Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.
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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Sat Jun 24, 2017 10:49 pm

ZombieVito wrote:Freeza reached god level in 4 months...
Frieza spent 4 month training hard with a sparring partner to unlock his latent potential to become God level.

We don't really what Frost has been up to. Has he ever trained in his life? Does he have the same kind of latent potential, he might but not necessarily. Has he actually done any training for the past year or has he just been in hiding the whole time.

Unless they say he's done something similar then Frieza should be far stronger unless the two bases isn't a thing in which case Frost would be God level already.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Sat Jun 24, 2017 10:54 pm

Bullza wrote:Unless they say he's done something similar then Frieza should be far stronger unless the two bases isn't a thing in which case Frost would be God level already.
They don't have to specifically mention that. If Frost shares the same biology at all, it would already stand to reason he has the same latent potential as Frieza.

Not that it matters because it's not like we've seen them duking it out yet.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Sat Jun 24, 2017 11:52 pm

Marlowe89 wrote:Interestingly, Liquiir said "Let us reaffirm our superiority over all of the participating universes" right before his sparring match with Iwen and Arak. Although one could interpret that as referring only to the fighters, the fact he mentioned the universes as a whole could quite plausibly mean he was including their Gods of Destruction in that statement as well.

It's not exactly confirmed but I could definitely see Liquiir, Iwen, Arak and Gene being the most powerful Gods of Destruction, with Sidra being the weakest.
This "superiority" does not necessarily refer to power, and the Hakaishins need not be included in it. I do not much agree with the idea of ​​measuring the level of a Hakaishin only by the mortal level of his universe.

This refers only to the mismanagement of the Hakaishin and the Kaioshin, does not refer to the Force. If that were so, Beerus would be the second Hakaishin weaker and Champa would be stronger than him (for he has a higher mortal level)

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Sun Jun 25, 2017 12:08 am

TheSaiyanGod wrote:This "superiority" does not necessarily refer to power, and the Hakaishins need not be included in it. I do not much agree with the idea of ​​measuring the level of a Hakaishin only by the mortal level of his universe.
I don't necessarily agree with the idea that mortal levels determine the power levels of various universes either, but Liquiir's statement had to refer to power in some regard since it was within the context of them showcasing their strength in a sparring match.

Either way, I didn't mean to tout it as some kind of proof that they were stronger than the other Gods of Destruction but I do think it's food for thought. It's equally possible that they only meant they were affirming their superiority to the universes' fighters in particular. More information is probably needed in any case.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by dbgtFO » Sun Jun 25, 2017 12:40 am

As far as Hakaishin power ranking is concerned, Gene implies he is stronger than Liquir, Iwen and Arak.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ChiefWamsutta » Sun Jun 25, 2017 2:49 am

Gene implied that there was no point in fighting the other Gods of Destruction, and Liquir's point about reaffirming their power over the other universes makes me think they are strong.

No other fights happened other than my thoughts on Ep. 95 when "Base" Goku could keep up with True Golden Frieza. I still believe that was a version of Super Saiyan God.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Legion » Sun Jun 25, 2017 6:39 am

Nothing suggest that Gin, Iwan, Liquor and Arak are the strongest Gods. The other Gods were not even there during this battle between the 4 Gods.

Gin did not fight because he know that Daishinkan was just trolling them and will make them fix the arena. So, is more smart for sure.

Liquor statement about "superiority" is because they have a higher mortal level. That's what their superiority was referring. They think they are better because they are ranked higher.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by emperior » Sun Jun 25, 2017 7:03 am

Bullza wrote:So if Final Form Frieza fights Final Form Frost and the latter is able to put up a good fight....does that kill the two base theory?

One should be as strong as Super Saiyan God whereas the other was weaker than Super Saiyan, he was said to have improved but he wouldn't have become that strong normally in so short a time, just on the run too.

