Is Super Goku REALLY all that dumb in comparison to Z Goku?

[GodKaio-Ken]

You mean like when a certain powerful master that trained Goku warned him to avoid a certain space tyrant at all costs.

Or when everyone said dont mess with Beerus. How did that work out for Earth again?

Or when he was warned about the Androids in general and instead of not going out to find him BEFORE the Androids are built.

See that's the point I'm making here. What is so much worse about Super Goku? He is more goofy to a degree yes, but one could argue that it's because he's in lot less serious situations nowadays or that he has a Trump Card up his sleeve, the only really dumb thing he's done is the whole Monaka costume thing, and that was just a comedy episode.

Exactly.

I can put it really simply. Goku does whatever he wants because it has always worked out in the end. Sometimes its a bad decision but it works out.

[Avok]

You mean like when a certain powerful master that trained Goku warned him to avoid a certain space tyrant at all costs.

What choice did he had? It was either fight him or get killed. And it's not like I'm saying that Goku doesn't like to fight, but even then he contemplated the scenario where he didn't met Frieza, as King Kai said to him.

Or how Goku acted in the Majin Boo arc. Which lead to 99.9999% of the population of Earth dying as a result of it. Along with the planet itself being blown up. And even after that happened, Goku (and Vegeta) still fucked around when contemplating on how to fight Kid Boo and only through sheer luck did they defeat Kid Boo. But now it's an issue.

What stupid thing did he do in the Boo arc? Not defeating Boo? Completely in-character moment for Goku that came as an extension of exactly why he did the things he did in the Cell arc with Gohan. I'd agree they were reckless things (keyword), but no way in hell stupid as the hinted at something positive for Earth (the rise of more powerful warriors and the ability to defend themselves).

And again, I'm not saying he doesn't like to fight. It's just that his fighting spirit drive is portrayed in a different way.

What "facial expressions/reactions" are you talking about, Toriyama has gone on record to say he made Goku to be the most plain-faced main character he can think of, he is supposed to be the simplest of the simple, he's gone on record to say he hated the way Toei portrayed Z Goku.

What Toriyama said is that they didn't get right the duality of Goku. Of how he wants to do the right thing and protect his people but then he wants to fight strong people and get even stronger. The anime back had him as a righteous type character, now the tables have completely turn, so I'd say the aren't getting it right either.

Those choices with Buu and Cell whether out of pride/honor or worrying about the future were still stupid in the context of the situation if not worse, you could even argue Goku giving him the Senzu Bean was a complete plot device in and of itself, they aren't "different" by any means, they were literally Goku's most retarded decisions imaginable. Having tunnel vision and forgetting an item is more forgivable than knowing a situation ahead of time. Forgetting to fix said situation that you were WARNED of. And paying the price (forgetting to take the Medicine for the Heart Virus).

What's with all the "it's different" and double standards to skip out Z Goku when he did something equally as stupid.

How is giving Cell and Senzu or not defeating Buu stupid? They're reckless decisions, yes, but they hint at a bigger picture as I said above. Boo was much more risky, I agree, but the way it was portrayed was spot on. Goku's plan was that people on Earth took care of their own problems.

Forgetting the Senzu is incomparable. Take a look at [ur=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3efmM_d14Mgl]this clip[/url]. It's cheap comic relief. He behaves like a literal 5-year old and reacts in a way that is not like anything we saw in the manga. Go take a look at the scene where he realises he sent Gohan to his death or what he says when he acknowledges he could've defeated Boo. This is what I'm getting at, his whole character was gotten reduced to funny faces and comments so the children can have a laugh.

The seal thing is just bad writing on top of a joke. I say it in the past, but why would they bring back a technique that hasn't been mentioned in 30 years and that is the perfect counter to the big bad guy to get him defeated by an asspull? But we're not debating that here.

