Episode #0091 (26 August 2007)

Maphisto86 · Post by **Maphisto86** » Mon Aug 27, 2007 2:07 am

I could give my opinion on this subject in detail but I will only state my opinion in a nutshell. I'm a member of the "Goku didn't die" camp pertaining to this debate. I believe he simply joined Shenlong in the afterlife or some other netherworld (perhaps wherever Shenlong likes to go after a wish is made).

There Goku remained a "vessel" and protector of the Dragonballs until one hundred years later. My opinion is probably the same as someone else here. I always post on the podcast thread too late to make an impact on the subject!

Anyway I would rather voice my opinion on the whole video game thing. I (and I do mean me and only me) LOVE the Sparking series. It's fun, it simulates the anime well and it's not hard to play. I played video games for a long time but I always sucked. Perhaps that's why I dig "dial a combo" games like the Budokai and Sparking! series. I also love Super DBZ but not as much as Budokai or Sparking! because I suck at doing the combos.

This is because of two things: one, I don't understand the directions in the game in order to perform combos with all those winding arrows that illustrate the motions. Two, the way to perform a character's moves are reversed every time you turn left or right and the instructions only tell you how to perform a combo if you are facing right. Sorry waaaaay too confusing for me.

Another reason I like the Budokai/Sparking! series is because it engages you into the story of Dragonball along with a few new "what if?" stories thrown into the mix. Now I know hearing about the same story is repetitive and annoying after a while but I'm not as annoyed or bored as Mike Labrie and most of my fellow Daizexer's are. Maybe that's because I have never owned many episodes of the anime or volumes of the manga to view at my leisure. I also have not read the manga or watched the anime or movies as much as my peers have. Still I agree just playing through the story is getting tiresome.

On that note I share Julian and Meri's ideas of a "ideal" Dragonball game. I personally would like a game similiar in format to Zelda: The Orcania of Time. You know, a adventure game. DBZ Saga's had a similiar idea but was clumsily rendered. That's history... Dragonball Online is sort of what I'm talking about but I would rather have the story set either as part of the canon storyline or at least set within the timeline. Perhaps a whole new saga just a couple of years after the Buu saga or even early on when Goku is still a kid. Either way it would involve trying to find the Dragonballs to help resolve some horrible catastrophe, perhaps not a new supervillian like Cell or Piccolo Daimao but some supernatural disaster. Anyway that's my two cents on the matter... maybe a thread should be made on this.

I want to just conclude now with this last opinion piece. My own opinions are not a manifesto stating what other's should like. That is lame just as Mike, Meri and Julian pointed out on the podcast. It's called subjectivity.
I think why some feel threatened by views that run contrary to their own is because the threatened person has doubts about their opinions and/or they care about the opinions of those that threaten them. We here at Daizenshuu EX's forums hold the opinions of Mike(Vegetto EX), Meri and Julian in high regard because they are one of the most popular and knowledgable people in the Dragonball fanbase. They are veteran fan's if you will. That's why their agreement with our ideas on Dragonball matter so much but in the end people have to go with their own, justified opinions. There is no shame in debate or in likeing something different from someone else, even someone you admire or respect.

(whew!) If you read this far, congratulations!!!!

Thanks for caring about my opinions...

TAS · Post by **TAS** » Mon Aug 27, 2007 7:30 am

Um, Shenron isn't powerful. He was killed by King Piccolo and Dende's version is the exact same one as Kami's. Remember, they used the same Dragon.

I'm talking about in terms of what Goku could do, ie Shen Long has the power to bring the dead back to life, give someone immortality, etc, ie he has a great level of power.

I'm not talking about Shen Long's physical strength, that would be idiotic, though it's also idiotic trying to measure Goku in terms of strength after GT as he's no longer something that could determined on a level of strength the sameway the other characters are.

Anyways it's like I said before, he would no longer have any reason to go off and train. It be like Shen Long going off to train, ie what higher form of power could SL hope to achieve (himself) that he doesn't already possess?

Luffy · Post by **Luffy** » Mon Aug 27, 2007 12:15 pm

The only hobby the guy has is to train, so if he don't need to anymore it would be a boring immortal life if you ask me.

TAS · Post by **TAS** » Mon Aug 27, 2007 5:26 pm

The only hobby the guy has is to train, so if he don't need to anymore it would be a boring immortal life if you ask me.

So that automaticaly means he trains, just because you yourself feel his life would be boring?

