Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[MKJ]

The wiki post above is very similar to what I have thought all a long. I always have viewed the ssg as a glimpse of what the final form will be and that the flame within gradually went out/dormant(at some point after the Beerus fight) but also opened a door to a new path of development which so far has given us ssb. This is why I view ssb as the vehicle they are currently using to get to the final form via training with Whis. I could go much more in depth on this pov but let's just wait and see how this plays out.

[emperior]

How do proponents of the two-base theory think Vegeta got his second base? Goku upon arriving on Planet Beerus wonders if Vegeta is even stronger than he is and that's before Vegeta really knew what God Ki even was. Goku later lauds and is envious of Vegeta for tapping into the power of Super Saiyan God "on his own", and he wouldn't have a primary base on the same level as Goku if he achieved Super Saiyan God via training. That would defeat the whole point.

That's not wrong, but the two-base theory says Goku and Vegeta can turn on and off the godly power in their base. When they turn it off, they use the golden forms and when they turn it on they go blue. It's basically confirmed by Goku in RoF, when he said that Blue happens when a Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God turns into a Super Saiyan. Now, if Goku and Vegeta always have their God-powered base, how come they can go Super Saiyan 1?
There must have been a retcon from Champa arc onwards, though it's unclear whether the retcon - has nerfed Goku and Vegeta's untransformed state (which is unsopported by Future Trunks' power and Beerus' being surprised by it, and by the recent events of Goku and Freezer exchanging punches when Freezer arrived on Earth)
- has made Blue sort of like a SSJ4, which means the scale would be [SSJ - SSJ2 - SSJ3 - SSB] instead of [SSJ - SSJ2 - SSJ3 - God Base - SSB]
- or the retcon has just made the Godly powered base obsolete (with Copy arc being the exception for some reason, probably because of an error on Toei's part)

After all Toriyama checks the scripts and storyboards and it seems like he was fine with Goku Black being just a little above SSJ3 Goku, which is exactly where many supposed base Goku and Vegeta sit at in RoF. I don't really get what Toriyama is thinking and it seems neither do the staff at Toei. He also included Goku and Vegeta training for 3 years in the ROSAT which amounted to nothing at all (except for Goku using Kaio-Ken in the anime)

[LowRyder2005]

Without any transformations, Goku and Vegeta were stronger than SS3 Gotenks, but even after getting much stronger they are still weaker than the good Boo. How do you explain this?

But do we really know for certainty that Base Goku was weaker than Good Buu? When he fought with Slim Buu he commented that he had got faster than before but Goku was keeping up with him perfectly fine.

Which should mean Goku was also faster than Good Buu so also more powerful.

I think we're starting to go a little too much in circles. Good Buu would effortlessly defeat Basil and still tank everything the massively powered up Basil dished out, while base Goku couldn't even k.o. regular Basil (and both Basil and Lavenda's hits were enough to also hurt base Goku and base Vegeta). This is a conclusive way to gauge two characters fighting the same opponent, just like Gotenks vs. Vegeta was back in the day: Good Buu is stronger than base Goku, just like Super Saiyan Gohan (and Piccolo) are stronger than base Goku as well. This is much more compelling evidence than sparring with Buu - notwithstanding that Goku was still on the losing end of their exchanges most of the time; hence it does look like that, if there was anyone who was taking it easy, it was Buu much more so than Goku.

Given the circumstances behind these three (Gohan, Buu, Piccolo), make it them reach the same kind of strength bestowed upon Goku and Vegeta by virtue of Whis' training/ God's ritual sounds pretty absurd. Even if we wanted to overplay Piccolo's training sessions or Gohan's 101 training sessions (let's not forget that, per Gohan's words, training was interrupted when they were still going through the basics) - while also over-complicating the narrative of Gohan's slacking ultimately diminishing his strength - Majin Buu is, presentation-wise, the same Buu who couldn't defeat Buu arc's Super Saiyan 3 Goku and Kid Buu. Nothing about him being drastically stronger is ever referenced by any character, and yet - to put this in numbers - people would need to have him at least about ten or twenty times stronger.

