Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[avasatu]

I feel like this episode basically confirmed Goku and Vegeta either have no longer access to their God powered base form, or they refuse to use it for some reason, or Super's power levels really are incredibly bloated and there is only one base.
If there's only one base, then that base would be only as strong as Buu arc Ultimate Gohan.

I'd say they never had a god base, and their base forms are about Kid Buu-ish level. Why would you say their base forms are Buu saga Ultimate Gohan level? Their base forms were about even, maybe a little stronger (or even noticeably stronger if we assume a teamwork boost) than the Trio members individually, and untrained Fat Buu was more than enough for them, even on drugs.



Random stuff addressed to everyone:

1) Goku goes blue vs Nink because the golden haired forms don't create a transformational "pressure." To escape a bear hug from someone much larger than Goku who could be as high as SS1 level in power, no less from a position of extremely poor leverage, Goku needs a transformation that explodes with severe pressure upon conception in order to escape. Enter SSB.

2) If you want to easily justify SSB vs the Trio, you may surmise that Goku's barrier not only stopped Lavenda's poison, but Bergamo's ability. However, during a beam clash, Bergamo's ability would be reactivated since the barrier no longer aids Goku in transmitting energy to Bergamo during a ki-based attack skirmish. Remembering that it took SSB KK to overwhelm Bergamo's ability in the exhibition, and keeping in mind that there are 3 opponents vs. just Bergamo, Goku and Vegeta both go SSB to have a power equivalent to SSB KK which they can be assured will overwhelm Bergamo's ability. This of course presumes that Goku shared this ability with Vegeta pre-tournament, which is more than believable since we already have confirmation of off screen discussion and strategic planning.

3) Not related, but, unlike Goku, I think base Black actually DOES go from a "regular" base to a god ki base between his first and second fights with Goku. This can easily be explained by noting that not only is Goku Black's body much stronger and further along in training than Goku's, but it is inhabited by a combat prodigy god who presumably has access to godly ki more easily and naturally than Goku. From now on, I will assume base Black is basically Saiyan Beyond God black. Ironic, I no longer believe Goku has access to this second base, yet I never thought Black did. Looks like the theories have swapped! This makes SSRose basically just a 50x multiplier off of the base, and all of this together mostly explains the power-scaling-ruining feat on base Black tanking SSB Vegeta and the events shortly thereafter.

[LowRyder2005]

I feel like this episode basically confirmed Goku and Vegeta either have no longer access to their God powered base form, or they refuse to use it for some reason, or Super's power levels really are incredibly bloated and there is only one base.
If there's only one base, then that base would be only as strong as Buu arc Ultimate Gohan.

This clearly can't be the case for more than one reason, however.
It's arguing that base Gohan himself is as strong as Ultimate Gohan, gets the same multiplier as Super Saiyan Goku (probably "some" tens of times) and an "Ultimate" multiplier on top of his already "Ultimate-tier" base. But it is also stated to be lacking "strength" and not just some form. More importantly, Mr. Buu is also far, far stronger than the non-drugged Basil, who could still give base Goku a fight. Following such a logic, a Goku as strong as an "Ultimate Gohan" would've disposed of the entire trio (or at least Basil himself, if for some random reason you have to think there's some absurd gap between the three members) like in a Namek scenario against the Ginyu Squad.

It stands as a fact that the base forms should not be extremely strong by now. Both Goku and Vegeta would only be, in fact, marginally stronger than their Buu saga counterpart when untransformed, bar their godly-empowered base that have - seemingly and yet haphazardly - been put on the shelves by the writing team.
Basically, the only leeway for one-base theories at this point in the show is arguing that Mr. Buu became many times stronger than all other composite Buus strong off-screen, which will inevitably sound filmsy for both in and out of universe reasons.

Either Android 18 and Base Saiyans aren't too apart, or 18 just "trained".