Goku did not send millions to their deaths dude... Vados even said that Goku bailed out a universe because ZENO WAS ALREADY PLANNING ON IT

Is it because he is less goofy than Super Goku and more serious? Is it because he is their Goku from their childhood? Is it something deeper than that?

Yes, the tournament was Zeno's idea. Triggering it was Goku's plan simply because the man-child was bored. No plans, no prior thought like before. And even if when the arc finishes they come forth and say that he had a plan so millions don't get killed or something I still will say it's bad because nothing hints at it like in other arcs.
I don't get whay do you mean with your last sentence. There's no Goku of my childhood. I mean, yeah, I grew up watching the series, but it wasn't until last year when I read the entire manga.

[TheMikado]

Goku has become increasing less reckless while also being future minded. His character developed into one that looked further than himself even though he didn't always make the right decisions or go about it the right way. That was the poison. His naievty, his selfishness, particularly when it came to choosing his own course of actions. That does not make him stupid. Thing that do make him appear stupid seem to be his inability to count correctly in Super or his absolute recklessness when it came to tending his own farm. I don't recall Goku being lazy to the point of falling asleep while doing a job. Or recklessly destroying his own home or livelihood while training, or letting Gohan accidently endanger himself because he's preoccupied with training those are the things that make him appear stupid.

[Asura]

Nah, too much drama like always. In DBS they highlight his goofy side more, but he's still serious when he needs to be. He's definitely not out of character.

Funnily enough, the current Universe Survival arc has the best portrayal of Son Goku's character ever to me.
In the first episodes during the Zen Exhibition Matches, Toriyama's Goku has came to the surface like never before and the proof is all the drama we had about he becoming "evil".

Some people got shocked when Goku was being called a villain by Toppo and he didn't mind that. I guess they are used to those cliché main characters.

He doesn't care if he's treated like the villain. He will never back down if he wants to fight. He puts his fun above everything else.
Goku fighting Super-Heroes like the Pride Troopers is a idea I Iove a lot because it makes Goku came out as the villain.

His conversation with C17 in episode 87 last scene also sums up perfectly what his character is all about:
[spoiler]



[/spoiler]

If anyone still doesn't know how Son Goku's character is supposed to be, rewatch this arc over and over until you get it is my suggestion.

That picture you posted pretty much completely contradicts your entire point about Goku having the best portrayal of himself ever during the exhibition matches. He says he's never really been aware that he saved the world and that he just wants to fight strong guys... BUT he then goes on to say "But I can't stand innocent people and animals getting erased." which completely contradicts how he acted during the exhibition matches where he basically gave every universe the finger because he doesn't care about them or all the lives within them getting erased.

Toriyama intended for Goku to be a selfish dude who only cares about fighting, but that was definitely not accurately portrayed in the exhibition matches. Instead, this trait was horribly exaggerated (just like many of his traits are in Super which multiple people here have already pointed out) and made him come off as borderline evil. They pushed this narrative so hard in fact with trying to get people to see Goku as evil (both the other universes and the audience) that one has to wonder whether it was done on purpose. If this was the most accurate portrayal of Goku, how come there are so many people who see it as the exact opposite? Saying that those people never read the manga and don't understand Goku's character can only get you so far. MasakoX for example, who is an absolute wealth of knowledge when it comes to DB also gave some remarks in his episode reviews and even made an entire video about how Goku was not acting at all like himself and the way he was being written was very strange.

People have to stop complaining about he is a mix of Goku from Dragonball and Dragonball Z...I hate how people are so focused on Goku from Z and forget
how he was in Dragonball -.- that's typical in the dragonball community acting like they know everythink but knows shit

How is that any better, I see people bringing this up a lot, as if its a good counter-argument. Goku isn't some type of piece of technology or video game or newly introduced character. He's an already established character to a story and his character is post to grow.

On another side of the spectrum, I think people have a problem discerning stupid decisions, instead of stupid moments, as in displaying a lack of of intelligence; which he does a lot in Super.