Goku most likely didn't exist during the 100 years that the Dragonballs weren't around, or he was sleeping/resting much in the sameway Shen Long was.

Saying that he went off to train or was infact training is like saying Shen Long is training or the dragonballs are training.

TheMajinRedComet · Post by **TheMajinRedComet** » Mon Aug 27, 2007 8:57 pm

Frankly, I think that Goku bartered his soul for one last wish from the dragonballs.

Lavender Saiyan · Post by **Lavender Saiyan** » Tue Aug 28, 2007 1:14 am

I'm talking about in terms of what Goku could do, ie Shen Long has the power to bring the dead back to life, give someone immortality, etc, ie he has a great level of power.

I'm not talking about Shen Long's physical strength, that would be idiotic, though it's also idiotic trying to measure Goku in terms of strength after GT as he's no longer something that could determined on a level of strength the sameway the other characters are

Oh I see. I'm sorry. I suppose that is possible. But it's my belief that Goku simpky became immortal. Because having Goku having wish granting power would defy the point of not overusing the Dragon Balls. I mean they overused Dragon Balls when they had to find them. Just imagine begging Goku for a wish.

TAS · Post by **TAS** » Tue Aug 28, 2007 7:13 am

Because having Goku having wish granting power would defy the point of not overusing the Dragon Balls. I mean they overused Dragon Balls when they had to find them. Just imagine begging Goku for a wish.

Goku, Shen Long, and the dragonballs all became one essentialy, so if Shen Long were summoned with the DBs, then Goku would most likely appear as well, and I could also see Goku being the one who decides what the DBs can be used for, ie he would be the one maintains the balance of the DBs making sure that the wishes all equal out to maintain a balance with them so that they (100 years later) no longer run into the same problem they did when Goku went away.

Gaiash · Post by **Gaiash** » Tue Aug 28, 2007 9:09 am

TAS wrote:
Because having Goku having wish granting power would defy the point of not overusing the Dragon Balls. I mean they overused Dragon Balls when they had to find them. Just imagine begging Goku for a wish.
Goku, Shen Long, and the dragonballs all became one essentialy, so if Shen Long were summoned with the DBs, then Goku would most likely appear as well, and I could also see Goku being the one who decides what the DBs can be used for, ie he would be the one maintains the balance of the DBs making sure that the wishes all equal out to maintain a balance with them so that they (100 years later) no longer run into the same problem they did when Goku went away.

That would avoid 7 evil Gokus.

Luffy · Post by **Luffy** » Tue Aug 28, 2007 3:09 pm

TAS wrote:
The only hobby the guy has is to train, so if he don't need to anymore it would be a boring immortal life if you ask me.
So that automaticaly means he trains, just because you yourself feel his life would be boring?

Goku most likely didn't exist during the 100 years that the Dragonballs weren't around, or he was sleeping/resting much in the sameway Shen Long was.

Saying that he went off to train or was infact training is like saying Shen Long is training or the dragonballs are training.

No, no.
I ment that if Goku now is this god like thing and has the ultimate power to protect the earth, i just wonder if he still trains martial arts since he now has the power that can't be comparred to others.

TAS · Post by **TAS** » Tue Aug 28, 2007 5:15 pm

No, no.
I ment that if Goku now is this god like thing and has the ultimate power to protect the earth, i just wonder if he still trains martial arts since he now has the power that can't be comparred to others.

He's not Earth's protector anymore though. He's more like a watcher, similar to Kame, ie mostly observes, doesn't really interact much. Plus he most likely didnt even exist anymore in that 100 year gap, so I don't see how he could have been protecting anything during that time period, not to mention he most likely doesn't even have a physical form anymore.

Goku.Jr and Vegeta.Jr would have most likely become Earth's protector's had it gone on any further with Goku being more Kame like playing a small supporting role

Post by **VegettoEX** » Tue Aug 28, 2007 5:27 pm

TAS wrote:similar to Kame

Just putting this out there...

亀 = kame = "turtle" (pronounced with a short "eh"/"ey"/"ay" sound; see: 亀仙人 Kame-Sen'nin)

神 = kami = "god" (pronounced with a long "ee" sound; see: 神様 Kami-sama)

Lavender Saiyan · Post by **Lavender Saiyan** » Tue Aug 28, 2007 6:42 pm

TAS wrote:
Because having Goku having wish granting power would defy the point of not overusing the Dragon Balls. I mean they overused Dragon Balls when they had to find them. Just imagine begging Goku for a wish.
Goku, Shen Long, and the dragonballs all became one essentialy, so if Shen Long were summoned with the DBs, then Goku would most likely appear as well, and I could also see Goku being the one who decides what the DBs can be used for, ie he would be the one maintains the balance of the DBs making sure that the wishes all equal out to maintain a balance with them so that they (100 years later) no longer run into the same problem they did when Goku went away.