By coincidence, I had Goku comfortably surpassing Android levels in base form up until a little while ago. I admit I have many more reserves by now after their performance against the entire trio, comboed with other stuff like the out of shape Gohan keeping up with the Whis-trained Goku, and Piccolo (supposedly) surpassing both of them. I'd probably peg base Goku and base Vegeta in-between 100% Freeza and #18, with a more conservative esteem - still following the notion that it's kind of hard for them to make gains since they're nearing their physical limits.

[emperior]

So it's safe to assume the God powered base has been retconned out of existence after the events of RoF, where Goku and Vegeta had powered up a lot in their base forms.
Though in episode 94 Goku and Freezer exchanged punches and while Freezer could have been holding back when punching Goku, he was still hurt by Goku's punch and in episode 95 Goku was keeping up in speed with Golden Freezer, before going Blue, in their short match.

It is possible that the Saiyan Beyond God state also drains stamina, almost as much as SSB and more than SSJ, and this is why Goku and Vegeta never use it, though this is just headcanon to try and justify how inconsistent Super has been in depicting Goku and Vegeta's base power.

It seems clear that Basil, Lavender and Bergamo are weaker than base Goku and Vegeta, which could very well be as strong as Fat Buu and it would make sense if we consider the short fight Goku had with Slim Buu. In this case after training Gohan would reach Goku's power in his base and that's why he got so strong in his Ultimate state - plus it would make sense that Goku was able to tank a Buu saga SSJ2 level Piccolo attack in episode 90.

[Bullza]

Goku goes blue vs Nink because the golden haired forms don't create a transformational "pressure." To escape a bear hug from someone much larger than Goku who could be as high as SS1 level in power, no less from a position of extremely poor leverage, Goku needs a transformation that explodes with severe pressure upon conception in order to escape. Enter SSB.

Well that's exactly what we did to escape Toppo's bear grip, he went Blue.

[Marlowe89]

bar their godly-empowered base that have - seemingly and yet haphazardly - been put on the shelves by the writing team.

That's something else I wanted to touch on too -- there's this recurring question of whether Goku's godly-empowered base was originally meant to be a second state of power that Goku occasionally uses in addition to Goku's normal base or if it was always meant to be one base that was simply retconned into being much weaker, but I think a slightly different alternative may have been intended.

Episode 24/25 strikes me as particularly suspect. Goku describes Blue as the Super Saiyan form of a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God (implying that he did obtain that level of strength in base) but then you have the earthlings and King Kai speaking as if Goku was just now tapping into SSG's power with Blue. So was the "godly base" never actually used in combat to begin with, merely being in the narrative out of convenience to explain the nature of Blue? That would certainly jive with Episode 20 at least, where we see Goku and Vegeta briefly manifesting the non-detectable god ki in base during their sparring match even though we never see them doing that again in the series without transforming first. Perhaps that was also meant to be the differently-colored aura around base Goku a short moment before he first transformed into Blue in Episode 24; maybe the characters see it as pointless to use that type of ki in their normal states when it's arguably more convenient to use Blue instead, since that form offers even more power than Super Saiyan God.

It still doesn't explain the weirdness in the Copy Vegeta arc, but it's food for thought.

[emperior]

bar their godly-empowered base that have - seemingly and yet haphazardly - been put on the shelves by the writing team.

That's something else I wanted to touch on too -- there's this recurring question of whether Goku's godly-empowered base was originally meant to be a second state of power that Goku occasionally uses in addition to Goku's normal base or if it was always meant to be one base that was simply retconned into being much weaker, but I think a slightly different alternative may have been intended.

Episode 24/25 strikes me as particularly suspect. Goku describes Blue as the Super Saiyan form of a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God (implying that he did obtain that level of strength in base) but then you have the earthlings and King Kai speaking as if Goku was just now tapping into SSG's power with Blue. So was the "godly base" never actually used in combat to begin with, merely being in the narrative out of convenience to explain the nature of Blue? That would certainly jive with Episode 20 at least, where we see Goku and Vegeta briefly manifesting the non-detectable god ki in base during their sparring match even though we never see them doing that again in the series without transforming first. Perhaps that was also meant to be the differently-colored aura around base Goku a short moment before he first transformed into Blue in Episode 24; maybe the characters see it as pointless to use that type of ki in their normal states when it's arguably more convenient to use Blue instead, since that form offers even more power than Super Saiyan God.

