Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.
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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GodKaio-Ken » Mon Jun 12, 2017 3:57 pm

Bullza wrote:If it does get debunked then the other theory that Goku just holds back as much as the plot calls for it would hold merit.

He couldn't be at Saiyan Beyond God levels and then spar evenly with Base Gohan twice, a Gohan who up until recently didn't even have his Ultimate Gohan power from back when he fought Buu. So there's either two Bases or he really does severely hold back depending on who he is fighting.
Personally I feel its been incredibly obvious he back. He could have easily killed Krillin IMO in their spar with his blast. He even SAID he was holding back against 17.

Why is this even debatable?
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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Mon Jun 12, 2017 3:58 pm

DBZ Macky wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote:It seems Sidra can send blasts from a different universe and Freeza apparently won't be harmed by them. Looking forward to this fight.
Nah, it was just the crystal ball that looks like the blast. If you look closely, both of his hands are down. I think the Doggo Assassin just gets a good surprise attack in on Freeza, and it's so huge that Sidra's crystal ball just lights up and shit.

Also, as much as I like it for adding a little more sense to the series' power-scaling, I have a strong feeling that the "2-base" theory will be completely debunked in just a few more episodes.
I do not think the explosion is from the crystal ball.

Sidra really has his hands down, but the crystal ball is on the white table, above a purple backing.
The purple energy sphere is off the white table, and expanding into a much larger size than the crystal ball.

I really thought Sidra would attack Freeza. I thought that would be related to his goal shift (as was said in FujiTV's preview), but I'm not sure.
Or maybe he attacks too.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ChiefWamsutta » Tue Jun 13, 2017 1:09 am

DBZ Macky wrote:
ChiefWamsutta wrote:Wow, haha, boy do we argue over silly stuff.

Anyways, so I made a power level list of all the known characters from DBSuper.

I would like to preface this by saying I use the theory that in Battle of Gods Goku became a SSGod. After he dropped out of red hair, he was in SS1 but I label it as Semi-merged Super Saiyan God. Once he turned into Base and got stronger it was Merged Super Saiyan God.

This black-haired god form, I believe, fought Frieza in RoF, fought Copy-Vegeta, fought Monaka-Beerus, and fought Slim Buu.

If you are comfortable with entertaining this idea that is in my power level list, please view it. If you cannot move past this, I politely ask you to pass this by. I would prefer to keep the discussion constructive.

It is almost completed. I will be posting it soon.
I'd love to see your list. :thumbup:
Thanks very much. :) Yeah, I will have it ready by Episode 96. I am just waiting to see how things play out before the tournament since it is a good spot to finalize an update. Then I can change it as the tourney goes.
Bullza wrote:If it does get debunked then the other theory that Goku just holds back as much as the plot calls for it would hold merit.

He couldn't be at Saiyan Beyond God levels and then spar evenly with Base Gohan twice, a Gohan who up until recently didn't even have his Ultimate Gohan power from back when he fought Buu. So there's either two Bases or he really does severely hold back depending on who he is fighting.
To be honest, I don't think we will ever clearly see the strong Base again. However, that might just mean Goku doesn't want to use it. In fact, he has only used SS3 once after the Super Saiyan God ritual.

I see it as ... he has Base, SS1, SS2, SS3, SbG, SSBlue, SSBlue KK. He chooses to use Base, SS1, SSBlue, SSBlue KK, and very rarely SS2.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Desassina » Tue Jun 13, 2017 8:10 am

The manga has been more consistent, but the anime is simply not showing the characters powering up in their regular form, and so we're left wondering whether Goku is stronger all around or not. It was confusing when he turned SSJ against Frost when the same form was used against Beerus and then base against Freeza. In my opinion, SSJ works its way up towards SSJB, with SSJG shortening the gap between their base and SSJB in the manga. In case one character decides to mutate to strengthen himself, by using SSJ2 and SSJ3, then they will have reached God power in that form by acquiring a blue aura, hence Trunks' SSJ Ikari, for example. "Mutators" lock their base transformation unlike SSJ. Kaioken strengthened Goku by locking SSJ Blue.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Tue Jun 13, 2017 10:46 am

The manga has definitely been a lot better off for the most part.

