SSBlue -- people seem confused by it.

[Boo Machine]

SSB is confusing because they present it in a confusing way. First it was "Super saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God." Ok so when Goku, who has absorbed god energy, goes Super Saiyan his hair turns Blue. Cool, I got it.

But then they still use the Gold versions.

Then it's no Ki leakage and perfect control. But they still use the auras which represent the Ki leakage. I still buy it, and the aura looks cool, but it doesn't help matters.

Then in the manga we actually have no Ki leakage in the mastered SSB thing that Goku does. But that's still odd because No ki leakage is supposed to be what Blue was in the first place.

And then Vegeta gets this confusing form by training for it.

So weird. It doesn't really bother me but the form is just weird. Dig the Blue hair .

[Snakeway Skywalker]

Me reading this thread:
[spoiler][/spoiler]

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

SSB is confusing because they present it in a confusing way. First it was "Super saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God." Ok so when Goku, who has absorbed god energy, goes Super Saiyan his hair turns Blue. Cool, I got it.

But then they still use the Gold versions.

Then it's no Ki leakage and perfect control. But they still use the auras which represent the Ki leakage. I still buy it, and the aura looks cool, but it doesn't help matters.

Then in the manga we actually have no Ki leakage in the mastered SSB thing that Goku does. But that's still odd because No ki leakage is supposed to be what Blue was in the first place.

And then Vegeta gets this confusing form by training for it.

So weird. It doesn't really bother me but the form is just weird. Dig the Blue hair .

I actually went over some of this in my post before yours. Ki leakage actually has nothing to do with auras, I re-checked the episode when looking for the official Crunchyroll subs I needed. That's only in Whis's staff dimension where auras are used, and that place is all sorts of weird, since I doubt Goku and Vegeta were intentionally keeping up their auras. The auras may be more a consequence of being in a dimension where your Ki leaking out prevents you from moving.

When Whis first points this out, the animation shows what looks like bits of steam occasionally coming off of Goku and Vegeta, which is what Whis is referring to when he tells them to not let their energy leak out of their bodies.

I also addressed your other point by not including the manga in the first place, and made the distinction between SSB and SS with the "not letting energy leak out" factoid. Vegeta's training, I'm stumped on, but we have to presume that he got access to SSG's power that way somehow, and just does the same thing as Goku.

[GodKaio-Ken]

When Goku explained it I took it as him meaning its the equivalent of a SSG going Super Saiyan. Not that it was literally Super Saiyan with God Ki.

However since then I'm not really sure how it was intended .

[Snakeway Skywalker]

When Goku explained it I took it as him meaning its the equivalent of a SSG going Super Saiyan. Not that it was literally Super Saiyan with God Ki.

However since then I'm not really sure how it was intended .

(continues to scratch head)

I obviously don't want Caulifla to go blue (at least not in this arc), but maybe him quickly attempting to teach it to her could give us at least a "somewhat clear" explanation of what SSB/SSGSS is. That is, if the writers at Toei even understand it themselves.

[GodKaio-Ken]

When Goku explained it I took it as him meaning its the equivalent of a SSG going Super Saiyan. Not that it was literally Super Saiyan with God Ki.

However since then I'm not really sure how it was intended .

(continues to scratch head)

I obviously don't want Caulifla to go blue (at least not in this arc), but maybe him quickly attempting to teach it to her could give us at least a "somewhat clear" explanation of what SSB/SSGSS is. That is, if the writers at Toei even understand it themselves.

Haha I'm not sure what I said made sense but I mean it like...

SSB is to SSG what SSJ is to base, but they arent actually the same thing. I'm sounding like an SAT question now

I thought this because he phrases it as if its the best comparison but not exactly that if I recall.

[Snakeway Skywalker]

SSB is to SSG what SSJ is to base, but they arent actually the same thing. I'm sounding like an SAT question now

I thought this because he phrases it as if its the best comparison but not exactly that if I recall.

"One of these things is not like the other."

No, but your explanation makes sense, and is what I've thought SSB is for awhile. It's just that all these disagreements on what exactly this form is that I've read across this threads an in other places has got me confused. The good 'ol SSJ transformations back in the day were easily explainable (even if unnecessary). For instance, SSJ2 is beyond Super Saiyan, SSJ3 is further beyond, but the SSG and SSB forms can't just be easily summed up like that.

