Is Super Goku REALLY all that dumb in comparison to Z Goku?

[Master Xar]

I mean going by how much the either of them screwed up or messed around, I really can't see how Super Goku is all that much worse than Z Goku or flawed, remember in the Android Arc how he completely forgot to take the medicine for his heart before he fought the Androids? I don't see how that's any better than Goku forgetting the Senzu Beans/Mafuba seal... in fact it may actually be worse considering he was warned by Trunks. Or giving Cell a Senzu Bean? Or letting Freeza go 100% risking his time on Namek?

Don't get me wrong I think Super Goku is more flawed overall, but is he really THAT much more flawed?

If either were switched roles do you think Super Goku would have as much backlash or would Z Goku have it as bad/worse/better?

[Amerigo]

Super Goku isn't actually an idiot. He manages a farm, and doing so requires a certain amount of intelligence.

[Lujin_16]

People have to stop complaining about he is a mix of Goku from Dragonball and Dragonball Z...I hate how people are so focused on Goku from Z and forget
how he was in Dragonball -.- that's typical in the dragonball community acting like they know everythink but knows shit

[Jigurashi]

Toei definitely exaggerates that aspect of him at times to various degrees, but I do feel like fans also exaggerate how often it happens. However, when it does happen I get quite annoyed of it. It annoys me as much as Toei making Vegeta still getting jelly over Goku.

[Nekis13]

Actually, he isn't really. He definitely seems more goofy than in Z due to Super's lighthearted nature.

[Lord Beerus]

I'd made a detailed post about this past, so I'm just going to reaffirm my position on this by reposting that opinion:

And as far as Goku's intelligence... this is such an overblown issue that it's crazy. I've only really come across one instance in where Goku, in my opinion, showed at the very worst a distinct lack of intelligence, or at the very least, an incredible amount of nativity in Super, and that was when he couldn't tell that was Beerus wearing a "Monaka" suit in episode 42. But in that circumstance, it was 100% played for laughs.

Stuff like Goku forgetting the senzu and and seal for the Mafuba jar in Future Trunks arc can be seen as huge slip ups, but its also a case of just forgetting things in a race against time. I mean, are we really gonna start labeling people stupid if they forget important things? It's like locking your keys inside your car or leaving a bag of groceries on the bus or forgetting important documents you're meant to take to school or work, at home, on the same day. Shit like that just happens. It's a common lapse in concentration that occurs to everyone at one stage of their life, even if they're not in a rush. And you're base IQ is not a determination of how much that factor plays in. It's happened to me, you and everyone on this forum at one point in their life. That doesn't mean you're stupid. I really don't see how forgetting something important qualifies as a display of lacking of intelligence or being stupid. Because if we're going by that logic, we're all fucking idiots.

I still believe Goku acted much dumber in the past, and for me, nothing will every top the sheer stupidity of him giving Cell a senzu before he fought Gohan in Cell Games. It was such a needless gamble. Never mind that Goku had no idea just how strong Cell was, but it was already an insane gamble to throw Gohan into the lions den without any plan and just hoping that he'd be able to spontaneously tap into the hidden power that he saw when he was training with Gohan in the ROSAT and defeat Cell. I don't give a shit how much Goku loves fighting and a good competition. That was such a fucking reckless thing to do. It essentially put Gohan at a disadvantage. And for what? A fair fight? Fuck that nonsense.

People act like he's this blubbering idiot in Super in every other episode when that is far from case. He's shown to able to work and trade very well as a vegetable farmer, and the test prior to the Universe 6/7 tournament shows that he has, at the very least, an average intelligence considering he passed it. And the two part episode with Krillin in the Forest of Fear shows he has a grasp on metal and physiological aspects as he figured out how to defeat the mirages of the villains by clearing and calming his mind. Not to mention his fights with in the Champa arc, his rematch against Hit and his battles in the Zen Exhibition match(es) show he is still very cunning and strategic fighter.

So for me personally, whenever I see the complaint of "Goku is always an idiot in Super" or "Goku is a retard in Super" or "Goku is much dumber in Super", I really have to question how much of Dragon Ball Z and Dragon Ball Super people have actually watched to come to that conclusion.

[sintzu]

I don't think fans call Toei out enough for how bad he's written in Super, especially in episodes like 53 (when he and Beerus visited Zamasu). He's like a really bad copy of Luffy now.

[Kanassa]

I'd made a detailed post about this past, so I'm just going to reaffirm my position on this by reposting that opinion:

Do you just have that saved on a clip board for how many times you have to reiterate it?

[Lord Beerus]

I'd made a detailed post about this past, so I'm just going to reaffirm my position on this by reposting that opinion:

Do you just have that saved on a clip board for how many times you have to reiterate it?

Yep.

Becuase, and I mean no offence at all to the OP, but threads like this pop up constantly. And I'm getting annoyed by it.

[Makai]

People mess up all the time, examples like in the Android or Buu sagas don't really show stupidity, just bad choices being made/forgetfulness. Same with Goku leaving the seal for the Mafuba in Super. As far as his personality, Goku has shown much more childish behavior and plain stupidity in Super, plus he's way more forgetful. This wouldn't even be a debate if it wasn't clear that Super Goku has been way watered down from Z Goku. I'd say Super wins this.

[Avok]

Yes, the difference between his characterization, especially when it comes to interactions with other characters and his overall stance in the plot is pretty noticeable.
Even though forgetting objects and such is an extension of the issue, you only need to look at his behaviour in almost every episode. The funny faces, the comments and reactions... Are all a simplification of Toriyama's character, reducing him to just an idiot except to when he's fighting.