No because the Dragon Balls were stored inside of Goku no one can access them. But after 100 years they were taken out of Goku. Thus Goku is not one with the DB's then. But is still immortal. Shenron likely gave Goku Eternal Youth and Immortality.

Bardock the Mexican · Post by **Bardock the Mexican** » Wed Aug 29, 2007 12:32 am

In my opinion I think what happened to Goku is that he didn't die, but was turned into a spirit and his body changed into a immortal body. His body is not alive as we would know it with him being hungry and being thirsty and needing sleep. It's more like a body in the more ethereal sense than a physical sense. Now, I am going to get into a little further what I mean by this and add some more of my personal input. Taken into context this is my interpretation which may be different from Toriyama's vision for this. My theory is that he became a kind of santo. I think that was the intention all along and even more so because it seems predestined. How? Mostly it has to do with the fact that he is called Son Goku. Son sounds sort of similar to the Spanish title for a santo which is "San" which is put before a person's name. San Pedro, San Marcos, San Lucas, San Juan, San Jorge...the list is pretty long when you add such people like San Esteban (Primero Mártir) and the list is endless acording to the Iglesia Católica Romana (Roman Catholic Church). My idea sounds off the wall even to me and this is one of the times when I have posted despite feeling this way. I usualy don't think of Dragonball like this. I kind of like the idea though, so even though you may disagree with me it's okay. I know we all got different theories as to what happened. The bottom line is that only Toriyama would know or even CARE about such aa dillema as this.
FUTURE EDIT: I plan to include some more stuff about this in a little bit so keep tight, this isn't the last word on the subject yet.

TAS · Post by **TAS** » Wed Aug 29, 2007 8:12 am

No because the Dragon Balls were stored inside of Goku no one can access them. But after 100 years they were taken out of Goku. Thus Goku is not one with the DB's then. But is still immortal. Shenron likely gave Goku Eternal Youth and Immortality.

No, no, and no.

1) They weren't stored within Goku. Goku, Shen Long, and the DBs, most likely dissappeared for 100 years, thus there was no reason to store them anywhere since they didn't exist for 100 years.

2) They weren't "taken out" of Goku 100 years later. They just showed up again after 100 years.

3) Goku is one with the DBs, just like Shen Long is. That doesn't mean that Goku took the place of the DBs or whatever ridiculous conclusion you were making based off what I said.

4) Shen Long didn't give Goku anything. Shen Long an Goku are now part of the same whole, ie the DBs, Shen Long, and Goku are all a single connective unit, but it's not as if each of them has the same function. They can all be one and not be exactly the same, ie you're acting as if them being one is like a fusion where in which seperate parts become one whole, and only one, but that's not the case here. It's as if Goku, Shen Long, and the DBs are now a "team" of sorts, with each being connceted to the other two parts in various ways.

Just putting this out there...

亀 = kame = "turtle" (pronounced with a short "eh"/"ey"/"ay" sound; see: 亀仙人 Kame-Sen'nin)

神 = kami = "god" (pronounced with a long "ee" sound; see: 神様 Kami-sama)

Forgot about that.

In my opinion I think what happened to Goku is that he didn't die, but was turned into a spirit and his body changed into a immortal body. His body is not alive as we would know it with him being hungry and being thirsty and needing sleep. It's more like a body in the more ethereal sense than a physical sense. Now, I am going to get into a little further what I mean by this and add some more of my personal input. Taken into context this is my interpretation which may be different from Toriyama's vision for this. My theory is that he became a kind of santo. I think that was the intention all along and even more so because it seems predestined. How? Mostly it has to do with the fact that he is called Son Goku. Son sounds sort of similar to the Spanish title for a santo which is "San" which is put before a person's name. San Pedro, San Marcos, San Lucas, San Juan, San Jorge...the list is pretty long when you add such people like San Esteban (Primero Mártir) and the list is endless acording to the Iglesia Católica Romana (Roman Catholic Church). My idea sounds off the wall even to me and this is one of the times when I have posted despite feeling this way. I usualy don't think of Dragonball like this. I kind of like the idea though, so even though you may disagree with me it's okay. I know we all got different theories as to what happened. The bottom line is that only Toriyama would know or even CARE about such aa dillema as this.
FUTURE EDIT: I plan to include some more stuff about this in a little bit so keep tight, this isn't the last word on the subject yet.

