Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Doctor.]

Goku put up too good a fight against Merged Zamasu for him to be inferior to Black.

Actually I'd say Black was probably the weakest of the three now. Hit was slightly weaker than Goku. Frieza is as strong as Goku.

Hit would probably beat Frieza though even if he is weaker.

Black's clones still held down both Vegeta and Goku, so let's not sleep on him just yet.

[Lord Frieza]

snip

snip

Fair enough.




But you know the really scary implication of all this? Frieza surpassed Goku, Vegeta (not counting there current level), Hit and Black......ages ago, with only 4 months of training and time to get his stamina issues under control...

JUST WHAT KIND OF MONSTER WILL HE BECOME IF HE'S ALLOWED TO TRAIN FURTHER!!!!

[TheSaiyanGod]

Freeza stronger than Goku, Hit, Vegeta and Black?
Where was this shown?

[Marlowe89]

Merged Zamasu was said to have the strongest Ki they'd ever sensed which should put him above SSJB Goku Kaioken x10. Goku was not that far off from Zamasu. He was at least half as strong as him.

At this juncture, I'd probably take Vegeta's statement to be somewhat hyperbolic in the end. I believe it was Goku (or was it Vegeta?) who already stated that training in the RoSaT wouldn't give them drastic gains anymore back during the RoF arc, so combined with the knowledge in this episode it doesn't seem very likely to me that Merged Zamasu was ever that strong to begin with. He was probably just shy of twice Goku's strength in Super Saiyan Blue and would have always been that way regardless of whether there was any training involved on Goku/Vegeta's part.

Plus, it's worth noting that Kaioken x10 was enough to momentarily intimidate Champa.

[Bullza]

Black's clones still held down both Vegeta and Goku, so let's not sleep on him just yet.

They did but it didn't look like either of them actually used their full power until the second time they attacked Merged Zamasu which was when they destroyed that purple cloud monster thing.

Merged Zamasu's power was said to be Black and Zamasu's together and then expanded on to no end. Goku overpowered Merged Zamasu, I couldn't see Black overpowering a much more powerful version of himself.

Now we've also got the manga too and that also has Super Saiyan Blue Goku and Vegeta as being superior to Black. Yeah the anime is different but it seems the same in that regard.

JUST WHAT KIND OF MONSTER WILL HE BECOME IF HE'S ALLOWED TO TRAIN FURTHER!!!!

Well he shouldn't be able to get that much stronger. He trained for four months to unlock lock his late by ability, his potential so he should be as strong as he could possibly be. That said the series doesn't seem to take that too literally, characters always seem to unlock their potential and still keep going.

An old Toriyama comment said that nobody what Frieza did he'd never be a match for Beerus.

At this juncture, I'd probably take Vegeta's statement to be somewhat hyperbolic in the end. I believe it was Goku (or was it Vegeta?) who already stated that training in the RoSaT wouldn't give them drastic gains anymore back during the RoF arc, so combined with the knowledge in this episode it doesn't seem very likely to me that Merged Zamasu was ever that strong to begin with.

Well the Supreme Kai also said something very similar about Merged Zamasu. I can't remember the lines now but I think both said something on it. Of course Supreme Kai was also there to see Kaioken x10 Goku.

It was Vegeta who said they'd reached their limits but then he did seem to correct himself when in the Rosat by saying he could tell they were improving.

[Lord Frieza]

Freeza stronger than Goku, Hit, Vegeta and Black?
Where was this shown?

As I said, not counting Goku and Vegeta as they are, Frieza surpassed them by a very noticeable margin a while ago with only 4 months of training. Goku and Vegeta are only just now catching up to him if you dont count KK.

Goku beat Hit during his assassination attempt and he did it without KK, since he and Frieza are equal now (not counting KK) Frieza would murder Hit unless he got lucky with his killing movies.

During their last battle Black only beat Goku due to his super zenkai, so when we see SSR Black for the first time Frieza is still more powerful then him.

So Golden Frieza, when he first appearied, was more powerful then all 4 of those guys. Until recently for Goku and Vegeta, is still stronger then Hit until proven otherise and was stronger then SSR Black when he first showed up.

and he did it all in just 4 months.....THATS INSANE!!!!!

[TheSaiyanGod]

Freeza stronger than Goku, Hit, Vegeta and Black?
Where was this shown?

As I said, not counting Goku and Vegeta as they are, Frieza surpassed them by a very noticeable margin a while ago with only 4 months of training. Goku and Vegeta are only just now catching up to him if you dont count KK.

Goku beat Hit during his assassination attempt and he did it without KK, since he and Frieza are equal now (not counting KK) Frieza would murder Hit unless he got lucky with his killing movies.

During their last battle Black only beat Goku due to his super zenkai, so when we see SSR Black for the first time Frieza is still more powerful then him.