And what's SSR again? Some cool form specifically for Goku Black that he unlocked after obtaining god ki from Goku?

[ChiefWamsutta]

I have got an odd, but potentially revolutionary idea.

What if we were correct and SSBlue WAS JUST "a Saiyan who has the power of Super Saiyan God transformed into a Super Saiyan"?

BUT in the anime Goku and Vegeta learning perfect ki control pushed them to Super Saiyan Blue Completed.

The anime's version of Super Saiyan Blue IS, IN FACT, Super Saiyan Blue Completed because of Goku and Vegeta learning to additionally master their ki!

So Goku and Vegeta learned Super Saiyan Blue in Whis Staff, but with the Ki control he taught them, it became Super Saiyan Blue Completed right away.

[Lord Beerus]

The problem is nobody, not even the Toei writers themselves, have any idea what Super Saiyan Blue is anymore. It's supposed to give Goku and Vegeta nearly God-like power, but now that other characters are seemingly able to match it or fight alongside it like Zamasu/Black, 17, or the various other universe fighters...it seems to have lost all meaning.

Without Toriyama as the primary writer doing things like the manga, nobody has any clue had to balance power levels anymore.

I'm sure Toriyama was asked about how SSJB worked and its power and they probably got told It was up to them. I think Toriyama and Toyotaro even got confused, I assume it is Toei's fault since they brought the gold SSJ forms back. The original idea was Goku had the power of SSG in base because of absorbed God ki and SSJB was the result of that Saiyan going Super Saiyan. I guess SSJB was supposed to be 50x SSG? But they wanted to keep him under Beerus so that got nerfed because SSG fought on par with Beerus. Golden Freeza doesn't have god ki but yet fought on par with SSJB. I think thats where the strength stats and Blue got screwed up. I think giving "God ki" to mortals was a train wreck ready to happen but then they had to have a reason for SSJB's hair color so its anyones guess what really happened at this point. In my opinion SSG is God Ki in base and since it was barrowed absorbing the ki in base gave what we saw in RoF and Goku and Vegeta abadoned the state for whatever reasons assuming they can turn god ki on and off because they can go normal SSJ. Of course i think SSJB is SSJ+God Ki.

Why are you blaming the return of the SSJ forms on Toei?

Yeah. Bringing back the golden SSJ forms was Toriyama's idea. Not Toei's.

Bringing back the SSJ forms seemed to be a last minute change by Toriyama to keep Goku and Vegeta below Beerus, as that is his current intention with the current power hierarchy. It caught Toei and Toyotaro incredibly off guard. But Toei got fucked over the hardest by this because this change in the power scaling happened right after the events of Resurrection F. And by that time, Toei already had several episodes scripted, or at the very least planned, based off of Toriyama's previous mentality where Goku and Vegeta in their base forms were incredibly strong and arguably around the same strength as SSJG. So they pretty much had to roll with that concept until the Future Trunks arc, which incidentally threw an almighty spanner in the work with their approach to battle powers based off of the plot outline from Toriyama. So they had no other choice but to quietly retcon Goku and Vegeta's strength to the needs of the narrative.

Toyotaro's role with manga provided him way more flexibility to handle the scenario. But even he didn't handle it gracefully because nothing has still contradicted or explained what we saw in chapter five of the manga with Goku practically no-selling a ki-blast at point blank range from SSJB after the events of Resurrection F in-universe.

It's all a combination case of lack of proper communication, along with Toriyama having a very late change of heart in the perspective for how he thought the narrative should have been handled. Toriyama obviously wanted to bring back the golden forms, even though originally stated he didn't think Goku would need to transform into SSJ2/3 anymore after the events of BOG. But bringing back SSJ/SSJ2/SSJ3 was in the plot outline, so neither Toei or Toyotaro could ignore it and just had to find a way to roll with it.

[BlueBasilisk]

SSB is confusing because they present it in a confusing way. First it was "Super saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God." Ok so when Goku, who has absorbed god energy, goes Super Saiyan his hair turns Blue. Cool, I got it.

But then they still use the Gold versions.

