar tier of strength, therefore it sounds even more improbable for Gohan to have become hundreds or thousands of times stronger after the Buu saga. Along with the fact that Base Goku, Base Vegeta and Base Gohan were equal after Vegeta had reportedly become "unrecognizable", power-wise, because of Whis' training. Even more jarringly Gohan had slacked, and yet you have stuff like episode 75. Honestly, I wouldn't even limit myself to Gohan vs. Goku: the Piccolo/Goku/Gohan/Gotenks situation the anime is just plain contradictory unless you juxtapose other particular clauses like retcons, two bases and similar stuff.

What stands out to me here is Gohan, as it seems that the writers can't settle on how strong he's supposed to be. We're told in RoF and a couple other times that he's out of practice and weakened, but the way he is shown to perform several times suggests that he is as strong or stronger than before but his skills are lacking. For example, Tagoma: He's said to be as strong as Gohan at his peak, but Gohan himself and Gotenks are easily able to knock him on his ass. Watching Episode 88 again, my take is that Gohan does still have his power but he has trouble accessing it because his fighting instincts have dulled and he doesn't have a warrior's heart anymore. Piccolo is able to draw out more and more of his power, all the way up to his Ultimate form, just by challenging the way he's thinking and fighting, and then takes him even further in less than 24 hours of training. He's gotten soft and can't fully utilize what he has available.

[TheSaiyanGod]

But we realize that he does not even seem to be injured after the blows

I feel like you're moving the goalposts here. Buu never had the intention to seriously injure Goku and I'm not saying that either of them were going all-out -- it's just a sparring match. The point is that Buu was capable of catching him off-guard, hurting him (as Goku himself plainly admitted) and performing well enough that Goku was also amazed by Buu's strength. The latter two facts in particular would certainly be implausible if base Goku was significantly stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks who was significantly stronger than Super Buu who was significantly stronger than Majin Buu. That idea doesn't mesh with what we were shown.

I agree that neither Goku nor Boo were fighting with all power.
But Goku was not hurt.
And the power difference does not have to be small so that one can trade punches with the other.

Just to have a parameter, let's use the fighting powers shown in some guides.

Goku in the fight against Freeza (in Namek) had 3 million.
Freeza, only with HALF of his power had 60 million.

But as at the beginning of the fight, everyone who was watching thought that Goku and Freeza were on the same level? Because Goku could deflect, resist and hit blows on Freeza?
Simple, because Freeza restrained himself. He used only a small part of his power to deal with Goku (he even got scratched by it).

I'm not saying this is the same case between Goku and Boo, but the fact that Boo hit him for having caught him off guard does not mean much about the power difference between them

[Marlowe89]

But Goku was not hurt.

He was hurt because he said he was hurt, not to mention he proceeded to compliment Buu on how "amazing" he supposedly was. I'm not gonna start assuming he was just being modest because there's nothing to indicate that at all.

Judging from the rest of your post, you seem to be under the impression that I'm trying to make an argument about the difference in power between Slim Buu and base Goku specifically. I'm not. Like you said, the scene leaves us with no way of comparing the two since it was nothing more than a friendly sparring match and neither of them appeared to be super serious.

What I'm saying is that it's a stark contrast from the scene in which Gotenks couldn't even so much as budge Copy Vegeta who wasn't even trying himself, yet Gotenks is considerably stronger than Majin Buu. There are only three ways to avoid a contradiction here: 1. We assume that there's been a retcon of some kind, 2. We assume that two bases exist in the Super anime as supplementary material for the RoF film suggests, or 3. We assume that Slim Buu is comfortably stronger than both Fat Buu and Super Buu. If we go with either of the first two options, we'd have to admit that base Goku is ordinarily not on par with Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks.

[buutenks]

But we realize that he does not even seem to be injured after the blows

I feel like you're moving the goalposts here. Buu never had the intention to seriously injure Goku and I'm not saying that either of them were going all-out -- it's just a sparring match. The point is that Buu was capable of catching him off-guard, hurting him (as Goku himself plainly admitted) and performing well enough that Goku was also amazed by Buu's strength. The latter two facts in particular would certainly be implausible if base Goku was significantly stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks who was significantly stronger than Super Buu who was significantly stronger than Majin Buu. That idea doesn't mesh with what we were shown.

I agree that neither Goku nor Boo were fighting with all power.
But Goku was not hurt.
And the power difference does not have to be small so that one can trade punches with the other.

Just to have a parameter, let's use the fighting powers shown in some guides.

