Why are people complaining about Universe 6 Saiyans??

[GodKaio-Ken]

The way I see it is this..

Anything can be written in a way that is "acceptable" or "makes enough sense" but that doesn't mean it should be done. Maybe there is a reason these Saiyans can go SSJ so fast...but to fans it just generally feels like another Genki Dama Sword Dues Ex Machina to explain how U6 will compete when we already saw their 5 "best" previously.

[Ki Breaker]

The way I see it is this..

Anything can be written in a way that is "acceptable" or "makes enough sense" but that doesn't mean it should be done. Maybe there is a reason these Saiyans can go SSJ so fast...but to fans it just generally feels like another Genki Dama Sword Dues Ex Machina to explain how U6 will compete when we already saw their 5 "best" previously.

If they spent 20 seconds more with cauliflowa sitting down and trying hard like Videl did and suddenly going SS that would have been so much better..

The way it played out was,
" I get tingly feeling up my asshole make SS, you're way sacks ya all dumb "

Needless to say, this isn't an acceptable way for a transformation to play out, first transformation in itself is a big thing and should be given better treatment

[TysonWine]

And you're right, it is nostalgia. Nostalgia for some sensible and satisfying writing regarding transformations that is, which Super has yet to receive.

It's nostalgia mixed with hypocrisy when Goten/kid Trunks had no valid reasons to became SSJ and you conveniently leave that out.

This argument of "Well what about Goten and Trunks!?" is simply a non-argument. Every single time someone complains about the transformations in Super, it's always somehow assumed that they also think Goten & Trunks' transformations were perfectly okay too, Except I never said that, and almost anyone else making this argument has probably never said that either.

You're arguing against a position no one is taking. If you have a problem with how Goten & Trunks achieved super saiyan, you should have a problem with how Caulifla obtained SSJ2 too. If not, then I'll borrow a word that you used - hypocrisy.

Ironically enough though Goten & Trunk's transformations were better than Caulifla's SSJ2 because at least for Goten & Trunks' transformations, Gohan/Vegeta reacted to them and commented on them. Caulifla got nothing. Her transformation was played as if it was something we'd all seen her do before, and something the other characters (Well I guess just Cabba) had already seen before too. No biggie, just magically obtaining Super Saiyan forms out of nowhere for no reason and played as if it's something completely natural and normal. Like I said I was fine with her SSJ transformation, but this SSJ2 transformation was simply abysmal. I'm not even against giving her SSJ2, just the way in which it was handled was awful and nonsensical.

I've noticed this in every discussion about U6 Saiyans. If you don't like the transformations, it's always "What about Goten and Trunks!?!?!?" It's irritating because like you said, there's an assumption that we loved the way Goten and Trunks got SSJ. Valid criticisms are being reduced to a DBZ vs Super bias and that's not the case. The reason you "conveniently left that out," is because it's irrelevant to your criticisms of U6 transformations.

Caulifla's SSJ2 transformation was handed badly because of how fast she got it and the lack of reaction. In a lot of fiction works, the genius trope is played to have one or two individuals be extraordinarily outstanding. This is fine, but Dragon ball has played that card too many times. So, is Caulifla a Super Genius X10? As far as the reaction goes, there should've been one, regardless of them not knowing the name of the transformation or its existence before hand. Actually, that should illicit even more of a reaction. Someone getting 50x stronger in an instant should warrant a "WTF did you do?"

[Xeztin]

I don't like their designs to be honest, they all look like stick figures. I'm not saying they have to be Teen Gohan buff but being pure breed Saiyans should have some effect on muscle mass evil or not. Cabba is just a tool to upgrade universe 6 Saiyans, Kale is a Broly rip off should have been Broly himself if they were going to go that far. Cauliflowa is ridiculous in terms of power ups. Getting SSJ2 without any effort whatsoever made Goku's struggle and pain from the entire series look mediocre. Other than that it's fine for me. I also want a backstory on Hit that probably won't ever happen

[Shinda Forever]

I don't like their designs to be honest, they all look like stick figures. I'm not saying they have to be Teen Gohan buff but being pure breed Saiyans should have some effect on muscle mass evil or not. Cabba is just a tool to upgrade universe 6 Saiyans, Kale is a Broly rip off should have been Broly himself if they were going to go that far. Cauliflowa is ridiculous in terms of power ups. Getting SSJ2 without any effort whatsoever made Goku's struggle and pain from the entire series look mediocre. Other than that it's fine for me. I also want a backstory on Hit that probably won't ever happen

I agree with everything you said and indeed, Hitto deserved a backstory and more screen time, but, as always they wasted time with 3 lame saiyans.

[SsjCookie]

"Stick-figures" about sums it up.