If there is only one Base then Frost should have the edge on Frieza.
Unfortunately, even if it happens, it would amount to nothing because both Freezer and Frost got stronger since the last time we saw them.
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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sun Jun 25, 2017 7:12 am

Everyone is speculating about the fighters' power levels, yet here I am wondering how much stronger Kachin Katchin is than Universe 7's ordinary Katchin, considering it managed to hold up to a small spar between 3 Gods of Destruction.

Also, this marks the first time we've seen Gods of Destruction fight after the skirmishes between Beerus, Goku, and Champa

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Ki Breaker » Sun Jun 25, 2017 7:16 am

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:Everyone is speculating about the fighters' power levels.
Well.. yeah..
That's what this thread is for..

Also this new metal should be the strongest in existence, it is chosen for this job by the highest beings
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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:05 am

Legion wrote:Nothing suggest that Gin, Iwan, Liquor and Arak are the strongest Gods. The other Gods were not even there during this battle between the 4 Gods.

Gin did not fight because he know that Daishinkan was just trolling them and will make them fix the arena. So, is more smart for sure.

Liquor statement about "superiority" is because they have a higher mortal level. That's what their superiority was referring. They think they are better because they are ranked higher.
My thoughts exactly. They were ranked higher because of their mortal quality. Gin was just more perceptive than the other gods.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:47 am

Now that the battle royale is about to begin I suppose it's a good time to post my updated tier list, as promised. Keep in mind that this is a very tentative list and could change on a moment's notice as the tournament progresses; Universe 6's warriors in particular may have become significantly stronger since we last saw them fight.

[spoiler]IMPORTANT: This tier list subscribes to (and operates from) three chief ideas -- 1.) that Goku and Vegeta have access to a base state with the power of Super Saiyan God in addition to their ordinary base state in the anime and films, 2.) that certain strategies and special abilities (such as Hit's Time-Skip) can allow one to outperform characters who are much higher than them on the list, and 3.) that the power scales in the anime and manga are (more or less) the same, with Super Saiyan God being the manga equivalent of the anime's "Saiyan Beyond God". If you disagree with any of these interpretations, you're probably not going to agree with much of anything in this list so you may as well move along.

This list has been updated as of 06/25/2017.

Elder God Tier

Zeno

Higher God Tier

Great Priest
Vados
Whis
Vegito Blue
Beerus
Champa
Mutated Fusion Zamasu (anime only)

God Tier

Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken Goku (anime only)
Toppo
Sidra
Fusion Zamasu
Super Saiyan Blue Goku | Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta | Golden Frieza
Super Saiyan Rosé Goku Black
Super Trunks (anime only)
Hit
Giant Bergamo
Saiyan Beyond God Goku (anime only) | Saiyan Beyond God Vegeta (anime only) | Super Saiyan God Goku (manga only) | Super Saiyan God Vegeta (manga only)
Final Form Frieza

Top Tier

Super Saiyan Goku Black (manga only)
Super Vegito
Strengthened Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta
Below 10% Beerus

High Tier

Goku Black
Super Saiyan 3 Goku | Strengthened Super Saiyan 2 Trunks (manga only)
Piccolo
Slim Buu
Mr. Buu
Drug Enhanced Basil
Super Saiyan 2 Trunks
Super Saiyan 2 Goku | Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta | Super Saiyan 2 Gohan
Zamasu
Super Saiyan 2 Caulifla
Legendary Super Saiyan Kale

Mid Tier

Super Saiyan Trunks
Super Saiyan Goku | Super Saiyan Vegeta | Super Saiyan Gohan
Super Saiyan Caulifla
Super Saiyan Cabba
Magetta
Final Form Frost
Tagoma
Android 18

Low Tier

Trunks
Goku | Vegeta | Gohan
Trio De Dangers (non-enhanced)
Caulifla
Cabba
Third Form Frost
Kale
First Form Frost
Botamo
Talisman Master Roshi
Krillin
Tien
Shisami
Master Roshi

Unknown / TBD

Iwne
Helles
Mosco
Quitela
Arack
Liquiir
Rumsshi
Belmod
Geene
Ultimate Gohan
Android 17[/spoiler]

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sun Jun 25, 2017 11:51 am

Marlowe89 wrote:Now that the battle royale is about to begin I suppose it's a good time to post my updated tier list, as promised. Keep in mind that this is a very tentative list and could change on a moment's notice as the tournament progresses; Universe 6's warriors in particular may have become significantly stronger since we last saw them fight.