Goku in the fight against Freeza (in Namek) had 3 million.
Freeza, only with HALF of his power had 60 million.

But as at the beginning of the fight, everyone who was watching thought that Goku and Freeza were on the same level? Because Goku could deflect, resist and hit blows on Freeza?
Simple, because Freeza restrained himself. He used only a small part of his power to deal with Goku (he even got scratched by it).

I'm not saying this is the same case between Goku and Boo, but the fact that Boo hit him for having caught him off guard does not mean much about the power difference between them

Actually that isnt what happened. King kai in the manga said Goku was always using kkx10 vs Freeza when Tien said that Goku is doing so well, so with kaioken he will win easily. Most likely, base Goku is in the range of Fit Mr Buu.

[Cursemark505]

I feel like you're moving the goalposts here. Buu never had the intention to seriously injure Goku and I'm not saying that either of them were going all-out -- it's just a sparring match. The point is that Buu was capable of catching him off-guard, hurting him (as Goku himself plainly admitted) and performing well enough that Goku was also amazed by Buu's strength. The latter two facts in particular would certainly be implausible if base Goku was significantly stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks who was significantly stronger than Super Buu who was significantly stronger than Majin Buu. That idea doesn't mesh with what we were shown.

I agree that neither Goku nor Boo were fighting with all power.
But Goku was not hurt.
And the power difference does not have to be small so that one can trade punches with the other.

Just to have a parameter, let's use the fighting powers shown in some guides.

Goku in the fight against Freeza (in Namek) had 3 million.
Freeza, only with HALF of his power had 60 million.

But as at the beginning of the fight, everyone who was watching thought that Goku and Freeza were on the same level? Because Goku could deflect, resist and hit blows on Freeza?
Simple, because Freeza restrained himself. He used only a small part of his power to deal with Goku (he even got scratched by it).

I'm not saying this is the same case between Goku and Boo, but the fact that Boo hit him for having caught him off guard does not mean much about the power difference between them

Actually that isnt what happened. King kai in the manga said Goku was always using kkx10 vs Freeza when Tien said that Goku is doing so well, so with kaioken he will win easily. Most likely, base Goku is in the range of Fit Mr Buu.

Goku was most definitely not always using x10 Kaioken .
Goku started using x10 Kaioken after Freeza started using 50% of his power.
Goku was doing what TheSaiyanGod said, before that.

Even then, how does that negate his point?

[TheSaiyanGod]

But Goku was not hurt.

He was hurt because he said he was hurt, not to mention he proceeded to compliment Buu on how "amazing" he supposedly was. I'm not gonna start assuming he was just being modest because there's nothing to indicate that at all.

Judging from the rest of your post, you seem to be under the impression that I'm trying to make an argument about the difference in power between Slim Buu and base Goku specifically. I'm not. Like you said, the scene leaves us with no way of comparing the two since it was nothing more than a friendly sparring match and neither of them appeared to be super serious.

What I'm saying is that it's a stark contrast from the scene in which Gotenks couldn't even so much as budge Copy Vegeta who wasn't even trying himself, yet Gotenks is considerably stronger than Majin Buu. There are only three ways to avoid a contradiction here: 1. We assume that there's been a retcon of some kind, 2. We assume that two bases exist in the Super anime as supplementary material for the RoF film suggests, or 3. We assume that Slim Buu is comfortably stronger than both Fat Buu and Super Buu. If we go with either of the first two options, we'd have to admit that base Goku is ordinarily not on par with Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks.

He at no time says he's hurt. He just says that Boo is incredible for having managed to create a strategy at that very moment and beat Goku. And we does not just have the example of Copy Vegeta and Gotenks SSJ3. In the FNF arc, Freeza in the first form defeated Gohan with a punch, and the Saiyajin was at least at the Cell Second Form level (considering the ease with which Freeza did this, he was much stronger).If your power multiplies to each form , It would make sense that in the final form, Freeza also defeated Gotenks SSJ3 or someone superior (Gohan still wanted Gotenks not to fight with Freeza). And Goku in the base form was superior to these Freeza. In fact, at times, the power of Goku's base form was contradictory, but I do not see why it's not so strong. If Slim Boo is superior to Gotenks SSJ3, then this only reinforces what I said

I feel like you're moving the goalposts here. Buu never had the intention to seriously injure Goku and I'm not saying that either of them were going all-out -- it's just a sparring match. The point is that Buu was capable of catching him off-guard, hurting him (as Goku himself plainly admitted) and performing well enough that Goku was also amazed by Buu's strength. The latter two facts in particular would certainly be implausible if base Goku was significantly stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks who was significantly stronger than Super Buu who was significantly stronger than Majin Buu. That idea doesn't mesh with what we were shown.

