Why the lack of relevant characters in GT doesn't bother me

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LuckyCat
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Re: Why the lack of relevant characters in GT doesn't bother me

Post by LuckyCat » Thu Jun 15, 2017 3:15 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:Vegeta admitted to Goku that he found other things to care about besides his obsession when they fight in the Boo arc, this acceptance following by another by his second stringer role to Goku can reasonably lead to him becoming a far more relaxed warrior. I don't think Vegeta ever stops training but the days of him seemingly spending days and days on end in the gravity room like at the start of the Boo arc are gone. Much like everyone else in the show, Vegeta's chilled out and retired.
Again, nothing from the manga suggests that Vegeta would want to chill out and retire as a warrior. And GT even goes 180 on this at a certain point, bringing Vegeta back to catch up with Goku as a SSJ4. Then there's the obligatory Goku jr. and Vegeta jr. rivalry. What's the point of that even if Goku and Vegeta's score is supposedly long-settled?
ekrolo2 wrote:Hell, even Goku who's the last of the older guard still active is far more melancholy throughout GT, implying that the winding down effect is getting to everyone.
Or there was series fatigue and it leaked into the characterization. GT's ending was somewhat untimely.

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Re: Why the lack of relevant characters in GT doesn't bother me

Post by ekrolo2 » Thu Jun 15, 2017 3:19 pm

LuckyCat wrote:Again, nothing from the manga suggests that Vegeta would want to chill out and retire as a warrior. And GT even goes 180 on this at a certain point, bringing Vegeta back to catch up with Goku as a SSJ4. Then there's the obligatory Goku jr. and Vegeta jr. rivalry. What's the point of that even if Goku and Vegeta's score is supposedly long-settled?
This is kind of the place where I continue to answer something below. I don't doubt that Vegeta's sudden spur to want to catch up to Goku again ties into the thing coming to a close and them wanting to recapture some movie 12 magic by having them fight & fuse to beat the main bad guy.
LuckyCat wrote:Or there was series fatigue and it leaked into the characterization. GT's ending was somewhat untimely.
The melancholy is there from the start so I wouldn't consider the ending as the reason for it, especially because most of pre-Super 17 GT feels pretty natural in the way it progresses and is planned out.
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Re: Why the lack of relevant characters in GT doesn't bother me

Post by Basaku » Thu Jun 15, 2017 7:24 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:Using the argument of "Goku is the main character" as one of the justifications for GT nothing of major note with the rest of the cast is a nonsense excuse. It is possible to have Goku as the main character and have the supporting cast that is relevant to the story as well without major discrepancies to the much heralded battle powers". This isn't a binary decision. It's doesn't have to be one or the other. It can be both. It just takes good writing. It's really not as difficult as a task as the fanbase make it out to be.

Plus, you have bit misunderstanding of the context of the battle powers and some of the plot points in Super.
Pretty much. Uub, Pan, Bra as well as adult Goten/Trunks were practically blank slates the writes could've developed in any direction imaginable and write countless stories for them. The fact that they didn't 'bring anything to the table' was not the characters' fault but the writers' fault.

And that is without even touching the subject of Goku bringing absolutely nothing worthile to the table in GT despite almost exclusive screentime so...

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Re: Why the lack of relevant characters in GT doesn't bother me

Post by Cipher » Fri Jun 16, 2017 12:11 am

I'd like to acknowledge up front that the way GT sort of peters out on a full arc for Pan is a bit unforgivable. Also, give her Super Saiyan for god's sake! That goes for Oob too(b).

But for the rest of the cast? GT indeed simply chooses to not use characters where they aren't needed, and that's fine. Better that than the alternative: spotlighting characters it doesn't have the space or interest in seeing grow, doing them an active disservice. I do like the glimpses we get of the old cast, though, having become settled and frumpy and entered new phases of their lives. It tracks with a certain take on the end of Z and/or the manga. I think eventually its lack of progression for them within the series itself, if we're going to see the expanded cast at all, would have become an issue, but -- likely unintentionally -- the series doesn't stick around long enough to grow out of the feeling of being an expanded epilogue. If we aren't going to see most of its secondary cast members grow, exactly, it can at least coast through its episode run on the fact that what it's showing us of them is new, as we re-adjust to their status-quos and their implied trajectories in the unseen years between the end of the Boo arc and the start of GT.

Could it get more than 64 episodes' worth of material maintaining the same approach before the seams start to show? I don't know; probably not; but that's not the way things shook out.

But like, yeah. Better to simply imply characters like Trunks and Goten didn't do anything particularly interesting within the fifteen-year gap than to take Super's and continuously show us.

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Re: Why the lack of relevant characters in GT doesn't bother me

Post by Kunzait_83 » Fri Jun 16, 2017 6:39 am

ABED wrote:People make a bigger idea out of Uub being Earth's defender, but that's a position that Goku took by happenstance. He didn't actively seek it out and he often puts the world in danger. His biggest reason for wanting Uub around is to spar with him.
The idea of Goku being "Earth's defender" is one that flat out just doesn't even exist in the manga (or for that matter the Japanese version of the original anime run) anyway. That's a notion that the various English localizations have come up with to make the show more "palatable" to clueless American kids.