Oh yeah, I absolutely agree with this. People are always bringing up the "He was like this in Dragon Ball too!" excuse as if that somehow makes the situation better. A middle-aged man is acting like a 12 year old again and apparently that's acceptable. Someone then might use the excuse that Goku has always been a manchild, and while that is true, it's very obvious to see that Goku was a lot more mature in Z than he was in DB and Super. He had character development from the beginning of DB all the way up to the end of the Buu saga, yet somehow he's done nothing but regress during most of Super. A character regressing in maturity shouldn't be something to be proud of.

Funnily enough, GT Goku has the most logical character progression following the end of the Buu saga, and is undoubtedly the most mature version of Goku out of any of the series, yet he can still be goofy and selfish when it comes to fighting. He was written well. Super Goku has generally not been written well outside of the past few episodes we've had.

[Metalwario64]

Or when he was warned about the Androids in general and instead of not going out to find him BEFORE the Androids are built.

When he sacrificed himself against Cell, he told Gohan to tell Chi Chi he was sorry for being so selfish. In the Buu arc he tries to prevent Buu from being reborn instead of letting him be revived just to fight him (even if he doesn't do a very good job, because Super Saiyan 3 basically retconned Goku's statement of fighting Vegeta at full power to prevent the revival of Buu).

It's pretty clear to me that in the Buu arc he finally started taking things more seriously and Cell made him realize what an actual threat would do to the Earth, so the Buu arc he spends his time trying to find a new protector for Earth (which he feels he can't be because he's dead at that point).

He still loves fighting more than anything, and he's still very childish in the Buu arc, since that's how Goku always will be, but he takes threats and warnings very seriously. In Super he's back to toying around with people he's warned about (why the hell would he listen to Kaioshin's warnings about Buu, but not Beerus' warnings of Zeno?), and now he's back to doing absolutely anything just for the sake of a fun fight. This is a pretty big character regression.

[GreatSaiyaJeff]

Goku is simple, he enjoys a good fight. Yes he can be selfish but when it counts he does help out. However while he is simple or a country bumpkin as some put it, I don't think he isn't stupid. He has basic knowledge but nothing that make him stand out. The thing about Super that bugs me is they do play up the fact that they somehow mix up simple with stupid. I don't know if I'm making any sense but he just feels off at times.

[Asura]

Goku is simple, he enjoys a good fight. Yes he can be selfish but when it counts he does help out. However while he is simple or a country bumpkin as some put it, I don't think he isn't stupid. He has basic knowledge but nothing that make him stand out. The thing about Super that bugs me is they do play up the fact that they somehow mix up simple with stupid. I don't know if I'm making any sense but he just feels off at times.

You're making perfect sense. In fact, I really like that line of thinking. Maybe it's not so much that they made him dumber, but that they simply mixed up simple with stupid, and as a result he looks dumber.

[PeanutSaiyan]

Anybody who truly believes that Goku isn't being written like Lenny from mice and men for the sake of pandering to a younger audience, are straight up fooling themselves. His character has regressed to the point of absurdity.


I can't believe people are even bringing up giving Cell a senzu bean, that was clearly a calculated risk (if not a little arrogant) since he knew what Gohan was capable of. And guess what, Cell was no match for him.

His whole thing with Buu was another calculated risk based off the notion that since he's dead, Earth can't rely on him as a savior anymore and it's time for the new generation to take the mantle. Comparing these instances to him pissing himself? His constant child like idiocy? sometimes the fanbase of super is SO desperate to defend their cereal commercial.

[Miracles]

It's just simple exaggeration. No concrete examples are ever given. Goku is the same one track minded person as always.

[Totamo]

Honestly, Really thinking about it. Goku was kind of a plot device in Z. He was often removed from the story and only use to forward or end the plot. When he was around he was serious but even then his actions were questionable at least once in all 4 sagas.


He also wasn't like this in Ball, he was far more balanced and there it could be argued that he is actual an accidental hero instead of now where he is both which started in Z


The thing is what most fans say Super did to Z Goku, Z Goku did to Ball Goku.