I agree that neither Goku nor Boo were fighting with all power.
But Goku was not hurt.
And the power difference does not have to be small so that one can trade punches with the other.

Just to have a parameter, let's use the fighting powers shown in some guides.

Goku in the fight against Freeza (in Namek) had 3 million.
Freeza, only with HALF of his power had 60 million.

But as at the beginning of the fight, everyone who was watching thought that Goku and Freeza were on the same level? Because Goku could deflect, resist and hit blows on Freeza?
Simple, because Freeza restrained himself. He used only a small part of his power to deal with Goku (he even got scratched by it).

I'm not saying this is the same case between Goku and Boo, but the fact that Boo hit him for having caught him off guard does not mean much about the power difference between them

Actually that isnt what happened. King kai in the manga said Goku was always using kkx10 vs Freeza when Tien said that Goku is doing so well, so with kaioken he will win easily. Most likely, base Goku is in the range of Fit Mr Buu.

Goku only started using the Kaioken from the middle of the fight (as was said above). Freeza himself said that Goku was still hiding his power (at that time, everyone thought Freeza and Goku had the same level, so he would not have Because using the technique)

[Marlowe89]

He at no time says he's hurt.

He certainly does.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Please note that before you start quibbling over meaningless semantics such as how much or how little Goku was actually harmed by saying "Ow" repeatedly, that objection would be missing the point entirely.

If Slim Boo is superior to Gotenks SSJ3, then this only reinforces what I said

To be more precise it's the only thing that can actually support what you said, otherwise you'd have to assume that Gotenks is still superior to Slim Buu which conflicts with the Copy Vegeta scene. Goku just says "You're faster and you've got that power!" though, which implies that his speed improved while his power remained the same.

[TheSaiyanGod]

He at no time says he's hurt.

He certainly does.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Please note that before you start quibbling over meaningless semantics such as how much or how little Goku was actually harmed by saying "Ow" repeatedly, that objection would be missing the point entirely.

If Slim Boo is superior to Gotenks SSJ3, then this only reinforces what I said

To be more precise it's the only thing that can actually support what you said, otherwise you'd have to assume that Gotenks is still superior to Slim Buu which conflicts with the Copy Vegeta scene. Goku just says "You're faster and you've got that power!" though, which implies that his speed improved while his power remained the same.

I never said he did not feel pain ....
In fact, it was exactly what I said in an earlier post.

When I say wounded, I mean being scratched, dirty and bruised (DBS only has blood sometimes, so that's all we have).
Not to mention that soon after he rises without any problem. If he was in a real battle with Boo, this would not be anything that would prevent him from fighting

If Goku said '' then you have THAT power '' it's because he was somehow impressed with Boo's power, as if he had indeed increased.

Even though it might be an exaggeration to get Boo so strong with a few hours of training, it would make sense considering he was able to trade punches with Boo while Gotenks could not do anything against Vegeta.
Although, as we have seen, the two were holding back, so we can not say

[Marlowe89]

I never said he did not feel pain ....
In fact, it was exactly what I said in an earlier post.

When I say wounded, I mean being scratched, dirty and bruised (DBS only has blood sometimes, so that's all we have).

You're saying "wounded", I'm simply saying "harmed" which is much more broad in its colloquial usage and can simply mean inflicting physical pain.

This is exactly what I mean when I say you're either moving the goalposts or resorting to empty semantics. The objections you keep raising have absolutely nothing to do with anything I'm telling you, and at no point was I trying to establish that Goku was wounded or severely injured. If you're not sure what point I'm trying to make, I urge you to go back and reread my previous posts until you get it.

If Goku said '' then you have THAT power '' it's because he was somehow impressed with Boo's power, as if he had indeed increased.

"You've got that power" doesn't mean "I'm impressed with your power", it's just referring to a specific level of strength (i.e. "THAT" power) that Goku is familiar with.

If Buu was faster and stronger, Goku simply would have said so. The statement, however, appears to be insinuating that Buu increased his speed without sacrificing any power in the process.

[ChiefWamsutta]

Wow, haha, boy do we argue over silly stuff.

Anyways, so I made a power level list of all the known characters from DBSuper.

I would like to preface this by saying I use the theory that in Battle of Gods Goku became a SSGod. After he dropped out of red hair, he was in SS1 but I label it as Semi-merged Super Saiyan God. Once he turned into Base and got stronger it was Merged Super Saiyan God.