So Golden Frieza, when he first appearied, was more powerful then all 4 of those guys. Until recently for Goku and Vegeta, is still stronger then Hit until proven otherise and was stronger then SSR Black when he first showed up.

and he did it all in just 4 months.....THATS INSANE!!!!!

In fact, that's what happened in the episode.

Although I'm sure the manga will be different, as TOEI always does this kind of thing in the fights, making it appear that opponents are on the same level (Goku VS 17 and Goku VS Gohan)

This really would not make any sense, considering that Freeza had already used his full power in the first fight with Goku, and the Saiyajin could handle it well.
Not to mention that the next enemy is always stronger.

And now, Goku and Vegeta are at least stronger than Black (even after Zenkai and Scythe)

[Lord Frieza]

JUST WHAT KIND OF MONSTER WILL HE BECOME IF HE'S ALLOWED TO TRAIN FURTHER!!!!

Well he shouldn't be able to get that much stronger. He trained for four months to unlock lock his late by ability, his potential so he should be as strong as he could possibly be. That said the series doesn't seem to take that too literally, characters always seem to unlock their potential and still keep going.

I'm sorry but that makes no logical sense and Frieza has pretty much disproved that idea in this arc.

You physically cannot max your potential out in 4 months when you have done 0 real training before. Goku has spent his life training and is only really hitting a wall now and most of the caste are in a similar position or still getting stronger. Frieza is at the opposite end of the scale and only just starting to really push himself.

Also Frieza entire baiting of Goku was based around the idea of him becoming even more powerful, the one thing that would tempt Goku. Which means Goku knows for a fact Frieza can get stronger.

You should know that Toriyama comments from then are not worth a zeni. The man changes his mind faster then you can say "Golden Frieza is Back".

[Marlowe89]

Well the Supreme Kai also said something very similar about Merged Zamasu. I can't remember the lines now but I think both said something on it. Of course Supreme Kai was also there to see Kaioken x10 Goku.

The Supreme Kai said that Zamasu's standing as a god was beyond even his understanding, which I think is still a bit vague to be honest. Of course we could reasonably infer that Merged Zamasu was a little more than twice Goku's strength in Blue, but to assume that Goku became over five times stronger since the U6 Tournament (for me, anyway) doesn't mesh well with Vegeta's statement about the RoSaT, Champa becoming somewhat intimidated by Goku glancing at him in Kaioken x10 and the revelations in the current episode.

If anything I'd say SSB Kaioken x10 Goku was the strongest we've ever seen him in the series by far, but that's just me.

[Bullza]

I'm sorry but that makes no logical sense and Frieza has pretty much disproved that idea in this arc.

I don't know how logical it's supposed to be. That's all that was said, he didn't just decide to train four months randomly, he trained to unlock his latent potential and he said that would take him four months.

Maybe that's changed now because yeah he did say he could get stronger but maybe him mastering his power is him getting stronger.

Is True Golden Frieza to Golden Frieza what MSSJ Goku was to SSJ Goku or something?

[Master Xar]

JUST WHAT KIND OF MONSTER WILL HE BECOME IF HE'S ALLOWED TO TRAIN FURTHER!!!!

Well he shouldn't be able to get that much stronger. He trained for four months to unlock lock his late by ability, his potential so he should be as strong as he could possibly be. That said the series doesn't seem to take that too literally, characters always seem to unlock their potential and still keep going.

I'm sorry but that makes no logical sense and Frieza has pretty much disproved that idea in this arc.

You physically cannot max your potential out in 4 months when you have done 0 real training before. Goku has spent his life training and is only really hitting a wall now and most of the caste are in a similar position or still getting stronger. Frieza is at the opposite end of the scale and only just starting to really push himself.

Also Frieza entire baiting of Goku was based around the idea of him becoming even more powerful, the one thing that would tempt Goku. Which means Goku knows for a fact Frieza can get stronger.

You should know that Toriyama comments from then are not worth a zeni. The man changes his mind faster then you can say "Golden Frieza is Back".

yeah in this arc the interview where he said that was long before he'd have thought about bringing Frieza back again, probably before the series was even thought to go this long...

[Lord Frieza]

I'm sorry but that makes no logical sense and Frieza has pretty much disproved that idea in this arc.

I don't know how logical it's supposed to be. That's all that was said, he didn't just decide to train four months randomly, he trained to unlock his latent potential and he said that would take him four months.

Maybe that's changed now because yeah he did say he could get stronger but maybe him mastering his power is him getting stronger.

Is True Golden Frieza to Golden Frieza what MSSJ Goku was to SSJ Goku or something?

Ok let me explain. In the King Piccolo arc, the god water was supposed to bring out Goku's latent potential, the Grand Elder did the same with Krillian and Gohan. And in all those cases the characters have continued to get stronger and stronger. In Goku and Gohan's case the power boosts from those events are really pathetic when compared to the leaps in power they would later achieve. So when it says "unlock his latent potential" there is a very good president set in the series that shows that this statement dose not mean he cannot get stronger.