Seriously, the way they look makes me think they don't know how to draw muscles any more.
Lazy drawing as well as writing.

[SansrivaaL]

Despite my like for Cauli because of her design and her somewhat strong personality (not a fan of tsundere's but she has yet to hit Cabba for no good reason so she's fine for now in my books)
I despise how she reached SSJ with that back sensation BS which only pushed me to the limits of my patience when she clicked SSJ2 outtanowhere, God knows what kind of sensation she had to do to just pop out SSJ2 like its nothing, surely they woulda noticed her ki shot up right? I mean Cabba and Cauli even said they can feel Kale's ki when she went Broly nuts, so why no reaction?
What pisses me off about all this is... Cauli is our very first canon SSJ girl, and they pull it off with a... back.sensation.. God why? because they want to shove it down our throats that she's a genius among geniuses? ok we get it, she's a genius, but did they really had to push it to the level of her going SSJ2?
As for Goten and Trunks I always had the impression that "they're hybrids, maybe thats how they work" and if I remember correctly the manga didnt show how they got the forms so there was also that, its the mystery surrounding it thats keeping me from hating it, but these U6 saiyans are pure blooded saiyans, I know people may say "maybe thats how U6 saiyans work" the same method was used on Cabba and how he transformed was Vegeta threatening him that he'll go full on Namek Vegeta on their planet so I couldnt buy it being unique to U6 saiyans anymore. Its all just bad... why couldnt they just go with Cauli visuallizing something dark? the sheer difference on how our first male SSJ in comparison to our first female SSJ doesnt even compare.

Kale's transformation was handled better but... too much Broly stuffs happened, I wanted something unique for her, not a rip off SheBroly, if they wanted to just show us that "hey, this girl right here? she's our canon LSSJ" we already got the idea when she transformed, they didnt need to do the exact stuffs Broly did back in his movie, now I see Kale even more Broly than Kale, its like she doesnt have her own identity.

[TheMikado]

So, I will be quite honest. I haven't posted much anymore or watched the show as regularly because my distain for it has reached new levels. This in particular is a sore spot for me.
The SSJ form and transformation is arguably what saved the entire franchise for me. I absolutely hated Frieza as a villain and character, but Goku's SSJ transformation and the subsequent transformations kept me interested into the android saga. Without Goku's SSJ transformation I would have dropped Z during the Frieza fight decades ago.

As such my main gripes are as follows:

Cabba: I've been saying this since it happened, but for Cabba to be some type of universe warrior/enforcer, the idea that no enemy has EVER EVER EVER verbally threatened him or his planet, or his family before is incredibly absurd. For him to be around as strong as current base Vegeta, serve in the position of a warrior, and never experienced anger to go SSJ before is incredible bizarre. So why now? Why in a tournament where the Gods of Destruction, who's sole purpose is to destroy unnecessary threats to their universes like what Vegeta was planning to do, would Cabba take the words of someone he knows nothing about, from another universe, and to his knowledge has no means of actually carrying out the threat by getting to his universe, seriously? Basically there was nothing plausible about Vegeta's threat, and there was no real true reason why his threat in particular would be anymore threatening than any other threat he would have experienced. Even when Cabba was walking into Caulifa's hideout he didn't even flinch, so why was that the trigger other than to introduce a new SSJ and plot convenience. What makes it even crazier is that no-one, not even Vados or Whis who have been alive HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF YEARS have ever heard that saiyans can transform despite having a full planet of them. Yet in Universe 7 with a handful of saiyans they have no less than 3-4 different transformations. It completely felt inorganic and like a plot point solely to achieve what the point of making him SSJ.

Caulifa: I wasn't a fan of Chibi Cabba, but I assumed he was young and he reminded me of Vegeta's brother so I rolled with it. I assumed it was simply the design specific to that character. Nope, we now see the whole team is built around Old Navy teen models... I really wanted a Nappa type bruiser from Universe 6 to be a contrast but I guess we are getting that with Kale which I will address later. Anyway, I'm not a fan of her type of personality from what I've seen but that's the least of my concerns. The back thing really cheapened the SSJ experience for me. I will make this very plain and clear for the Goten/Trunks complainers.

THE INITIAL TRANSFORMATION TO SSJ HAS ALWAYS BEEN COMPLETELY INVOLUNTARY.