I would still think the two bases is the much more likely explanation for the anime. I definitely don't see Base Goku as being Super Saiyan God level and then him then getting tens of times stronger still as Zamasu put it when he turns Super Saiyan.

Theres no way that I can believe Super Saiyan 3 Goku is 400 times stronger than Super Saiyan God. Them being closer to their Buu saga selves in regular forms makes more sense with some fights they've had with Frost, Gohan, Trunks, Krillin etc.

Still if it is a thing and Toei know it's a thing then it's mind boggling that they wouldn't explain that.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by DBZ Macky » Tue Jun 13, 2017 10:54 am

Bullza wrote:The manga has definitely been a lot better off for the most part.
As someone who's currently working on a DBS Manga battle powers list, I'll have to disagree with you. completely.

Or maybe you can help me out?
1. How was SS Goku performing better than <10% SSB Vegeta against Hit?
2. So, who was really stronger. SS3 Goku or SS Trunks?
3. How in the hell did SS Vegeta not only defeat Base Goku Black but also SS Goku Black, despite the latter being more than 50x stronger than SS3 Goku?

Sheesh, at least in the Anime, you can make a coherent scale by having 2 bases. In the Manga, I can't even fucking decipher what Super Saiyan's "multiplier" is supposed to be. I ended up with 5 different multipliers for the same f'kin form. That is not supposed to happen. I challenge all of y'all to make a DBS Manga powar levuls list.
Jinzoningen MULE wrote:You're in the DB community, it's always a power level thread to someone.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Tue Jun 13, 2017 12:09 pm

DBZ Macky wrote: 1. How was SS Goku performing better than <10% SSB Vegeta against Hit?
2. So, who was really stronger. SS3 Goku or SS Trunks?
3. How in the hell did SS Vegeta not only defeat Base Goku Black but also SS Goku Black, despite the latter being more than 50x stronger than SS3 Goku?
Well Goku was familiar with Hit's techniques and knew what was required to put up a fight. Vegeta had no idea what the hell was going on and was stomped because of it. Both in the manga and the anime they had Base Goku put up a better fight against Hit for that reason.

You mean SSJ2 Trunks? They were supposed to be even going by Vegeta's words. He trained a little with Vegeta in the Gravity Room so maybe after he had the edge.

Well it would seem that Vegeta kept his mutated SSJ2 form from when he fought Beerus. We saw Beerus beat the tar out of SSJ3 Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan (if it's actually meant to be Ultimate Gohan or not anymore). So SSJ2 Vegeta should be getting up there for Super Vegito levels. That'd be why he could beat SSJ Black.
I challenge all of y'all to make a DBS Manga powar levuls list.
My body isn't ready for such a task but I could do the simplified version of if Goku is a 10 and SSJ Goku is a 500 and try it that way. I don't think it'd be too hard.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by DBZ Macky » Tue Jun 13, 2017 12:38 pm

Bullza wrote:
I challenge all of y'all to make a DBS Manga powar levuls list.
My body isn't ready for such a task but I could do the simplified version of if Goku is a 10 and SSJ Goku is a 500 and try it that way. I don't think it'd be too hard.
Sure, I'd like to see the simplified version if you can try.
Jinzoningen MULE wrote:You're in the DB community, it's always a power level thread to someone.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Tue Jun 13, 2017 3:42 pm

DBZ Macky wrote:Sure, I'd like to see the simplified version if you can try.
I had a go it's actually harder that I thought.