It still doesn't explain the weirdness in the Copy Vegeta arc, but it's food for thought.

The only problem is that, other than Copy arc, in the RoF arc it seemed like Goku and Vegeta were as strong as ever in their base, and Goku evenly fought with FF Freeza in his base. First form Freeza was stronger to SSJ Gohan, who was superior to Piccolo who was at the very least near Cell Games SSJ level. Also everyone shat their pants once Freezer transformed.

If Goku never fought Freezer in his base, Super power levels would make much more sense.

[DBZ Macky]

The only problem is that, other than Copy arc, in the RoF arc it seemed like Goku and Vegeta were as strong as ever in their base, and Goku evenly fought with FF Freeza in his base. First form Freeza was stronger to SSJ Gohan, who was superior to Piccolo who was at the very least near Cell Games SSJ level. Also everyone shat their pants once Freezer transformed.

If Goku never fought Freezer in his base, Super power levels would make much more sense.

Is is too much of a stretch to assume that Goku's God powers just faded from his base form over time? I.e. an in-universe analogy with the guys working on Super slowly grasping Toriyama's intentions.

It makes sense since they rarely use God's power in base after it became obsolete because of Super Saiyan Blue.
It's just like Gohan's Ultimate form getting (presumably) weaker in BoG, even getting weak enough in RoF to be weaker than SS but still stronger than Piccolo, etc.

So it'd be something like this:
BoG Base Goku > SSG Goku
RoF Base Goku > 226x SS Gohan
Potaufeu Base Goku > SS3 Gotenks
ToP Base Goku > Buu arc Base Goku

Chief Wamsutta had a great idea, that Goku's delayed onset Ki disorder (or something) was the in-universe retcon, but he was met with great disappointment when he realized that the Potaufeu stuff still happened. You could say that the disorder didn't straight away bring Goku back to Buu saga levels, but worked its way slowly, like a reverse version of Gohan and Krillin's potential unlock on Namek.

Maybe they still do have God's power and pull off feats like making Hit bleed and resisting Sidra's Hakai Ball, but they can't really control it too well (except when they really need it a.k.a when the plot demands), and need their true God forms, the Bluper Saiyans, to fully harness God's power and even go beyond it?

/headcanon

[avasatu]

Goku goes blue vs Nink because the golden haired forms don't create a transformational "pressure." To escape a bear hug from someone much larger than Goku who could be as high as SS1 level in power, no less from a position of extremely poor leverage, Goku needs a transformation that explodes with severe pressure upon conception in order to escape. Enter SSB.

Well that's exactly what we did to escape Toppo's bear grip, he went Blue.

Toppo was much stronger. There was no need to justify it luckily.

[avasatu]

By coincidence, I had Goku comfortably surpassing Android levels in base form up until a little while ago. I admit I have many more reserves by now after their performance against the entire trio, comboed with other stuff like the out of shape Gohan keeping up with the Whis-trained Goku, and Piccolo (supposedly) surpassing both of them. I'd probably peg base Goku and base Vegeta in-between 100% Freeza and #18, with a more conservative esteem - still following the notion that it's kind of hard for them to make gains since they're nearing their physical limits.

I think this is a little unfair. Beerus implies heavily that Goku and Vegeta as they were should have had no issue with the U9 fodder as is. Their teamwork boost, plus the fact that their ki could no be sensed, compounded by the fact that they were attacking from all directions, made the gap seem smaller than it was. Base Goku was able to fight with the improved Fit Buu, after all, and only lost due to Buu's techniques, not raw power. Of course, I don't meant to say base Goku=Fit Buu, but I think it's fairly safe to have him in the realm of Fat Buu.