Besides, if you follow a one-base theory you need to have Lavenda at around Buu Saga's Ultimate Gohan levels, while both Basil and roided Basil would be far weaker (let's say Buu Saga's Super Saiyan 1) - which already seems kind of odd, to me, from a writing perspective - but it doesn't follow that Goku can't k.o. at least Basil by himself, since he'd be many times stronger/faster than him even without going Super Saiyan. It's not like he didn't have any chance to single him out, since the trio starts to use their special technique only around three minutes in. Before they attack Goku one at a time while they're in a stand-off.

At this point, one base theories paradoxically sound odd bot in-universe and out-of-universe when addressing everyone who isn't Goku and Vegeta (while I'd argue the two-base theory at least makes sense with an out-of-universe approach, since it works in tandem with the general idea a retcon took place). The crucial point is that, while two-base theories are almost completely rooted in the fanon's rationalizations of the wonky writing's endeavors, there's also far too much evidence against streamlined approaches to justify them without leaps in logic at multiple points in the narrative, against one - albeit big, if not arbitrary - condition ("regular Goku's strength is x one moment and y the other, because the bases are two").

[ChiefWamsutta]

At the end of the day, this was all complicated by Battle of Gods and how Goku had an SS1 that was equal to SSGod and he had a Base that was equal to SSGod.

Out of these two images, which one do you guys think is how the SSGod absorption process worked? Or is there a third that makes the most sense that I forgot?

1) Was the SS1 form in outer space just the SSGod power not being fully merged? If so, how did the "absorbing god ki into oneself" come into play from Whis Training? Wouldn't the fully merged SSGod-looking Base be Saiyan Beyond God?



2) Or was the Super Saiyan 1 that was holding back the sun ball the result of the SSGod power fully merging? Could it be that then Goku turned back into Base because he channeled the power from the form into the last punch? What would be the Saiyan Beyond God base that he supposedly used against Frieza? Did Goku receive an SS1 form and a Base form that were equal to SSGod?



It's like we have SSGod as Point A and SSBlue as Point B. I am trying to get from Point A to Point B, but I don't know how the Saiyan Beyond God and the Super Saiyan God Radiance forms fit into it. They made this not clear at all.

However, in DBSuper Ep. 24 Dubbed, Frieza says, "So, a Super Saiyan that's as strong as a Super Saiyan God, yet is not a Super Saiyan God, is now the Super Saiyan version of that?" This basically describes scenario two.

[DBZ Macky]

I think:
Buu Arc Goku < SS Goku < SS2 Goku < SS3 Goku
< BoG SSG Goku = BoG SS Goku = BoG Base Goku

I also think Goku wouldn't have increased his power if he went SS2, because if he could, then why didn't he opt to double his power instead of remaining as a regular SS?
So, Post Ritual Base Goku = SS Goku = SS2 = SS3 Goku

Then,
RoF Base Goku < RoF SSB Goku

And so,
Base Goku = SS Goku = SS2 Goku = SS3 Goku < SSB Goku

Whis did say that Goku could still go Super Saiyan but he realized that to become truly strong, he had to improve his base power.

Also,
RoF SSB Goku ~ SSG
Enraged SSB Goku ~ 2x SSG
Post RoSaT SSB Vegeta ~ 10x SSG
100% Mastered SSB Goku ~ 50x SSG

[Bulma's Foot Masseur]

That doesn't account for Gowasu commenting on Goku's SSJ2 and how it made him dozens of times stronger, or whatever he said.

Also, dub Frieza's "as strong as a Super Saiyan God" wording implies that Super Saiyan Blue is attained simply by reaching a certain power threshold, which people should probably get used to since it'll help explain Super Saiyan Blue Caulifla and whoever else gets it. (Goku got it by making SSG's power his own, Vegeta got it by training with Whis, and Caulifla will get it simply by being better than everyone.)