Bad/controversial choices like giving Cell a Senzu or not defeating Buu are completely different than forgetting something or mistaking a seal. They're different than asking to start a tournament to send millions of people to their death, too. (This I think that will be adressed in the future, but no matter how it turns out it hasn't been handled well at all).

[Kanassa]

They're different than asking to start a tournament to send millions of people to their death, too.

You mean, asking to start a tournament with no reason to suspect that it would get deadly.

[Avok]

They're different than asking to start a tournament to send millions of people to their death, too.

You mean, asking to start a tournament with no reason to suspect that it would get deadly.

I mean, messing with someone you've been told not to mess with because they're highly volatile and other-worldly powerful.
As I said, I think I know what's the plan with it or so I wanna believe, but even then I wouldn't agree with Goku's characterization in this arc.

[Hit!!]

He's a lot less serious and a lot more goofy in Super than in Z, but more stupid?? Maybe not!!

As far as bad decisions go, Z Goku takes the cake. But then again, everybody in Z was, as Dende said in DBZA, a cavalcade of fuck ups!!

[Lord Beerus]

You know, it's funny... people talk about how much more stupid Goku is compared tohow he acted in Z, but I've yet to see people give that many examples beyond the Mafuba jar incident (which is also Roshi's fault to be honest) and shennanigans in Episode 42 with Beerus playing the role of Monika. Goku may act a bit more childish sometimes in Super but Goku is far more prone to acting boneheaded in Z. The Majin Boo arc flat out doesn't happen if Goku doesn't take at least 10 seconds to apply some critical thinking before fighting SSJ2 Majin Vegeta.

[lancerman]

You have to take it in context. In Z, Goku is used a lot more sparingly and mostly in critical battle contexts. He gets thrust right into the battle with Raditz. Break and we get him traveling on snake way being kind of a goof even mistaking Bubbles for Kaio-sama. Then we get a time jump and he's rushing to face the Saiyan. Big battle in a serious context. He lets Vegeta go for no reason. Then the next time he is relevant is when he's training isolated from everyone on his way to Namek. Then battle with Recoome, battle with the Ginyu's, body switch, out of commission, battle with Freeza. That's an entire arc with no down time. Then he has very little downtime in the Android arc. Then in the Boo arc he is back for a hot minute before he is thrust into battle again. The most downtime we ever get of Goku in all of Z is when he is traveling on snake way and meeting Kaio-sama, a brief period between training and the Cell games, and then when he's hanging out in Other World with Elder Kai.

In Super, we see Goku in a lot more practical real world context similar to the original Dragon Ball, and we get more comedy fish out of water material where he has comedic solutions to problems.

[lancerman]

They're different than asking to start a tournament to send millions of people to their death, too.

You mean, asking to start a tournament with no reason to suspect that it would get deadly.

I mean, messing with someone you've been told not to mess with because they're highly volatile and other-worldly powerful.
As I said, I think I know what's the plan with it or so I wanna believe, but even then I wouldn't agree with Goku's characterization in this arc.

You mean like when a certain powerful master that trained Goku warned him to avoid a certain space tyrant at all costs.

[Lord Beerus]

You have to take it in context. In Z, Goku is used a lot more sparingly and mostly in critical battle contexts. He gets thrust right into the battle with Raditz. Break and we get him traveling on snake way being kind of a goof even mistaking Bubbles for Kaio-sama. Then we get a time jump and he's rushing to face the Saiyan. Big battle in a serious context. He lets Vegeta go for no reason. Then the next time he is relevant is when he's training isolated from everyone on his way to Namek. Then battle with Recoome, battle with the Ginyu's, body switch, out of commission, battle with Freeza. That's an entire arc with no down time. Then he has very little downtime in the Android arc. Then in the Boo arc he is back for a hot minute before he is thrust into battle again. The most downtime we ever get of Goku in all of Z is when he is traveling on snake way and meeting Kaio-sama, a brief period between training and the Cell games, and then when he's hanging out in Other World with Elder Kai.

In Super, we see Goku in a lot more practical real world context similar to the original Dragon Ball, and we get more comedy fish out of water material where he has comedic solutions to problems.

You bring up a very good point. There was really never a "cooldown" period in Dragon Ball Z. It was always a case of jumping from one high-stakes arc to the next. Super has put Goku in a scenerio which he was never really exposed to that much in the original story, apart from the occasional filler in the anime in the Cell arc and post-Majin Boo arc. And that's what Goku does and how he acts when he's not throwing fisticuffs and has to handle scenerios outside of his usual context.

[Lord Beerus]

You mean, asking to start a tournament with no reason to suspect that it would get deadly.

I mean, messing with someone you've been told not to mess with because they're highly volatile and other-worldly powerful.
As I said, I think I know what's the plan with it or so I wanna believe, but even then I wouldn't agree with Goku's characterization in this arc.

You mean like when a certain powerful master that trained Goku warned him to avoid a certain space tyrant at all costs.

Or how Goku acted in the Majin Boo arc. Which lead to 99.9999% of the population of Earth dying as a result of it. Along with the planet itself being blown up. And even after that happened, Goku (and Vegeta) still fucked around when contemplating on how to fight Kid Boo and only through sheer luck did they defeat Kid Boo. But now it's an issue.

[sangofe]

Super Goku isn't actually an idiot. He manages a farm, and doing so requires a certain amount of intelligence.

Ugh, no, he doesn't. A farm has animals. He works on one field, for a little while. Sure, he works a farmer, but doesn't manage a farm. And this comes from someone who's a farmer himself.