This makes good sense if we consider that base Goku was about equal to trained final form Frieza, like, ages ago. I doubt Frieza just had a tiny boost in power from his training. Frieza even mentions Buu as a kind of benchmark, so if I had to guess, we may infer that his final form was in that realm somewhere. Furthermore, if we assume base Goku is still roughly final form Frieza, this must be the case, since Basil wasn't able to body Napapa, yet Frieza did it casually.

Lastly, let's not forget that the manga heavily implies SS1 Goku is roughly Kid Buu level at the beginning of Super. Sure, it's the manga, but it attempts to show us something the show doesn't in that case.

[emperior]

The only problem is that, other than Copy arc, in the RoF arc it seemed like Goku and Vegeta were as strong as ever in their base, and Goku evenly fought with FF Freeza in his base. First form Freeza was stronger to SSJ Gohan, who was superior to Piccolo who was at the very least near Cell Games SSJ level. Also everyone shat their pants once Freezer transformed.

If Goku never fought Freezer in his base, Super power levels would make much more sense.

Is is too much of a stretch to assume that Goku's God powers just faded from his base form over time? I.e. an in-universe analogy with the guys working on Super slowly grasping Toriyama's intentions.

It makes sense since they rarely use God's power in base after it became obsolete because of Super Saiyan Blue.
It's just like Gohan's Ultimate form getting (presumably) weaker in BoG, even getting weak enough in RoF to be weaker than SS but still stronger than Piccolo, etc.

So it'd be something like this:
BoG Base Goku > SSG Goku
RoF Base Goku > 226x SS Gohan
Potaufeu Base Goku > SS3 Gotenks
ToP Base Goku > Buu arc Base Goku

Chief Wamsutta had a great idea, that Goku's delayed onset Ki disorder (or something) was the in-universe retcon, but he was met with great disappointment when he realized that the Potaufeu stuff still happened. You could say that the disorder didn't straight away bring Goku back to Buu saga levels, but worked its way slowly, like a reverse version of Gohan and Krillin's potential unlock on Namek.

Maybe they still do have God's power and pull off feats like making Hit bleed and resisting Sidra's Hakai Ball, but they can't really control it too well (except when they really need it a.k.a when the plot demands), and need their true God forms, the Bluper Saiyans, to fully harness God's power and even go beyond it?

/headcanon

I theorized a while ago that Saiyan Beyond God basically disappeared once Goku and Vegeta transformed into SSB for the first time. I hypotize SbG would be a step to achieve Blue, and the next times Goku and Vegeta tried to use that power they could only go Blue. The same would happen with Black, which would explain why he was able to perform so well against SSB Vegeta before he transformed.
Only Potafeu outright contradicts this, but I believe that's basically how it is in Toriyama's outline. Still a retcon though, and mine is just headcanon as it was never confirmed in the show.

[Desassina]

Prior to Battle of Gods and Resurrection of F, we've had examples of characters powering up from a lower level, and then reveal that they were suppressing the full extent of it. Who knows? Perhaps Goku can go all the way up and then some while in his regular state, like Gohan went above his limits with the Elder Kai ritual, unleashing it all when he probably couldn't on his own. Transforming is only a means to unlock their power, and to let it grow faster by strengthening their forms, but with the cost of putting strain on their bodies. They're shortcuts! SSJG brought him to a level where he could surpass the old transformation by powering up at base, while SSJB is working towards a new realm with the help of Kaioken x10, but one that needs to be accomplished at base. It would be cool if Goku could focus all of his SSJB power into himself like DBS' manga full power at base. It's a recurring theme in anime: to let the original form show in its most powerful state.

[DBZ Macky]

Lastly, let's not forget that the manga heavily implies SS1 Goku is roughly Kid Buu level at the beginning of Super. Sure, it's the manga, but it attempts to show us something the show doesn't in that case.

You keep bringing that up, but I think you might be mistaken (or I might be, lol). IIRC, SS Goku one-shot both Freeza and Cell but wasn't able to win against Buu, and seemed to be losing the fight before being interrupted.

[dbgtFO]

Lastly, let's not forget that the manga heavily implies SS1 Goku is roughly Kid Buu level at the beginning of Super. Sure, it's the manga, but it attempts to show us something the show doesn't in that case.