[Marlowe89]

Also, dub Frieza's "as strong as a Super Saiyan God" wording implies that Super Saiyan Blue is attained simply by reaching a certain power threshold, which people should probably get used to since it'll help explain Super Saiyan Blue Caulifla and whoever else gets it.

There is some truth to that, since in the manga Zamasu states that if a Super Saiyan increases his strength to reach and surpass the God threshold, his hair color will change (either to blue or pink, depending on whether that Saiyan is a mortal or a god).

However, Goku's dub line in that very same anime episode you're referring to calls Blue the Super Saiyan level of a Saiyan who taps into the power of Super Saiyan God on his own, which is consistent with the original Japanese line and implies that he can also do it while in base form.

The simplest explanation from all this, and one that keeps the two descriptions consistent, is that Goku can toggle God's power either while in base or in Super Saiyan. If he does it in Super Saiyan, he becomes Blue. If he does it in base and then changes into a Super Saiyan, he'll become Blue then as well. Whatever happened in BoG is probably either an outlier or a conceptual prototype of that.

[Bullza]

Bit then why does he not have God Ki when he toggles it on in Base but he does when he toggles it on in Super Saiyan? That's just weird.

He turned it on when he was a Super Saiyan 2 in the one episode not long ago so that should have been different but it didn't seem it.

If he turned into a Super Saiyan 3 and then turned it on would he be a Super Saiyan Blue with long hair?

[Marlowe89]

He turned it on when he was a Super Saiyan 2 in the one episode not long ago so that should have been different but it didn't seem it.

If he turned into a Super Saiyan 3 and then turned it on would he be a Super Saiyan Blue with long hair?

I don't think that particularly means anything. If you look at the manga, there were instances where he was going from Super Saiyan 3 to God and also from God to Blue even though there shouldn't be any direct connection between those forms.

The reason I'm saying there's a connection between SS and Blue is mainly because that's exactly how Zamasu described it.

[wolflonnie]

Guys, what if the power levels have been HEAVILY simplified for the sake of the story, at least in the minds of Toei, Toyotaro, etc.?
After all, I don't see any of writers sitting there, and be like: "uuhhh the potara multiplier is 10, and then I add Goku x Vegeta... there! Equation solved!".
No, no. I think that the issue with the base forms being so effin' strong is that they generally see things this way, taking in account that there are different writers:

Goku: 1
Goku SSJ: 2
Goku SSJ2: 3

Etc etc. Of course there's Gowasu's line about Goku's power multipling twelvefold of times, but I think that was more like a throwaway line.

What I'm trying to say is that, for them (the writers) Goku is powerful in any form, and his trasformations make him stronger and stronger. Full stop. There are no mathematical equations involved, so that's why to us the PLs appear inconstent.
I bet they think along these lines:

Goku: 1
Krillin: 0.5/0.8
Piccolo: 2/2.5/3
Goku SSJ: 3
Goku SSB: 6
Goku SSBKK: 8
Vegetto SSB: 10

Etc etc. They just have a rough idea of who's very strong and who's weaker, but, for them, a "weak tier" consists in, probably, Krillin, Tien, Android 18, etc.. A slightly stronger one is: Majin Buu, Piccolo, etc.
Is just like the videogames... trasformations make you stronger, of course, but you can still pull it off via base.
It doesn't matter how much a multiplier seems to be applying. Characters trasforming are "just" getting stronger. But there are no realms of power in-between.

Goku's gains, between a saga and the other, are probably like going from 1 to 1.1 or 1.3, or something very simple like that. An increase, a general increase.

Who are we kidding? They aren't doing any mental gymnastics.
Just an idea though.