[sangofe]

Super Goku isn't actually an idiot. He manages a farm, and doing so requires a certain amount of intelligence.

Ugh, no, he doesn't. A farm has animals. He works on one field, for a little while. Sure, he works a farmer, but doesn't manage a farm. And this comes from someone who's a farmer himself.

Do you have a shotgun a hat and a mustache?

Nope.

[Lord Beerus]

You mean like when a certain powerful master that trained Goku warned him to avoid a certain space tyrant at all costs.

What choice did he had? It was either fight him or get killed. And it's not like I'm saying that Goku doesn't like to fight, but even then he contemplated the scenario where he didn't met Frieza, as King Kai said to him.

Or how Goku acted in the Majin Boo arc. Which lead to 99.9999% of the population of Earth dying as a result of it. Along with the planet itself being blown up. And even after that happened, Goku (and Vegeta) still fucked around when contemplating on how to fight Kid Boo and only through sheer luck did they defeat Kid Boo. But now it's an issue.

What stupid thing did he do in the Boo arc? Not defeating Boo? Completely in-character moment for Goku that came as an extension of exactly why he did the things he did in the Cell arc with Gohan. I'd agree they were reckless things (keyword), but no way in hell stupid as the hinted at something positive for Earth (the rise of more powerful warriors and the ability to defend themselves).

And again, I'm not saying he doesn't like to fight. It's just that his fighting spirit drive is portrayed in a different way.

The situation with Majin Boo and Cell and really not the same. In the Cell arc, Goku had no chance of defeating Cell and he knew even before fighting him in the Cell Games. Even though it was still a gamble to through Gohan into the lions den, he at least had the justification of knowing that Gohan was much stronger than him that it was worth the risk. In the Majin Boo arc, he's warned multiple times of what a threat Majin Boo is and how they should prevent him from being resurrected. But he still willingly contributes his resurrection, and when he has the opportunity the kill him he doesn't do it. Why is stupid? Because he could have prevented billions of peoples dying and chose not to under the pretense of "the kids should handle this". Which in the end they didn't. It would be one thing if Goku played no significant part in resurrecting Majin Boo and wasn't strong enough to kill him, but neither of scenarios were the case. He just wanted to let the kids (Goten and Trunks) fight Majin Boo. It makes his intentions of wanting the new generation to take care of themselves seem hollow.

I can understand the intention Goku was going for in the Cell arc, even if the way he did about it was pointlessly reckless and dumb what he did was. But the Majin Boo arc was not the same scenario at all. If you want to build up for the new generation that taking up the mantle, that's fine. Gohan's case is acceptable because he was truly the only option they had at that time. But don't create multiple scenarios, where the threat could have been dealt even before it even began, without even the notion of the new generation having the lifting a finger was contemplated, like was the case in the Majin Boo arc. Because then it just make Goku wanting the new generation take care of themselves as less sincere and genuine and more of a glorified case of passing the buck and having someone else clean up the shitstorm he contributed to.

And in what way is Goku's his "fighting spirit drive" portrayed differently?

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Watching Buu Kai and Buu Goku is so much more worse than anything in Super. He left the fate of the Earth with current earthlings because he's dead and technically not supposed to be there yet the whole summoning of Buu was his stupid fault, he pranced around with Vegeta all of a sudden wasn't too dead for that was he.

He could've ended Buu but didn't yet has the cheek to get all prissy from other world when Buu kills and the worst one entrusting two boys who he barely knows to a technique he only knows in theory.

Stops them going in the RoSaT because of potentialities, oh they might need it again in the future, mate you don't wanna kill Buu fine at least go with with them in the RoSaT and make them see the technique through who gives a shit about the future when the threat of Buu is right f**king there!!!!!

I'm yet to start Part 3, but man Buu arc Goku just seems a device Toriyama used to allow the plot to plod along. Bah.