You keep bringing that up, but I think you might be mistaken (or I might be, lol). IIRC, SS Goku one-shot both Freeza and Cell but wasn't able to win against Buu, and seemed to be losing the fight before being interrupted.

The fight didn't even start.
Saying he's Kid Buu level based on that is quite the reach.

[Triggered Vegeta]

I believe Base Forms have been purposely nerfed. uub obviously won't be SSG + level and I think he'll give Base Goku a run, just like in EoZ. I also feel SS transformations are tiny multipliers now, since when could Bergamo swap hands with SS1 Goku? Transitioning from Base to SS1 should've one shot the trio, it's like there was little to no power increase. There is no scaling in Super, toei doesn't even try to stay consistent. All for the money. Now people will believe uub is SSG level cuz he pushed base Goku back... ep 98 proved Base is fodder.

Should've kept it SSG(Base) & SSB

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Okay, this is going to be a long-winded hypothetical question. Hopefully it ain't too confusing.

When Base Goku fought Freeza in Super, it's accepted that he was utilizing his "Saiyan Beyond God" level of power. Once the fight ended, Goku said: "I thought that maybe I could stay this way and win...but looks like that ain't possible." So unlike RoF, Saiyan Beyond God Goku was about on par with Freeza's final form. The Narrator said Goku surpassed the powered-up Freeza by changing into Super Saiyan Blue. This was also during a time where we assumed turning into a Super Saiyan automatically brought about Super Saiyan Blue because Goku had absorbed the power of Super Saiyan God.

Goku and Vegeta had additional training with Whis+Rosat for 3 yrs, so I always assumed this might've given them ample time to control their powers enough to be able to tap into Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan Blue without much issue. That's the only in-universe explanation I could come up with in explaining why they were back to transforming into Super Saiyans again.

Now for the question: let's say Goku decided to transform into a Super Saiyan instead of Super Saiyan Blue to fight Freeza. Would his power have risen from SBG to Super Saiyan? Would he have gotten weaker instead? Or would his power have not went up at all? I'm just trying to imagine how a fight between Super Saiyan Goku and Final Form Freeza would've looked in Super.

Not just that, but the transition from Saiyan Beyond God-->Super Saiyan Blue seems more coherent than Saiyan Beyond God-->Super Saiyan-->Super Saiyan 2-->Super Saiyan 3-->Super Saiyan Blue.

[LowRyder2005]

By coincidence, I had Goku comfortably surpassing Android levels in base form up until a little while ago. I admit I have many more reserves by now after their performance against the entire trio, comboed with other stuff like the out of shape Gohan keeping up with the Whis-trained Goku, and Piccolo (supposedly) surpassing both of them. I'd probably peg base Goku and base Vegeta in-between 100% Freeza and #18, with a more conservative esteem - still following the notion that it's kind of hard for them to make gains since they're nearing their physical limits.

I think this is a little unfair. Beerus implies heavily that Goku and Vegeta as they were should have had no issue with the U9 fodder as is. Their teamwork boost, plus the fact that their ki could no be sensed, compounded by the fact that they were attacking from all directions, made the gap seem smaller than it was. Base Goku was able to fight with the improved Fit Buu, after all, and only lost due to Buu's techniques, not raw power. Of course, I don't meant to say base Goku=Fit Buu, but I think it's fairly safe to have him in the realm of Fat Buu.

This makes good sense if we consider that base Goku was about equal to trained final form Frieza, like, ages ago. I doubt Frieza just had a tiny boost in power from his training. Frieza even mentions Buu as a kind of benchmark, so if I had to guess, we may infer that his final form was in that realm somewhere. Furthermore, if we assume base Goku is still roughly final form Frieza, this must be the case, since Basil wasn't able to body Napapa, yet Frieza did it casually.

Lastly, let's not forget that the manga heavily implies SS1 Goku is roughly Kid Buu level at the beginning of Super. Sure, it's the manga, but it attempts to show us something the show doesn't in that case.