[spoiler]Battle of Gods

Goku – 8
SSJ Goku – 400
SSJ2 Goku – 800
SSJ3 Goku – 3,200
SSJG Goku – 1,800,000

Vegeta – 8
SSJ Vegeta – 400
SSJ2 Vegeta - 800
Enraged SSJ2 Vegeta – 250,000

SSJ3 Gotenks – 20,000

Vegito – 3,750
SSJ Vegito – 187,500
SSJ2 Vegito – 375,000
SSJ3 Vegito – 1,500,000

Beerus – 2,000,000,000
Whis – 3,000,000,000

Golden Frieza – 4,400,000

Universe 6

Goku – 10
SSJ Goku – 500
SSJ2 Goku – 1,000
SSJ3 Goku – 4,000
SSJG Goku – 2,250,000
SSJB Goku – 4,500,000

Vegeta – 10
SSJ Vegeta – 500
SSJB Vegeta – 4,500,000
SSJB Vegeta (10%) – 450,000

Good Buu – 1,000
Piccolo – 350

Botamo - 1

Frost First Form – 2
Frost Third Form – 8
Frost Final Form – 400

Magetta – 450

Cabba – 10
SSJ Cabba – 500

Hit – 3,800,000

Future Trunks

Goku – 10
SSJ Goku – 500
SSJ2 Goku – 1,000
SSJ3 Goku – 4,000
SSJG Goku – 2,250,000
SSJB Goku – 4,500,000
100% SSJB Goku – 7,000,000

Vegeta – 10
SSJ Vegeta – 500
SSJ2 Vegeta – 310,000
SSJG Vegeta – 2,250,000
SSJB Vegeta – 4,500,000
100% SSJB Vegeta - 7,000,000

SSJB Vegito – 2,100,000,000

Trunks – 10
SSJ Trunks – 500
SSJ2 Trunks – 4,000

Black – 5,000
SSJ Black – 250,000
SSJ Black (Zenkai) – 1,500,000
SSJR Black – 5,600,000

Zamasu – 450

Merged Zamasu – 7,000,000[/spoiler]

Perhaps something like that. SSJG needs to be above a hypothetical SSJ Vegito so that can give you an idea but the problem is there's no indication (across any media) that gives a good idea of how strong SSJB is supposed to be in comparison to it, so I just made it double. As it constantly loses power it'd be impossible to put a proper fixed number to it.

It's high enough that the ~10% SSJB Vegeta is still higher than the Enraged SSJ2 Vegeta who should be well over 50x stronger than SSJ3 Goku.

There was an enormous difference between SSJ Vegito and SSJ Goku in the Buu saga that should be true for the difference between SSJB Vegito and Goku too and Beerus is maybe weaker, so I didn't put him too far off from SSJB Vegito.

SSJ Black should be weaker than SSJG Goku because his hair only went Rose upon surpassing SSJG.

Zamasu isn't very high, he may even be too high but that's just from raw power. With his tricks he's more dangerous than his power level suggests.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ssbgoku » Wed Jun 14, 2017 4:51 am

Bullza wrote:Perhaps something like that. SSJG needs to be above a hypothetical SSJ Vegito so that can give you an idea but the problem is there's no indication (across any media) that gives a good idea of how strong SSJB is supposed to be in comparison to it, so I just made it double. As it constantly loses power it'd be impossible to put a proper fixed number to it.

It's high enough that the ~10% SSJB Vegeta is still higher than the Enraged SSJ2 Vegeta who should be well over 50x stronger than SSJ3 Goku.

There was an enormous difference between SSJ Vegito and SSJ Goku in the Buu saga that should be true for the difference between SSJB Vegito and Goku too and Beerus is maybe weaker, so I didn't put him too far off from SSJB Vegito.

SSJ Black should be weaker than SSJG Goku because his hair only went Rose upon surpassing SSJG.

Zamasu isn't very high, he may even be too high but that's just from raw power. With his tricks he's more dangerous than his power level suggests.
This is what I thought out at first when battle of gods in anime was animated, however now I have heavy doubts about true intention of writters about how powerfull characters really were in bog and how big gap really were. My doubts are based on gohan not getting to ultimate gohan buu arc level until recently which scale everyone comparing to previous gohan(rof, bog arc) down.