AS for True Golden Frieza...I'm not sure. His Golden form is not SS and so the rules are not the same. MSS was Goku improving on the fundamental flaws of SS. Golden Frieza only had the stamina flaw because he got the form and after transforming just once came to earth without taking the time to master it at all.

So True Golden Frieza is just Frieza getting the control of the form he should have done in the first place. Its the same difference between his 100% Final Form on Namek and his Mastered Final Form in RoF.

[hexcode99]

Um, guys, Goku literally shit a brick when when Freeza went full power in his Golden form.
And remember what he said in episode 93? He can still get stronger!! Guy is on a whole different level!!!

[The gr]

We do know This isn't the Same frieza from rof,he has been training,his current power is equal to ssb goku

[Bullza]

The Supreme Kai said that Zamasu's standing as a god was beyond even his understanding, which I think is still a bit vague to be honest. Of course we could reasonably infer that Merged Zamasu was a little more than twice Goku's strength in Blue, but to assume that Goku became over five times stronger since the U6 Tournament (for me, anyway) doesn't mesh well with Vegeta's statement about the RoSaT, Champa becoming somewhat intimidated by Goku glancing at him in Kaioken x10 and the revelations in the current episode.

If anything I'd say SSB Kaioken x10 Goku was the strongest we've ever seen him in the series by far, but that's just me.

I just checked the Crunchy Roll subs and Vegeta's​ line was this

"Impossible...God or not, I've never seen anyone let off energy like this!"

If that's a simple power comparison then it sounds pretty clear cut. That should put him above the likes of a slightly serious Beerus and SSJB Goku Kaioken X10 as he was there for both.

Gowasu says

"What terrifying energy...I've never seen such a powerful light"

To which Supreme Kai agrees. Not sure what he means by light exactly unless he's referring to just power or evil power. He did see the Universe 6 Tournament on GodTube and did see Goku fight though.

Plus they also referred to him as having "Ultimate strength".

Logically you'd think with how strong Black was and the Fusion multiplier we've seen from other characters that he should be more than 10 times stronger than Goku was back at the Tournament easily.

[Triggered Vegeta]

According to the subs I read... Sidra only gave that dog a portion of the Hakai... that's probably the reason Frieza was able to control it. I think it's safe to assume a 100% hakai from Sidra would've killed Frieza. Still a good feat by Frieza tho.. I'll give him that.

[larzooma]

I take back my previous arguments against Frieza's position on the list. Although I think it's the first time I really thought the writers went off the deep end by giving Frieza a power boost making him equal to current Goku, simply through mental concentration, the list currently goes:

1. Goku -- KK is still his trump card
2. Vegeta/Frieza -- I think Vegeta is stronger than Goku in SSJB, so it's most likely give and take between himself and his old boss.
3. Gohan
4. 17
5. Piccolo
6. 18
7. Krillin
8. Tien
9. Roshi

[Marlowe89]

Logically you'd think with how strong Black was and the Fusion multiplier we've seen from other characters that he should be more than 10 times stronger than Goku was back at the Tournament easily.

The fusion multiplier couldn't have been much higher than Black's power, if it even multiplied it at all. Black's last boost before the fusion was enough to tear a gaping hole in the fabric of reality, shock Vegeta with his power and then create presumably weaker clones that neither Goku nor Vegeta were stronger than according to Black himself, yet Goku was able to overpower Merged Zamasu with Kaioken. Gowasu also kept making reference to "Black's power and Zamasu's immortality" after the fusion, as if Merged Zamasu's newfound strength was somehow much more attributable to Black than it was to Zamasu.

Basically, I think the power scales between the anime and manga were largely the same there. There's Merged Zamasu's power, followed very slightly by Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken Goku (or Complete Super Saiyan Blue Goku from the manga) followed in turn by Super Saiyan Rose Black and then Goku and Vegeta in their regular Super Saiyan Blue forms. I don't think Goku became multiple times stronger after the tournament because there's not much to directly imply it and a few things that seem to go against the idea. If he really did become five to ten times stronger, I don't believe the anime did a particularly good job of conveying that.

[ZombieVito]

If you're not convinced of the existence of Saiyan beyond God after this episode then I don't know what to tell you.

[ssj3kakarot]

I'm calling it. Golden Freeza is going to get wrecked by Jiren!!!

There are 2 logical reason why we would have that line about Goku being evenly matched to improved Golden Frieza. It's either to show how much Frieza has improved or to set a standard to the viewer. So we go into the ToP knowing Frieza and Goku are even, but Jiren stomps Frieza. Then, we as viewers poop are pants because we think Goku is a match to Frieza.

Even if my reasons are off, I still think Jiren will poop on Freeza's face. They need to have Jiren smash someone who the viewer knows is a real threat (goku, vegeta, Freeza, maybe gohan, or even Hit).