You could probably argue Vegeta and Goku were saving strength, given that it was mentioned, but the hypothesis still kinda falls short given that they turned Super Saiyan at the end instead of finishing every foe (as a reminder, Bergamo, Basil and Lavenda were the strongest) without losing their base form; which most certainly didn't save them any stamina. But I'd still stop at arguing the writer's intent is clear here.

This fits both in the exhibition matches (see: Lavenda vs. base Gohan being evenly matched) and the latest fight, so it's not like something that creates particular contradictions. There're again Mr. Buu's feats to add to the context: he's able to still tank in anything a massively powered Basil (presentation-wise, at least) can dish out, while Basil's regular attacks are not enough to make him care. Compared to Lavenda making base Vegeta groan in pain when he hit his guts it doesn't sound like the intent is to make Vegeta appear stronger than Buu.
It's not like I don't get what you're trying to say, in the sense that the U6 arc is supposed to subvert expectations about teamwork fighting being useless by DB's standards, but there's also very recent evidence to take into account.

Buu's fight was still implied to be nothing more than a friendly spar with tournament's rules, still; and if the gap between the base forms and the Wolf Trio was any higher I'm confident we would have had Vegeta very casually tanking Lavenda's attacks, while instead they appeared to hurt him if he wasn't paying attention.

Okay, this is going to be a long-winded hypothetical question. Hopefully it ain't too confusing.

When Base Goku fought Freeza in Super, it's accepted that he was utilizing his "Saiyan Beyond God" level of power. Once the fight ended, Goku said: "I thought that maybe I could stay this way and win...but looks like that ain't possible." So unlike RoF, Saiyan Beyond God Goku was about on par with Freeza's final form. The Narrator said Goku surpassed the powered-up Freeza by changing into Super Saiyan Blue. This was also during a time where we assumed turning into a Super Saiyan automatically brought about Super Saiyan Blue because Goku had absorbed the power of Super Saiyan God.

Goku and Vegeta had additional training with Whis+Rosat for 3 yrs, so I always assumed this might've given them ample time to control their powers enough to be able to tap into Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan Blue without much issue. That's the only in-universe explanation I could come up with in explaining why they were back to transforming into Super Saiyans again.

Now for the question: let's say Goku decided to transform into a Super Saiyan instead of Super Saiyan Blue to fight Freeza. Would his power have risen from SBG to Super Saiyan? Would he have gotten weaker instead? Or would his power have not went up at all? I'm just trying to imagine how a fight between Super Saiyan Goku and Final Form Freeza would've looked in Super.

Not just that, but the transition from Saiyan Beyond God-->Super Saiyan Blue seems more coherent than Saiyan Beyond God-->Super Saiyan-->Super Saiyan 2-->Super Saiyan 3-->Super Saiyan Blue.

At the time ROF was conceived, it looks like there was simply no plan to bring the traditional Super Saiyan forms back. At least not yet. You have a pamphlet stating that "whenever a Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God turns Super Saiyan, they turn Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan(s)". It logically follows that - unless there's some egregious mistake in the way it was worded - Super Saiyan Blue was intended to just supersede the Super Saiyan transformation as long as the Saiyans wielded the "power" in question. I'd speculate - in fact, many people speculated a couple years ago - that it could have been a way they elaborated upon Toriyama's intention of slimming down the number of transformations in the series.

Adding a corollary like "Goku can still turn Super Saiyan", which is a characteristic of Super (for the most part; early 2015's Xenoverse - predating ROF - kept post-BOG Goku with the ability to turn into Super Saiyan 1/2/3, but not Blue and interestingly not Super Saiyan God), the logical consequences would end up being:

- Goku has not the "power of a Super Saiyan God" anymore. Which can't be unless there's some other way to turn into Super Saiyan Blue that doesn't involve being "Saiyans with the power of a Super Saiyan God". I suppose, to exemplify, that something like "Goku lost the power of a Super Saiyan God, but after the first time he remembered the way to turn into a Super Saiyan Blue without aforementioned power". I personally think this sounds too convoluted to be the intended meaning.
- Goku has the power of a Super Saiyan God one moment, and not another one. Like some on and off switch.