Of course SSG is above SS Vegetto, which make it really hard to swallow and make working now, as back then goku even as ss3 was at least 25 times weaker then ss vegetto. If gap between super buu and buu fusions versions were dimnished in the end or retcooned but also there would be need to low ball how ss vegetto is high above buuhan, then at the least I see ss vegetto being 10 times stronger then ss3 goku from kid buu battle. If we go this route then we can make ssg at least 10 x multiplier at the top of ss3 goku, but due to goku stating even fusion wouldn't work against expected beerus full power (stop being fooled that goku believed that what beerus has shown would make goku believe this is fp of beerus. Also Goku said perhaps which means goku knows ss vegetto would have change at least beating this heavily supressed beerus, but He knows beerus had more to him then that.)

Again disagree with Enraged ss2 vegeta being 50 times stronger then ss3 goku. It sounds not just completly ridiculous, but wrong too. I mean Only both goku and master Roshi commented how Vegeta temporarily supressed ss3 goku bog arc, which makes me believe Enraged ss2 vegeta could be from 1.5 to 5 times stronger then ss3 goku if we include rage, because without of it I see at the most 2 times stronger. Also proof is that goku has never said or hinted "oh vegeta, you really supressed even our power of fusion from back then" and we know he has watched this battle while staying hidden.

Going by my assumption and low balling some characters(to keep it consistent and keep in mind beerus's ceiling power was rectonned to how high it need to be):

ss3 full power goku - 1
bog ultimate gohan - 1.5
bog ss3 full power goku - 3
buu arc ultimate gohan - 4
havily supressed beerus - 4
Enraged ss2 vegeta - 5
buuhan - 6
buu arc ss vegetto - 10
false ritual ssg goku - 15
bog arc ss vegetto(hypothetical) - 20
supressed beerus (10%) - 40
ssg goku - 60

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed Jun 14, 2017 7:27 am

I think the difference between SS2 Vegeta and SS3 Goku is the most difficult to reconcile, but SS Black wasn't at full power either, at least not until the near-death power-ups from his fight with Vegeta.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Wed Jun 14, 2017 7:47 am

Well in the manga unlike the anime you see Beerus completely manhandle SSJ3 Gotenks and you also see Gohan on his knees and he has the Ultimate Gohan bang.

You'd be right to assume that the Enraged SSJ2 Vegeta surpassed those two. They also didn't say that he'd just surpassed Goku in the manga either.

That said they also didn't say fusion wouldn't be enough to beat Beerus.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Wed Jun 14, 2017 2:38 pm

Bullza wrote:That said they also didn't say fusion wouldn't be enough to beat Beerus.
Goku commented how SSJ God was a World he couldn't even imagine after Beerus asked him how did it felt. Which to me is a statement about it's superiority over any fusion, because Goku should be able to imagine an hypothetical SSJ3 Vegetto, even if with a decent margin of error.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ekrolo2 » Wed Jun 14, 2017 3:24 pm

LightBing wrote:
Bullza wrote:That said they also didn't say fusion wouldn't be enough to beat Beerus.
Goku commented how SSJ God was a World he couldn't even imagine after Beerus asked him how did it felt. Which to me is a statement about it's superiority over any fusion, because Goku should be able to imagine an hypothetical SSJ3 Vegetto, even if with a decent margin of error.
Does he say that in the manga? I don't recall anything like that in there.
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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Wed Jun 14, 2017 3:31 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:
LightBing wrote:
Bullza wrote:That said they also didn't say fusion wouldn't be enough to beat Beerus.
Goku commented how SSJ God was a World he couldn't even imagine after Beerus asked him how did it felt. Which to me is a statement about it's superiority over any fusion, because Goku should be able to imagine an hypothetical SSJ3 Vegetto, even if with a decent margin of error.
Does he say that in the manga? I don't recall anything like that in there.
Chapter 4, shortly after Goku transforms.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Basako » Wed Jun 14, 2017 4:43 pm

DBZ Macky wrote:I challenge all of y'all to make a DBS Manga powar levuls list.
Sure, man, challenge accepted! I don't like using numbers, I just put them in order.

Beerus arc:

Beerus > Goku SSG > Vegeta SS2 > Goku SS3 > Gotenks SS3 > Goku SS2 > Goku SS

RoF:

Unseen.