Then it's no Ki leakage and perfect control. But they still use the auras which represent the Ki leakage. I still buy it, and the aura looks cool, but it doesn't help matters.

Then in the manga we actually have no Ki leakage in the mastered SSB thing that Goku does. But that's still odd because No ki leakage is supposed to be what Blue was in the first place.

And then Vegeta gets this confusing form by training for it.

So weird. It doesn't really bother me but the form is just weird. Dig the Blue hair .

The problem that made that whole idea so confusing in the first place was that Goku transformed into a normal Super Saiyan in Battle of Gods after he absorbed SSG's power. If it was just God + Super Saiyan he should have turned Blue right there.

[Freeza9000]

It's confusing because Goku calls it the Super Saiyan form of a Saiyan who's attained Super Saiyan God and then in the next arc, he's got regular SS and Blue. So, what the hell is Golden SS supposed to be if you don't believe in this two-base theory business?

And don't tell me "Blue is him not leaking ki!" when ki leaking is visualized as having an aura, something the shows still has them do with every form, Blue very much included. There's not much to debate here when Goku & Vegeta can only move in Whis' staff dimension when they ditch their auras, IE stop leaking ki.

It's all the more confusing when SSJB was stated to be a form with a tranquil mind with proper ki control to which it enable Goku to stack Kaioken on top of it yet it apparently drains stamina a lot now?

[TheMikado]

It's confusing because Goku calls it the Super Saiyan form of a Saiyan who's attained Super Saiyan God and then in the next arc, he's got regular SS and Blue. So, what the hell is Golden SS supposed to be if you don't believe in this two-base theory business?

And don't tell me "Blue is him not leaking ki!" when ki leaking is visualized as having an aura, something the shows still has them do with every form, Blue very much included. There's not much to debate here when Goku & Vegeta can only move in Whis' staff dimension when they ditch their auras, IE stop leaking ki.

It's all the more confusing when SSJB was stated to be a form with a tranquil mind with proper ki control to which it enable Goku to stack Kaioken on top of it yet it apparently drains stamina a lot now?

When the writers/creators don't know what they want it to be how could you possibly expect the audience to know what it is.

[The gr]

Is official Tori contradict himself again,whis just said ssb is a form that consume stamina in episode 98, I'm really confused this mean Goku and Vegeta are morons and hipocrites for trowing dabs at frieza

but wait how Goku is still pulling the kkssb like it was nothing ,wow this series is really incosistent

[Snakeway Skywalker]

Is official Tori contradict himself again,whis just said ssb is a form that consume stamina in episode 98, I'm really confused this mean Goku and Vegeta are morons and hipocrites for trowing dabs at frieza

but wait how Goku is still pulling the kkssb like it was nothing ,wow this series is really incosistent

Seriously.
I was pleased to see them go regular super saiyan in this episode though. It seems like forever since the last time they went SSJ1. The people who thought that SSB was a more ki-efficient SSJ form are full of shit, according to Whis. So it turns out Blue is a trump card. Tho, that doesn't make sense for all the times recently Vegeta and Goku have gone blue over nothing...

[AvatarReiko]

It's confusing because Goku calls it the Super Saiyan form of a Saiyan who's attained Super Saiyan God and then in the next arc, he's got regular SS and Blue. So, what the hell is Golden SS supposed to be if you don't believe in this two-base theory business?

And don't tell me "Blue is him not leaking ki!" when ki leaking is visualized as having an aura, something the shows still has them do with every form, Blue very much included. There's not much to debate here when Goku & Vegeta can only move in Whis' staff dimension when they ditch their auras, IE stop leaking ki.

Well, the whole "Ki not leaking" was retconned in this episode when Beerus states that blue has heavy Ki drain

[Ki Breaker]

Well, the whole "Ki not leaking" was retconned in this episode when Beerus states that blue has heavy Ki drain

What?
Screenshot please

[Saturnine]

It's confusing because Goku calls it the Super Saiyan form of a Saiyan who's attained Super Saiyan God and then in the next arc, he's got regular SS and Blue. So, what the hell is Golden SS supposed to be if you don't believe in this two-base theory business?