[spoiler]IMPORTANT: This tier list subscribes to (and operates from) three chief ideas -- 1.) that Goku and Vegeta have access to a base state with the power of Super Saiyan God in addition to their ordinary base state in the anime and films, 2.) that certain strategies and special abilities (such as Hit's Time-Skip) can allow one to outperform characters who are much higher than them on the list, and 3.) that the power scales in the anime and manga are (more or less) the same, with Super Saiyan God being the manga equivalent of the anime's "Saiyan Beyond God". If you disagree with any of these interpretations, you're probably not going to agree with much of anything in this list so you may as well move along.

This list has been updated as of 06/25/2017.

Elder God Tier

Zeno

Higher God Tier

Great Priest
Vados
Whis
Vegito Blue
Beerus
Champa
Mutated Fusion Zamasu (anime only)

God Tier

Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken Goku (anime only)
Toppo
Sidra
Fusion Zamasu
Super Saiyan Blue Goku | Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta | Golden Frieza
Super Saiyan Rosé Goku Black
Super Trunks (anime only)
Hit
Giant Bergamo
Saiyan Beyond God Goku (anime only) | Saiyan Beyond God Vegeta (anime only) | Super Saiyan God Goku (manga only) | Super Saiyan God Vegeta (manga only)
Final Form Frieza

Top Tier

Super Saiyan Goku Black (manga only)
Super Vegito
Strengthened Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta
Below 10% Beerus

High Tier

Goku Black
Super Saiyan 3 Goku | Strengthened Super Saiyan 2 Trunks (manga only)
Piccolo
Slim Buu
Mr. Buu
Drug Enhanced Basil
Super Saiyan 2 Trunks
Super Saiyan 2 Goku | Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta | Super Saiyan 2 Gohan
Zamasu
Super Saiyan 2 Caulifla
Legendary Super Saiyan Kale

Mid Tier

Super Saiyan Trunks
Super Saiyan Goku | Super Saiyan Vegeta | Super Saiyan Gohan
Super Saiyan Caulifla
Super Saiyan Cabba
Magetta
Final Form Frost
Tagoma
Android 18

Low Tier

Trunks
Goku | Vegeta | Gohan
Trio De Dangers (non-enhanced)
Caulifla
Cabba
Third Form Frost
Kale
First Form Frost
Botamo
Talisman Master Roshi
Krillin
Tien
Shisami
Master Roshi

Unknown / TBD

Iwne
Helles
Mosco
Quitela
Arack
Liquiir
Rumsshi
Belmod
Geene
Ultimate Gohan
Android 17[/spoiler]
Some thoughts:

1) Any reason why you have Piccolo over Slim Boo?
2) I really don't think Sidra is that low. He should still be higher God tier.
3) Having watched episode 21 again, I think Shisami is stronger than the humans. Kuririn's reaction implies this to me.
4) Where do you have Future Zamasu and power stressed Merged Zamasu?

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GodKaio-Ken » Sun Jun 25, 2017 12:26 pm

Marlowe89 wrote:
Bullza wrote:Unless they say he's done something similar then Frieza should be far stronger unless the two bases isn't a thing in which case Frost would be God level already.
They don't have to specifically mention that. If Frost shares the same biology at all, it would already stand to reason he has the same latent potential as Frieza.

Not that it matters because it's not like we've seen them duking it out yet.
They are no more related than we are as humans. Possibly less. A human can be 7'0 or a midget but we share common biology.
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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Sun Jun 25, 2017 12:42 pm

ZombieVito wrote:Some thoughts:

1) Any reason why you have Piccolo over Slim Boo?
2) I really don't think Sidra is that low. He should still be higher God tier.
3) Having watched episode 21 again, I think Shisami is stronger than the humans. Kuririn's reaction implies this to me.
4) Where do you have Future Zamasu and power stressed Merged Zamasu?
1. Toshio implied on his Twitter that 17, Gohan and Piccolo were all vying for the "third strongest" position on the U7 team, and I believe this was posted before Majin Buu's replacement. It's hardly concrete proof, of course -- Piccolo could easily be weaker than Buu -- but we know that Piccolo should at least be stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Gohan.