Champa arc:

Goku SSB = Vegeta SSB > Hit > Goku SSG > Goku SS = Vegeta SS > Cabba SS > Magetta > Piccolo > Frost FF > Goku base = Vegeta base > Cabba base > Frost 3F > Frost 1F > Botamo > Monaca

Zamasu arc:

Vegetto SSB > Merged Zamasu > Goku MSSB > Black SSR > Black SS > Goku SSB = Vegeta SSB > Goku SSG = Vegeta SSG > Vegeta SS2 > Black base > Goku SS3 > Trunks SS2 > Goku SS2 > Zamasu > Kibito
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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ssbgoku » Wed Jun 14, 2017 6:24 pm

LightBing wrote:
Bullza wrote:That said they also didn't say fusion wouldn't be enough to beat Beerus.
Goku commented how SSJ God was a World he couldn't even imagine after Beerus asked him how did it felt. Which to me is a statement about it's superiority over any fusion, because Goku should be able to imagine an hypothetical SSJ3 Vegetto, even if with a decent margin of error.
Yes this is true in general about ssg goku being > any fusion (which actually existed/took place in original cannon). There is nothing sugessting that ss2 or ss3 vegetto exists in universe however there is also not even one reason which deny it. Anyway I was talking anime-wise and this line seems to be cut out in opposite to movie.

Also I can not believe for ssg to be such multiplier. I mean for him to be even above hypothetical ss3 vegetto from bog arc he would have to be like 400x times stronger and that even if we have ss3 goku bog arc equal to bog arc base vegetto(hypothetical one)

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by avasatu » Wed Jun 14, 2017 10:27 pm

Does anyone have an idea of much stronger Goku has gotten since he mastered SSG at the end of the Beerus fight in Super, excluding transformations? In other words, can we estimate how much stronger current base Goku (let's say with god essence) vs. immediately post-Beerus fight base Goku (again, with god essence) I'm trying to ascertain a maximum percentage Beerus could have been using during his fight with Goku (provided Goku is still indeed weaker than Beerus), and this is the last piece I need.

I don't want this to be an argument about two base theory or whether or not Goku has the capability to use god-like power in his base form. If you believe that he does or doesn't, and feel inclined to make a point of stating it, please kindly skip over this post instead. :D

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by BlueBasilisk » Wed Jun 14, 2017 10:50 pm

avasatu wrote:Does anyone have an idea of much stronger Goku has gotten since he mastered SSG at the end of the Beerus fight in Super, excluding transformations? In other words, can we estimate how much stronger current base Goku (let's say with god essence) vs. immediately post-Beerus fight base Goku (again, with god essence) I'm trying to ascertain a maximum percentage Beerus could have been using during his fight with Goku (provided Goku is still indeed weaker than Beerus), and this is the last piece I need.
I don't think there's any way to determine just how strong Goku has gotten since then. Whis put Goku and Vegeta through the wringer in episodes 18-23 because he wanted the both of them to get much stronger in a short amount of time, and Goku has done quite a bit of training since then but there's nothing to compare his strength to except for Beerus.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Lord Beerus » Thu Jun 15, 2017 8:02 am

Basako wrote:
DBZ Macky wrote:I challenge all of y'all to make a DBS Manga powar levuls list.
Sure, man, challenge accepted! I don't like using numbers, I just put them in order.

Beerus arc:

Beerus > Goku SSG > Vegeta SS2 > Goku SS3 > Gotenks SS3 > Goku SS2 > Goku SS

RoF:

Unseen.

Champa arc:

Goku SSB = Vegeta SSB > Hit > Goku SSG > Goku SS = Vegeta SS > Cabba SS > Magetta > Piccolo > Frost FF > Goku base = Vegeta base > Cabba base > Frost 3F > Frost 1F > Botamo > Monaca

Zamasu arc:

Vegetto SSB > Merged Zamasu > Goku MSSB > Black SSR > Black SS > Goku SSB = Vegeta SSB > Goku SSG = Vegeta SSG > Vegeta SS2 > Black base > Goku SS3 > Trunks SS2 > Goku SS2 > Zamasu > Kibito
That can't work. Vegeta was using SSJB to kick SSJR Goku Black's ass after his training in the ROSAT.

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