This black-haired god form, I believe, fought Frieza in RoF, fought Copy-Vegeta, fought Monaka-Beerus, and fought Slim Buu.

If you are comfortable with entertaining this idea that is in my power level list, please view it. If you cannot move past this, I politely ask you to pass this by. I would prefer to keep the discussion constructive.

It is almost completed. I will be posting it soon.

[TheSaiyanGod]

I never said he did not feel pain ....
In fact, it was exactly what I said in an earlier post.

When I say wounded, I mean being scratched, dirty and bruised (DBS only has blood sometimes, so that's all we have).

You're saying "wounded", I'm simply saying "harmed" which is much more broad in its colloquial usage and can simply mean inflicting physical pain.

This is exactly what I mean when I say you're either moving the goalposts or resorting to empty semantics. The objections you keep raising have absolutely nothing to do with anything I'm telling you, and at no point was I trying to establish that Goku was wounded or severely injured. If you're not sure what point I'm trying to make, I urge you to go back and reread my previous posts until you get it.

If Goku said '' then you have THAT power '' it's because he was somehow impressed with Boo's power, as if he had indeed increased.

"You've got that power" doesn't mean "I'm impressed with your power", it's just referring to a specific level of strength (i.e. "THAT" power) that Goku is familiar with.

If Buu was faster and stronger, Goku simply would have said so. The statement, however, appears to be insinuating that Buu increased his speed without sacrificing any power in the process.

Understand how you want the fact that Goku is "wounded." The example I gave of Goku and Freeza in Namek shows that this does not mean anything considering that the two were holding

Since when was it said that Boo's speed was impaired by his physique? On the contrary, he was ruthless at the beginning of the Boo Saga

And Goku speaks '' this power '' does not indicate at any time that it is the power he was familiarized. If he were, he would not even have quoted his power, only his speed.
In DB, as power increases, speed increases (not in the same proportion, but increases), unless Boo did a specific workout to increase speed, which would not make much sense(He get thin does not mean anything, because even being fat did not influence his speed)

[Freeza9000]

According to the NEP, it most likely seems like Sidra is capable of launching attacks from universes. In which Freeza blocks that attack with ease.

[Lord Frieza]

According to the NEP, it most likely seems like Sidra is capable of launching attacks from universes. In which Freeza blocks that attack with ease.

Would that pretty much confirm him to be the weakest or at the lower end of the GoD spectrum? Good kami if U9 are good at anything its lowering the bar.

I hope that dog assassin is not part of their team, while he aint dead he's hurt and Frieza took him out effortlessly.....lowering the bar U9, lowering the bar.

[Marlowe89]

Anyways, so I made a power level list of all the known characters from DBSuper.

I would like to preface this by saying I use the theory that in Battle of Gods Goku became a SSGod. After he dropped out of red hair, he was in SS1 but I label it as Semi-merged Super Saiyan God. Once he turned into Base and got stronger it was Merged Super Saiyan God.

This black-haired god form, I believe, fought Frieza in RoF, fought Copy-Vegeta, fought Monaka-Beerus, and fought Slim Buu.

If you are comfortable with entertaining this idea that is in my power level list, please view it. If you cannot move past this, I politely ask you to pass this by. I would prefer to keep the discussion constructive.

It is almost completed. I will be posting it soon.

I'm probably going to post mine soon as well, perhaps a few days before the first tournament episode airs. I was forced to guesstimate for some of the characters that weren't given much clarification in regards to placement, which is annoying but not terribly surprising considering it's the anime we're talking about.

Definitely curious to see where people are placing Fat Buu.

[Noah]

If Freeza needs 'Golden' do deal with a bunch of scrubs from Universe 9, I guess those are somewhat stronger than SSJ3 Boo arc Goku or Gotenks, right?

[TheSaiyanGod]

If Freeza needs 'Golden' do deal with a bunch of scrubs from Universe 9, I guess those are somewhat stronger than SSJ3 Boo arc Goku or Gotenks, right?

Goku was fighting them in base form in the preview.
I do not think they are that strong.

Freeza only became Golden Freeza for the scene to become visually more beautiful

[Noah]

Freeza only became Golden Freeza for the scene to become visually more beautiful

Either way shouldn't that be overkill?

[Doctor.]

Freeza only became Golden Freeza for the scene to become visually more beautiful

Either way shouldn't that be overkill?

It's Freeza. He's either letting loose after so much time spent trapped or he's taking this chance to see if he can gain a better control over his Golden form.