In short, the gist of both scenarios is that if they turned into regular Super Saiyans, they would not have been using their "godly power". Following this rationale, they would probably become weaker than the "Saiyans with the power of a Super Saiyan God".
It still may sound a tad too convenient - for my tastes - when applying more out-of-universe approaches, as I'm pretty sure whoever wrote Gotenks vs. Vegeta would've been cool with Super Saiyan Goku outperforming Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks, but it's probably the most feasible way the fanbase could address the erratic writing in-universe. Dragon Ball Heroes has also the state a little below the Super Saiyan God, but above Super Saiyan 1/2/3, so everyone could call this a strange case of serendipity in the fanon. At least for those who like the theory.

[spoiler](Glad to see you're laying off GFaqs).[/spoiler]

[Marlowe89]

I think this is a little unfair. Beerus implies heavily that Goku and Vegeta as they were should have had no issue with the U9 fodder as is. Their teamwork boost, plus the fact that their ki could no be sensed, compounded by the fact that they were attacking from all directions, made the gap seem smaller than it was. Base Goku was able to fight with the improved Fit Buu, after all, and only lost due to Buu's techniques, not raw power. Of course, I don't meant to say base Goku=Fit Buu, but I think it's fairly safe to have him in the realm of Fat Buu.

I've already responded at length to this objection. If the base Saiyans were that much stronger than the warriors from Universe 9 (and they really aren't, let's be honest) base Goku wouldn't have commented on having close-calls against base Bergamo during their one-on-one fight in the exhibition match, Hop wouldn't have given Vegeta a good deal of trouble during their brief one-on-one exchange in this episode, etcetera etcetera. This whole episode was extremely straightforward in terms of its general power-scaling so I honestly have no idea why people are trying to overcomplicate it.

Strength was a very real factor here -- that's why Team Universe 9's outnumbering strategy no longer made any difference whatsoever the moment Goku and Vegeta transformed into Super Saiyan. That's what Beerus meant when he called their team weak and it's exactly why both Shin and Beerus spent so much time complaining about Goku not transforming during the past two episodes. They're just individually a bit below base Goku/Vegeta, and definitely within the same general tier of power.

Goku vs. Slim Buu wasn't serious at all and was just a test of Buu's ability to ring-out his opponents.

Dragon Ball Heroes has also the state a little below the Super Saiyan God, but above Super Saiyan 1/2/3, so everyone could call this a strange case of serendipity in the fanon. At least for those who like the theory.

I almost forgot about that. Even if Heroes isn't Super, I think it's absolutely worth mentioning that the "Saiyan Beyond God" transformation provides an in-game power increase between Super Saiyan 3 and Super Saiyan God; that alone should suffice for there being some official advocacy of the theory on some level at least.

[Bullza]

But Dragon Ball Heroes also allows Piccolo to transform into his fused state with Kami too even though it's not a form like that.

On the other hand them having Saiyan Beyond God as being inbetween Super Saiyan 3 and Super Saiyan God would be like what I recently suggested where Base Goku would be above almost every DBZ character but still well below Super Saiyan God.

Super Dragon Ball Heroes also presents the Base Saiyans as being really strong (like they seem in Super) whilst still being able to turn Super Saiyan.

[Marlowe89]

Super Dragon Ball Heroes also presents the Base Saiyans as being really strong (like they seem in Super) whilst still being able to turn Super Saiyan.

Nah, the power stats themselves in DBH and Super DBH are pretty meaningless. There are actually Saibamen that compete with the current base Saiyans.

What I was referring to specifically was the numerical increase provided by different transformation cards -- these were the "multipliers" for each boost:

SS = +2000
Power Stressed = +2500
SS2 = +3000
SS3 = +4000
SBG = +6000
SS4 = +7000
SSG = +8000
SSGSS = +9000

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Great post, LowRyder. Exactly the type of reply I was looking for.

Sometimes I just get these totally random scenarios in mind and have to talk about them.