[Kanassa]

the worst one entrusting two boys who he barely knows to a technique he only knows in theory.

I forgot that, he doesn't even seem to know Goten exists until they meet at the tournament.

[Avok]

The situation with Majin Boo and Cell and really not the same. In the Cell arc, Goku had no chance of defeating Cell and he knew even before fighting him in the Cell Games. Even though it was still a gamble to through Gohan into the lions den, he at least had the justification of knowing that Gohan was much stronger than him that it was worth the risk. In the Majin Boo arc, he's warned multiple times of what a threat Majin Boo is and how they should prevent him from being resurrected. But he still willingly contributes his resurrection, and when he has the opportunity the kill him he doesn't do it. Why is stupid? Because he could have prevented billions of peoples dying and chose not to under the pretense of "the kids should handle this". Which in the end they didn't. It would be one thing if Goku played no significant part in resurrecting Majin Boo and wasn't strong enough to kill him, but neither of scenarios were the case. He just wanted to let the kids (Goten and Trunks) fight Majin Boo. It makes his intentions of wanting the new generation to take care of themselves seem hollow.

I can understand the intention Goku was going for in the Cell arc, even if the way he did about it was pointlessly reckless and dumb what he did was. But the Majin Boo arc was not the same scenario at all. If you want to build up for the new generation that taking up the mantle, that's fine. Gohan's case is acceptable because he was truly the only option they had at that time. But don't create multiple scenarios, where the threat could have been dealt even before it even began, without even the notion of the new generation having the lifting a finger was contemplated, like was the case in the Majin Boo arc. Because then it just make Goku wanting the new generation take care of themselves as less sincere and genuine and more of a glorified case of passing the buck and having someone else clean up the shitstorm he contributed to.

And in what way is Goku's his "fighting spirit drive" portrayed differently?

What choice did he had that wasn't fighting Vegeta? The Saiyan pride deal has been a thing since the beginning, there's no arguing that.
The death of billions of people is irrelevant since he explicitly (keyword) mentions they'll bring them back with the Dragon Balls.

He was confident that the kids could be able to defeat Boo. He explictly states that while it's a terrible risk, he's not part of the world anymore and it'll be better in the long run.

That's my whole point. Goku back then was wise and written in a way that he represented the head of the team. You had the funny panels here and there, but overall he behaved much more like and experienced, grown-up man. Now it's completely different.

Take a look at the scene were he forgets the Senzu. I wouldn't have a problem with it if was presented in a good way, but not, it's just a joke so the kids can have a quick laugh. Or when he had to pee at the Beerus castle, or when he called Zeno while in the future, making funny faces and comments, or how he throws a tantrum and wants to start the tournament just because he's bored.

That's the problem with the character now. He's much more like the early DB days were he was used as comic relief outside of fighting. It made sense back then but now it's just plain stupid.

[HeroR]

Watching Buu Kai and Buu Goku is so much more worse than anything in Super. He left the fate of the Earth with current earthlings because he's dead and technically not supposed to be there yet the whole summoning of Buu was his stupid fault, he pranced around with Vegeta all of a sudden wasn't too dead for that was he.

He could've ended Buu but didn't yet has the cheek to get all prissy from other world when Buu kills and the worst one entrusting two boys who he barely knows to a technique he only knows in theory.

Stops them going in the RoSaT because of potentialities, oh they might need it again in the future, mate you don't wanna kill Buu fine at least go with with them in the RoSaT and make them see the technique through who gives a shit about the future when the threat of Buu is right f**king there!!!!!

I'm yet to start Part 3, but man Buu arc Goku just seems a device Toriyama used to allow the plot to plod along. Bah.

Buu's awakened was more Vegeta's fault then Goku's and Goku was right that the younger generation needed to step up. He also didn't want them to used the Hyperbolic Time Chamber until needed since prior to Super, it had a time limit.