2. I still don't think Sidra is that much stronger than Frieza, given what the dialogue implied in the previous episode. Remember that Toppo was also scouted to become a candidate for the God of Destruction role despite being unsure as to whether he could defeat Goku, so we know that Gods of Destruction can potentially be below the "Higher God" tier and Sidra definitely strikes me as the weakest. I think their strength varies much more than people are willing to believe.

3. I'll have to take a look at that episode again. I never got the impression that Shisami was that strong, but I'm gladly willing to do a reassessment there.

4. I used to believe that Future Zamasu was considerably stronger than Present Zamasu, but my opinion on that has since changed. If Zamasu was capable of becoming that much stronger in a decade's time then there would have been no narrative need for Goku Black's initial strength, and to be honest, Future Zamasu spent most of his time in the arc just getting kicked around by everyone. In short, I think Future Zamasu's power in the anime is the same as it is in the manga.

As for "power stressed" Fusion Zamasu, to me that's just a bulked-up Mutated Fusion Zamasu drawing out more power at the cost of his speed. So he's in the same place as Mutated Fusion Zamasu, if perhaps a bit higher.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Sun Jun 25, 2017 6:13 pm

If Jiren is the mortal above the God of Destruction how much higher do you think he goes? Merged Zamasu? Super Saiyan Vegito? Sword of Hope Trunks?

They seem too seem to be inbetween God of Destruction and Angel level.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sun Jun 25, 2017 6:17 pm

Bullza wrote:If Jiren is the mortal above the God of Destruction how much higher do you think he goes? Merged Zamasu? Super Saiyan Vegito? Sword of Hope Trunks?

They seem too seem to be inbetween God of Destruction and Angel level.
I doubt that Jiren, if he is the mortal above his God of Destruction, is massively above him. Maybe by a few percent, possibly a small multiplication.

Also, Future Trunks isn't that strong, it was JUST the Genkidama Sword that allowed him to defeat Merged Zamasu.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Berserker1921 » Sun Jun 25, 2017 6:21 pm

I don't think Jiren is that mortal. It would be too obvious. I mean I could understand why many would think that. Because Toppo is next in line for god of destruction in U11. But if that's true, why isn't Jiren that person? Makes no sense. I suspect that Jiren is really strong. But I don't think he is that mortal.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Berserker1921 » Sun Jun 25, 2017 6:22 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Bullza wrote:If Jiren is the mortal above the God of Destruction how much higher do you think he goes? Merged Zamasu? Super Saiyan Vegito? Sword of Hope Trunks?

They seem too seem to be inbetween God of Destruction and Angel level.
I doubt that Jiren, if he is the mortal above his God of Destruction, is massively above him. Maybe by a few percent, possibly a small multiplication.

Also, Future Trunks isn't that strong, it was JUST the Genkidama Sword that allowed him to defeat Merged Zamasu.
And merged Zamasu had his ass kicked by Vegito blue. So I think Trunks beating him was because of the spirit sword and Vegito wearing him down.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GodKaio-Ken » Sun Jun 25, 2017 6:28 pm

ChiefWamsutta wrote:Gene implied that there was no point in fighting the other Gods of Destruction, and Liquir's point about reaffirming their power over the other universes makes me think they are strong.

No other fights happened other than my thoughts on Ep. 95 when "Base" Goku could keep up with True Golden Frieza. I still believe that was a version of Super Saiyan God.
Everyone is saying what you are but I have an alternate perspective to offer.

Gene isnt stronger....when he said the result is obvious he was actually showing INTELLIGENCE. Daishinkan had that planned all along IMO and Gene knew.
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