Even for Trunks and Goten this wasn't something they willed themselves into and it makes scenes like the below completely meaningless.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXY7sayP8rY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xi6gRoILKKs

Further, when Trunks and Goten go SSJ, EVERYONE IN-UNIVERSE IS SHOCKED. It's not played off as a normal or expected behavior. It is a known unbelievable situation by every character.
This is a complete a total change from a character who literally JUST heard about the ability and within the span of a few hours has achieved SSJ2.... through a tingling in her back. It makes everything that Future Trunks and Gohan suffer through to first achieve the form lose its weight and meaning. Look having a female SSJ is great and all, but this is not the way to do it. She deserves better than a give away. Let her have real conflict, real struggle, real adversity, and real empowerment and overcoming it. This does nothing, in my opinion to give her character meaning and presence. All it says is "Hey she's a female saiyan, lets give he SSJ by not invest any time or effort whatsoever in making a convincing catalyst for this." They are treating the female characters like garbage by not even trying at all.

Kale Let me pre-face this by saying Broly is literally one of my favorite characters. He really and truly is. I've written about the LSSJ form multiple times and how amazingly well written the form was. While I'm happy to see it canonized, I feel this retelling cheapens an already controversial character. I have no issue with them applying the form to another character. HOWEVER, if you are going to claim or make the case for ARTISTIC SUPERIORITY, then please, please do not make a basically carbon copy of the original work and try to pass it off as some grand inspired work. The usage of the visuals, moveset, personality, and even regurgitated lines is vomit inducing even as a fan of the original. There is nothing of artistic value or originality here. You have literally taken an established work and passed it off as a cheap imitation while making only slight alterations to the original concept. What exactly is this achieving other than fan-service or pure laziness? If not both. If you want to take the LSSJ concept and re-apply it, fine. Just at LEAST put in the bare minimum effort to make the concept yours.


Anyway, long story short the universe 6 saiyans represent a long list of issues for me. The characters are incredibly lazily conceived in their concepts and motives. They are given the effort they deserve for the significance they possess. I am actually fine with their chibi designs although its not my preference. However, just like so much of Super it alters our understanding or pre-existing lore and presents only half conceived ideas which aren't given the time and effort they deserve to be fully developed.

[Torturephile]

Others have reiterated my thoughts on previous posts, but I'll add something of my own:

-Cabba: I recall he went from being click-bait material on YouTube that he was a she and would turn Blue and demolish Vegeta in the U6 tournament. Now he's treated as a loser in and out-universe. Like others said, while he has a good dynamic with Vegeta, a highlight of the U6 tournament, he doesn't have a lucid individual personality much to keep me interested in him enough. He's just there to get the plot going. I'm also not a fan of his skinny design. It could be said U6 saiyans are drawn differently to differentiate from U7 ones, but then there's Renso, who resembles an U7 saiyan.

-Caulifla: she became one of my favorite characters in the show until after she became a super saiyan. I do like her punk personality and her design, but I find her a waste of a good character as there has been not much depth added to her to stand out for me in the long term, depth that could lead to some interesting internal or external struggles, and instead she's handed two super saiyan transformations because she's a "genius" despite there's no other evidence of things she's done in the past that could support such thing, other than a potential we were informed about. Things like this is why I was glad she and the other U6 saiyan didn't appear in episode 94. My biggest concern with her is the lack of motivation and how she didn't care about her universe's destruction (an issue shared with other characters).

-Kale: I'm one of those who never liked Broly (particularly in the second and third movie), and I hoped Kale would be different. She could have a better backstory and perhaps a bipolar disorder or something worse than what Broly had. My biggest fear was what became reality: she's a copy and paste of Broly with minimal differences asides from being genderbent. I get it, this was their ticket to canonize Broly, but to me it was a huge waste of potential.

[SaiyanGod117]

she didn't care about her universe's destruction (an issue shared with other characters).

Honestly, I don't know what the writers are going for with this lol it makes no sense, it's just bad writing.

[dbs fanboy]

I'm not that bothered by them. I do wish they weren't so skinny though. I've seen some amazing fanart of the universe 6 saiyans with body builds more similar to universe 7 saiyans (think saiyan arc and namek arc Toriyama body builds) and I prefer that styling so much more than what we have.

Off topic but could you give me a link?

By the way, i don't have any issues with them, except for Kale, but that's out of fear that she won't have any development or personality.
I like Caulifla personality wise and i think it makes sense why is she able to tap into the power so easily,she's a prodigy who in base is comparable to Cabba who was as strong as Vegeta, and Cabba just taught her the way he transformed after his first time and she just skipped stage 1. But still it's annoying, yeah it makes sense but it doesn't feel right, just like Goten and Trunks transforming.

[precita]

I absolutely hated Frieza as a villain and character, but Goku's SSJ transformation and the subsequent transformations kept me interested into the android saga. Without Goku's SSJ transformation I would have dropped Z during the Frieza fight decades ago.
.