[Asura]

In the Majin Boo arc, he's warned multiple times of what a threat Majin Boo is and how they should prevent him from being resurrected. But he still willingly contributes his resurrection, and when he has the opportunity the kill him he doesn't do it. Why is stupid? Because he could have prevented billions of peoples dying and chose not to under the pretense of "the kids should handle this". Which in the end they didn't.

Well first off, how did Goku "willingly" contribute to Buu's resurrection? He contributed to it, but certainly not willingly. Vegeta was threatening to kill everyone (and already did kill a lot of innocent people) unless Goku fought him. Goku didn't have a choice in the matter. He didn't "willingly" contribute. And for people who might say "But why didn't he use SSJ3 in the fight against Vegeta?" - That's a really simple explanation too. Goku using SSJ3 heavily reduced the time left he had on Earth. If he had used that to fight Vegeta, there's no way he would even have enough time to fight Buu afterwards AND train Goten & Trunks.

Next, the reason Goku doesn't kill Buu is a simple one. He's dead. What happens when he's gone? What would have happened if Buu was released and he wasn't here? He needed to pass the torch down to the next generation and give them a chance at protecting the Earth because (at the time) he knew he couldn't do it after that day was up. Eventually he was revived and was needed to help save the Earth, but in no way, shape, or form was that ever planned from the beginning for him, and I don't think he could have ever seen being revived by the Elder Kai's life to be a thing.

People always try to bring up this example and the Cell senzu example, yet both of them make complete sense and aren't stupid decisions at all. Nothing is even remotely comparable to the borderline braindead way he acts in Super sometimes.

[Eight-Star Dragon]

Goku not knowing what that people kiss on the lips was the straw that broke the camel's back for me. He had two kids and knew enough to appeal to Elder Kai's perverted tendencies. But we're supposed to believe he still doesn't know that people kiss each other on the lips and that Chi-Chi never kissed him on the lips during their 8+ years of living together. Yeah, no. It's completely unbelievable.

[Ki Breaker]

Goku not knowing what that people kiss on the lips was the straw that broke the camel's back for me. He had two kids and knew enough to appeal to Elder Kai's perverted tendencies. But we're supposed to believe he still doesn't know that people kiss each other on the lips and that Chi-Chi never kissed him on the lips during their 8+ years of living together. Yeah, no. It's completely unbelievable.

Kiss isn't required for reproduction, it's highly likely both of them didn't know it's a thing..
It's not odd from their perspective if you think about it as well, why suck on each other's tongue if it's not required to get the job done?

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Watching Buu Kai and Buu Goku is so much more worse than anything in Super. He left the fate of the Earth with current earthlings because he's dead and technically not supposed to be there yet the whole summoning of Buu was his stupid fault, he pranced around with Vegeta all of a sudden wasn't too dead for that was he.

He could've ended Buu but didn't yet has the cheek to get all prissy from other world when Buu kills and the worst one entrusting two boys who he barely knows to a technique he only knows in theory.

Stops them going in the RoSaT because of potentialities, oh they might need it again in the future, mate you don't wanna kill Buu fine at least go with with them in the RoSaT and make them see the technique through who gives a shit about the future when the threat of Buu is right f**king there!!!!!

I'm yet to start Part 3, but man Buu arc Goku just seems a device Toriyama used to allow the plot to plod along. Bah.

Buu's awakened was more Vegeta's fault then Goku's and Goku was right that the younger generation needed to step up. He also didn't want them to used the Hyperbolic Time Chamber until needed since prior to Super, it had a time limit.

Like I said who gives a shit about the future when Buu is right there, worry about the future then in the future, he used the RoSaT with Gohan didn't worry about the future then did he?
The fact the Goku taught them the fusion technique was counter-intuitive to his next generation step up logic, he still was influencing the outcome. Just poor poor writing.
Does not matter who's fault it was more he was still responsible. Yet was his complete fault for falling for the fake truce ruse, utter idiocy. We all knew what Vegeta was gonna do yet Goku didn't.