[ChiefWamsutta]

Also, dub Frieza's "as strong as a Super Saiyan God" wording implies that Super Saiyan Blue is attained simply by reaching a certain power threshold, which people should probably get used to since it'll help explain Super Saiyan Blue Caulifla and whoever else gets it.

There is some truth to that, since in the manga Zamasu states that if a Super Saiyan increases his strength to reach and surpass the God threshold, his hair color will change (either to blue or pink, depending on whether that Saiyan is a mortal or a god).

However, Goku's dub line in that very same anime episode you're referring to calls Blue the Super Saiyan level of a Saiyan who taps into the power of Super Saiyan God on his own, which is consistent with the original Japanese line and implies that he can also do it while in base form.

The simplest explanation from all this, and one that keeps the two descriptions consistent, is that Goku can toggle God's power either while in base or in Super Saiyan. If he does it in Super Saiyan, he becomes Blue. If he does it in base and then changes into a Super Saiyan, he'll become Blue then as well. Whatever happened in BoG is probably either an outlier or a conceptual prototype of that.

Sorry to bother you with this question, haha, but if you were to pick one of the two scenarios I layed out for the forms after the SSGod ritual, which would you pick? I had originally thought the yellow SS1 that kept up with Beerus was the god power not fully mixed yet, but maybe this is like a prototype version of SSBlue. Once Goku and Vegeta learned to keep their ki inside themselves it becomes SSBlue. Then there would be the question of where the godly base would be placed. Do you think when Goku dropped out of SSGod, he received a Base that was equal to SSGod and received an SS1 equal to SSGod? Because, otherwise, I don't know where the godly Base would come from.

[Marlowe89]

Sorry to bother you with this question, haha, but if you were to pick one of the two scenarios I layed out for the forms after the SSGod ritual, which would you pick?

If I had to choose, I'd definitely go with your first diagram. I don't think it really matters at this point because the Super Saiyan state from BoG doesn't actually exist in Super's canon anymore -- it was supposed to be Goku retaining the power of Super Saiyan God, but according to RoF and all of its associated materials, he eventually learned to tap into that power without relying on transformations. We can safely conclude that the strength of that form would later become integrated into his base state, with Blue being the Super Saiyan form of the latter.

So if anything, I think it was most likely the predecessor to "Saiyan Beyond God" and was entirely superseded by that after Whis' training. We needn't concern ourselves over the little details anymore though, since for all intents and purposes it was conceived before Toriyama had properly conceptualized Blue.

[ChiefWamsutta]

Sorry to bother you with this question, haha, but if you were to pick one of the two scenarios I layed out for the forms after the SSGod ritual, which would you pick?

If I had to choose, I'd definitely go with your first diagram. I don't think it really matters at this point because the Super Saiyan state from BoG doesn't actually exist in Super's canon anymore -- it was supposed to be Goku retaining the power of Super Saiyan God, but according to RoF and all of its associated materials, he eventually learned to tap into that power without relying on transformations. We can safely conclude that the strength of that form would later become integrated into his base state, with Blue being the Super Saiyan form of the latter.

So if anything, I think it was most likely the predecessor to "Saiyan Beyond God" and was entirely superseded by that after Whis' training. We needn't concern ourselves over the little details anymore though, since for all intents and purposes it was conceived before Toriyama had properly conceptualized Blue.

Thank you. I think you said this beautifully. Sorry to ask another question, but how do you think the "holding ki inside yourself" plays into all this?

[Animelover5487]

Based off Lilibeu and Napapa struggling with Basil and Napapa being fodderized by Final Form Freeza we can assume U10 isn't a very powerful universe and I don't think U4 is much stronger. I believe Kuririn and #18's performance against them next episode will be a good measuring stick.

[dbgtFO]

Etc etc. They just have a rough idea of who's very strong and who's weaker, but, for them, a "weak tier" consists in, probably, Krillin, Tien, Android 18, etc.. A slightly stronger one is: Majin Buu, Piccolo, etc.
Is just like the videogames... trasformations make you stronger, of course, but you can still pull it off via base.
It doesn't matter how much a multiplier seems to be applying. Characters trasforming are "just" getting stronger. But there are no realms of power in-between.