Out of curiosity why do you hate Freeza so much, since I've seen you mention this in many threads? You really hated him that much that you almost considered quitting the franchise? Was it his character, the way he was portrayed? I don't really get it, because his role in the overall story and the way he interacted with the main cast is what made him so popular for years.

[MajinMan]

I have no issue with the tingly back explanation. What I do wish they did instead was replace the word "tingly" with something less silly sounding. I think that's why it seems so weird and stupid to some people. In reality, it borrows from martial arts a lot with the whole concentrating energy on a single point idea. And it's not like EVERYONE can do it first try with that method, only people who are gifted and strong enough like Caulifla can. Kale completely failed when she tried. And Cabba even states "it's actually not that easy" during episode 93.

Explanations ARE given, they make sense, there is no plot hole, but some people will still complain. I understand that they didn't work as hard as our characters did, but at the same time they are shown to be much stronger than U7 Saiyans are. Why do they HAVE to go through the same experience as our main cast? Why do they NEED to struggle? That's not the story that Toriyama is creating with these characters. They aren't meant to be additions to the cast. They are clearly here for fanservice and to give our characters a good fight. I don't want another melodramatic, boring and predictable moment like when Future Gohan died in the anime special, just to "justify" Caulifla's transformation. Super Saiyan is not special anymore. Goten and Trunks got it when they were 7 and 8 years old. This is nothing new.

[TheMikado]

I absolutely hated Frieza as a villain and character, but Goku's SSJ transformation and the subsequent transformations kept me interested into the android saga. Without Goku's SSJ transformation I would have dropped Z during the Frieza fight decades ago.
.

Out of curiosity why do you hate Freeza so much, since I've seen you mention this in many threads? You really hated him that much that you almost considered quitting the franchise? Was it his character, the way he was portrayed? I don't really get it, because his role in the overall story and the way he interacted with the main cast is what made him so popular for years.

Initially it was the funi voice and general personality. I really didn't enjoy the Frieza fight mostly because of his arrogant and bratty personality. Plus that was a looooong fight and I was losing interest fast due to the constant power ups Frieza was getting. The combination of those things started to bore me as the fight wore on and I was losing interest. I just plan didn't like the villain and wasn't interested in seeing him defeated solely because he was a jerk. For me, I enjoyed watching them fight well trained and invested opponents rather than spoiled abnormally powered up brats. This is also the same reason I disliked the androids in general but liked Cell because he went through some effort to achieve his perfect form.

Anyway SSJ saved me and kept me interested. Without it I would have dropped the franchise during the Frieza fight and lost interest due to it carrying on so long on something I wasn't enjoying. Freeza's further ticked me off when he decides to blow up planets when he's losing and literally came back with his dad like a spoiled school kid. There's nothing satisfying for me to watch this spoiled brat wield power he didn't earn and getting spanked over and over again. For me I want to watch seasoned and disciplined fighters go at it, not some brat get a spanking.

Anyway, I disliked Frieza from the start but each reappearance made it worse for me. It why I literally stopped posted on this forum lately. I stopped watching Super as much since it's harder for me to enjoy it now and I don't have much to contribute outside of hating hating hating the Frieza thing so I've decided to say nothing.

Ironically I like Cell, Super Buu, and Cooler a lot more. Cooler is my second favorite villain and personality wise he is the anti thesis of Frieza. I'd trade Cooler for Frieza any day.

[Chuquita]

I'm not that bothered by them. I do wish they weren't so skinny though. I've seen some amazing fanart of the universe 6 saiyans with body builds more similar to universe 7 saiyans (think saiyan arc and namek arc Toriyama body builds) and I prefer that styling so much more than what we have.

Off topic but could you give me a link?

By the way, i don't have any issues with them, except for Kale, but that's out of fear that she won't have any development or personality.
I like Caulifla personality wise and i think it makes sense why is she able to tap into the power so easily,she's a prodigy who in base is comparable to Cabba who was as strong as Vegeta, and Cabba just taught her the way he transformed after his first time and she just skipped stage 1. But still it's annoying, yeah it makes sense but it doesn't feel right, just like Goten and Trunks transforming.

There's several, but the one off the top of my head is http://finalassflash.tumblr.com . The art is stylized, but the body proportions are much more classic Toriyama instead of modern Toriyama. Pixiv should also have some.

[Kanious]

some people just didn't liked them, some others can't accept new things and will whine about everything...

i loved the U6 saiyans, and to be sincere... i prefer them over the saiyans of U7. They are not barbarians/primitive, they live in peace and they has an elite force which fights to defend planets, i liked their designs, everything... i just found the transformations too rushed. I would complain if they transformed to SSR/SSB without training, not SSJ/LSSJ/SSJ2.

I wish Akira would make a manga about them, i want to see their backstories