And don't tell me "Blue is him not leaking ki!" when ki leaking is visualized as having an aura, something the shows still has them do with every form, Blue very much included. There's not much to debate here when Goku & Vegeta can only move in Whis' staff dimension when they ditch their auras, IE stop leaking ki.

Well, the whole "Ki not leaking" was retconned in this episode when Beerus states that blue has heavy Ki drain

Wrong, he said it drained stamina, not ki. We clearly know it doesn't drain ki from Goku's fight against Golden Freeza. It just can't be kept up forever, that's all.

Is official Tori contradict himself again,whis just said ssb is a form that consume stamina in episode 98, I'm really confused this mean Goku and Vegeta are morons and hipocrites for trowing dabs at frieza

but wait how Goku is still pulling the kkssb like it was nothing ,wow this series is really incosistent

Goku said it drained stamina all the way back when he fought Hit though. Re-watch that episode and see for yourself. Still, like I wrote above, this only means it can't be used forever because it can tire you out, doesn't mean your ki level is dropping as you fight like it was the case with Golden Freeza.

[ekrolo2]

Goku said it drained stamina all the way back when he fought Hit though. Re-watch that episode and see for yourself. Still, like I wrote above, this only means it can't be used forever because it can tire you out, doesn't mean your ki level is dropping as you fight like it was the case with Golden Freeza.

How does that make it any different from the other forms? None of them can be kept on forever, Old Kai said as much when he told Goku NOT to transform before fusing with Gohan because it could have some bad consequences.

I don't know, the way the anime keeps portraying it they act like it's better than perfect SS but when they actually sit down and talk about it, it comes off like SS3 and the actual events do NOT support the later at all. There's literally no point that Blue's so-called stamina drain factors into anything besides as a plot device for Goku to not immediately murder stomp someone with it.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Goku said it drained stamina all the way back when he fought Hit though. Re-watch that episode and see for yourself. Still, like I wrote above, this only means it can't be used forever because it can tire you out, doesn't mean your ki level is dropping as you fight like it was the case with Golden Freeza.

How does that make it any different from the other forms? None of them can be kept on forever, Old Kai said as much when he told Goku NOT to transform before fusing with Gohan because it could have some bad consequences.

I don't know, the way the anime keeps portraying it they act like it's better than perfect SS but when they actually sit down and talk about it, it comes off like SS3 and the actual events do NOT support the later at all. There's literally no point that Blue's so-called stamina drain factors into anything besides as a plot device for Goku to not immediately murder stomp someone with it.

Well, it could be that infusing SS with SSG's power increases its physical drain back to pre-FPSS levels, in that it's not initial-Golden Freeza or SS3 levels of drain, but significant enough and shouldn't be used constantly, which is why regular FPSS is still useful, since it has none of the physical stamina drain.

SSB is perfect Ki control, and SS is perfect physical stamina control.

[ekrolo2]

Goku said it drained stamina all the way back when he fought Hit though. Re-watch that episode and see for yourself. Still, like I wrote above, this only means it can't be used forever because it can tire you out, doesn't mean your ki level is dropping as you fight like it was the case with Golden Freeza.

How does that make it any different from the other forms? None of them can be kept on forever, Old Kai said as much when he told Goku NOT to transform before fusing with Gohan because it could have some bad consequences.

I don't know, the way the anime keeps portraying it they act like it's better than perfect SS but when they actually sit down and talk about it, it comes off like SS3 and the actual events do NOT support the later at all. There's literally no point that Blue's so-called stamina drain factors into anything besides as a plot device for Goku to not immediately murder stomp someone with it.

Well, it could be that infusing SS with SSG's power increases its physical drain back to pre-FPSS levels, in that it's not initial-Golden Freeza or SS3 levels of drain, but significant enough and shouldn't be used constantly, which is why regular FPSS is still useful, since it has none of the physical stamina drain.

SSB is perfect Ki control, and SS is perfect physical stamina control.

Pre-FPSS wasn't that draining either really, there's no point where a grade one SS1 just drops from exhaustion, prolongued use or repeated transforming, they just suddenly decided to talk about it like it had those flaws from the start.

Hell, Goku is a total wreck when he first used SS and he fights Freeza for a while and turns it on then back off again in the middle of their fight.