Goku's gains, between a saga and the other, are probably like going from 1 to 1.1 or 1.3, or something very simple like that. An increase, a general increase.

Who are we kidding? They aren't doing any mental gymnastics.
Just an idea though.

Yeah, videogame logic. I've always believed that to be the case, because that's what it looks like to me.

[LowRyder2005]

Guys, what if the power levels have been HEAVILY simplified for the sake of the story, at least in the minds of Toei, Toyotaro, etc.?
After all, I don't see any of writers sitting there, and be like: "uuhhh the potara multiplier is 10, and then I add Goku x Vegeta... there! Equation solved!".
No, no. I think that the issue with the base forms being so effin' strong is that they generally see things this way, taking in account that there are different writers:

[...]

Who are we kidding? They aren't doing any mental gymnastics.
Just an idea though.

I'd say such an outlook has at least some merit and it's most definitely reflective of what the writing team as a whole follows these days.
In fact, I think it's definitely more grounded in reality than the extremely refined attempts of rationalizing and power-scaling every single "feat" in the show (as in, "what does it mean if Goku can survive a punch from final form Freeza" or "do the speed feats shed light on anything when taken in comparison with the Cell saga").

On the other hand, though, some characters are intended to get drastically stronger when transforming (Saiyans) as per the relative exposition within the show during the Future Trunks Arc; for the most part it's just the writing team downplaying this fact, since probably having a character who's meant to literally appear a hundred/hundreds of times stronger than the other (Super Saiyan Goku/ Krillin) could prove cumbersome when they're both meant to take a stab at fighting the same foe.

[Bullza]

So if Jiren is the mortal above his God of Destruction and Goku's new form is enough to match or even beat him then would we have to say Goku was above Super Saiyan Blue Vegito and Beerus?

[ChiefWamsutta]

So if Jiren is the mortal above his God of Destruction and Goku's new form is enough to match or even beat him then would we have to say Goku was above Super Saiyan Blue Vegito and Beerus?

If Jiren is the mortal, I would say this:

SSNew Goku = Jiren >> Belmod > Beerus > SSB Vegito > Mutated Merged Zamasu

Vegito was slightly above Zamasu, and Vegito was compared to be around Beerus. I still believe Beerus is sligfhtly above. Belmod would be the one to beat Beerus in an arm wrestle, so he is slightly above Beerus. Jiren is probably more than slightly above Belmod, if th is is the case.

[LowRyder2005]

So if Jiren is the mortal above his God of Destruction and Goku's new form is enough to match or even beat him then would we have to say Goku was above Super Saiyan Blue Vegito and Beerus?

Why?
I mean, we don't really know with reasonable certainty how Vegito Blue compares to Beerus, let alone how Beerus compares to this other Hakaishin whose universe has someone even stronger.

EDIT: Oh, yeah, my bad. Forgot about the arm-wrestling and "mortal who's stronger than god who's stronger than Beerus" thingie. The question makes plenty of sense.

[Bullza]

Why?
I mean, we don't really know with reasonable certainty how Vegito Blue compares to Beerus, let alone how Beerus compares to this other Hakaishin whose universe has someone even stronger.

EDIT: Oh, yeah, my bad. Forgot about the arm-wrestling and "mortal who's stronger than god who's stronger than Beerus" thingie. The question makes plenty of sense.

Yeah, that's what I was getting at.

In the manga Shin says that Super Saiyan Blue Vegito may be stronger than Beerus. Whereas Whis made it sound like it was a definite that this mortal, maybe Jiren, was above his God of Destruction, one who could at least be on par with Beerus.

So if it is Jiren and Goku proves to be about as strong as him then it would really put him up there and he'd surpass Beerus finally.

Just in time for the Angels to be the next possible threat.