Well as far as Toriyama goes his opinion on it wouldn't matter much. I mean he's admitted to liking various aspects of GT like the DBs turning against the heroes, and the ending and stuff like that, however with the recent announcement of DB Online (which he is working on) he said that DBO will not follow the ending that GT used, so even though he liked GT's ending, he obviously doesn't consider part of his vision.

DaemonCorps · Post by **DaemonCorps** » Wed Aug 29, 2007 6:58 pm

I listened to the podcast a while ago, but wasn't able to comment until now. This is probably one of my favorite current episodes. It was kinda like the "Goku: There or Not?" conversation in the sense that it takes one event from the show that wasn't exactly made that clear and rips it apart to see if they can make some sense out of it. I'd like more of these kinds of episodes, please

.

As for my own thought about what happened to Goku... gimme a while for that. The whole start of Senior year thing is starting to rub out my forum-posting time.

DaftBrian · Post by **DaftBrian** » Wed Aug 29, 2007 9:12 pm

I have a feeling its like "What happened to Frodo?" at the end of Lord of the Rings Movies.

Lavender Saiyan · Post by **Lavender Saiyan** » Wed Aug 29, 2007 11:24 pm

No, no, and no.

1) They weren't stored within Goku. Goku, Shen Long, and the DBs, most likely dissappeared for 100 years, thus there was no reason to store them anywhere since they didn't exist for 100 years.

2) They weren't "taken out" of Goku 100 years later. They just showed up again after 100 years.

3) Goku is one with the DBs, just like Shen Long is. That doesn't mean that Goku took the place of the DBs or whatever ridiculous conclusion you were making based off what I said.

4) Shen Long didn't give Goku anything. Shen Long an Goku are now part of the same whole, ie the DBs, Shen Long, and Goku are all a single connective unit, but it's not as if each of them has the same function. They can all be one and not be exactly the same, ie you're acting as if them being one is like a fusion where in which seperate parts become one whole, and only one, but that's not the case here. It's as if Goku, Shen Long, and the DBs are now a "team" of sorts, with each being connceted to the other two parts in various ways.

If that were the case and they were all in essence 1. Then Goku could not come around unless the Dragon NBalls were gathered together. For him to do so seems too random in my opinion.

Gaiash · Post by **Gaiash** » Thu Aug 30, 2007 5:16 am

DaftBrian wrote:I have a feeling its like "What happened to Frodo?" at the end of Lord of the Rings Movies.

Didn't the books explain? I haven't read past the first book so I wouldn't know.

TAS · Post by **TAS** » Thu Aug 30, 2007 7:21 am

If that were the case and they were all in essence 1. Then Goku could not come around unless the Dragon NBalls were gathered together.

No because he's tied to each and everyone on the DBs, and unlike Shen Long he doesn't need to be summoned. Not to mention he can obviously travel freely from the DBs as there weren't any around at the end of ep 64, ie if someone has a DB he most likely knows and can feel it, which is probaly why he appeared before Goku.Jr when he tried to use it.

So basicly Goku has close ties to the DB and is also probaly looking over Goku.Jr as well.

The only way we'd know the actual "correct" answer to all this is if TOEI made a continuation to GT, or made some official statement about it.

For him to do so seems too random in my opinion.

More random then him going train (along with Shen Long) after being fused with the DBs and achieving a higher level of existence?

DaftBrian · Post by **DaftBrian** » Thu Aug 30, 2007 12:59 pm

Gaiash wrote:
DaftBrian wrote:I have a feeling its like "What happened to Frodo?" at the end of Lord of the Rings Movies.
Didn't the books explain? I haven't read past the first book so I wouldn't know.

Well, what I mean to say is that imagine if the movie was your only resource. As to say that, acting as if you didn't have a book to tell you whats happening. In GT, we have to go based off of what we see and not what we read.

Some people and writers like to do something cool, and forget about continuity and consistency, and thats my theory.

(((Many an anime have odd endings, that you have to watch a few times (i.e) The end of Paranoia agent, The end of Akira, The end of Eva, and maybe Blue Sub 6.))) <----All personal thoughts, I could be completely wrong.

Kanzenshuu

Episode #0091 (26 August 2007)

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