Like you said, Goku has always fulfilled the role of being a "protector" of sorts for Earth by sheer happenstance. Its not something he'd ever for one fleeting moment think of himself as, nor would any of the other characters with him. Hell, nor does even the story in and of itself think or or treat him as that. Goku is simply the greatest martial arts master on the planet: by sheer virtue of the degree of power we're dealing with here, it just simply shakes out that his enemies' very existence, in being so powerful and so reckless with that power, happen to also threaten the world (increasingly more often as time goes on).

But that's never really been an issue that has particularly concerned Goku as much as fighting those enemies for his own personal reasons (typically revenge for something they did to him and his family/friends, or out of excitement to test himself against a new worthy foe). That whole "Gotta save the world" angle has always been a distant, distant secondary concern (and sometimes not even that) to Goku, and to most of the other core cast too for that matter (Future Trunks really being the main big exception to this).

By this token though, Oob DOES still represent something a whole lot more than just someone to spar with. Whether Goku realizes it or not (and its definitely implied that he doesn't consciously fully realize this) what he's ACTIVELY made for himself here isn't just the ultimate sparring partner, but also moreover a student. Oob represents the first character Goku's come across (certainly far moreso than Gohan, his own son) who can serve as a recipient for all his knowledge, wisdom, and experience about fighting.

Someone who he can finally pass all of his skills onto before he himself inevitably dies (for keeps) and through which all of his accumulated knowledge and methods of fighting may carry on beyond his passing into the future through others. Its one of the single most important tropes in all of martial arts fiction, this idea of a master "living on" past death through their students, and its often been compared to the kung fu fiction equivalent of having kids (more so than a character actually literally having a kid).

As an end point for Goku, it definitely works and I've come to appreciate it as an end point more and more as time goes on (not that GT's final episode isn't still lovely of course). And I think its also totally fitting for Goku's character that he inherently has this burning desire to teach a student without seeming to fully understand or realize it or what it means for him (seeing it as simply another avenue to "fight a great opponent"). Its a great character-focused ending (and its funny how there was a thread recently asking of DB is more plot or character focused), but one of the things that it DOES leave you with is that if you WERE to continue the story past it, by sheer overwhelming necessity of what's been set up (and the magnitude of it on Goku's character arc and trajectory) you simply HAVE to make Oob some kind of a major character lest you rob all the power, point, and meaning behind that ending. Ignoring it just comes across as beyond cheap and careless to where the story had gone previously.

And its not like there's isn't already a ton of built-in potential for plenty interesting things for Oob to do or have happen to him: I mean, poor Indian peasant who is being trained by Goku as his successor while being secretly, and unbeknownst to himself, the reincarnation of the most powerful, lethal, and fearsome god-slaying demon in all of existence? Yeah you can do plenty of perfectly interesting and cool things with that premise, and STILL keep tons and tons of the focus more on Goku if you want. It doesn't in any way have to be an either/or.
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Re: Why the lack of relevant characters in GT doesn't bother me

Post by ABED » Fri Jun 16, 2017 8:05 am

Great post, but Goku is still in his prime even by the end of the series. I'm all for the story of the aging gunfighters final ride, but I don't think that applies here. Goku's still young by the end of DBZ. Sure the trope of the genre often involve the passing down of knowledge, but it doesn't necessitate Uub being that student. I would prefer Pan. If it takes away from DBZ's ending, so be it. I don't care for it anyway and don't think it's that powerful. A clever writer can still take that into account but not go down that route.
I'd like to acknowledge up front that the way GT sort of peters out on a full arc for Pan is a bit unforgivable.
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Re: Why the lack of relevant characters in GT doesn't bother me

Post by Basaku » Fri Jun 16, 2017 2:56 pm

Cipher wrote:I'd like to acknowledge up front that the way GT sort of peters out on a full arc for Pan is a bit unforgivable. Also, give her Super Saiyan for god's sake! That goes for Oob too(b).

But for the rest of the cast? GT indeed simply chooses to not use characters where they aren't needed, and that's fine. Better that than the alternative: spotlighting characters it doesn't have the space or interest in seeing grow, doing them an active disservice. I do like the glimpses we get of the old cast, though, having become settled and frumpy and entered new phases of their lives. It tracks with a certain take on the end of Z and/or the manga. I think eventually its lack of progression for them within the series itself, if we're going to see the expanded cast at all, would have become an issue, but -- likely unintentionally -- the series doesn't stick around long enough to grow out of the feeling of being an expanded epilogue. If we aren't going to see most of its secondary cast members grow, exactly, it can at least coast through its episode run on the fact that what it's showing us of them is new, as we re-adjust to their status-quos and their implied trajectories in the unseen years between the end of the Boo arc and the start of GT.

Could it get more than 64 episodes' worth of material maintaining the same approach before the seams start to show? I don't know; probably not; but that's not the way things shook out.

But like, yeah. Better to simply imply characters like Trunks and Goten didn't do anything particularly interesting within the fifteen-year gap than to take Super's and continuously show us.
Situations where characters ain't needed is also nothing more than by-design concious choice on the writers' part, these don't "write themselves". I agree however about irrelevant/pointless screentime. BOG/ROF and Super did a TON of that. Some character should just be retired completly instead of endless nostalgia slice-of-life jokes/fanservice (that for some reason gets praised by part of the fanbse regardless how bad it is). At least the current arc actually gives some relevancy and long-delayed progress to a handful of those characters, but we'll see where this leads.

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