Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ChiefWamsutta]

So if Jiren is the mortal above his God of Destruction and Goku's new form is enough to match or even beat him then would we have to say Goku was above Super Saiyan Blue Vegito and Beerus?

If Jiren is the mortal, I would say this:

SSNew Goku = Jiren >> Belmod > Beerus > SSB Vegito > Mutated Merged Zamasu

Vegito was slightly above Zamasu, and Vegito was compared to be around Beerus. I still believe Beerus is sligfhtly above. Belmod would be the one to beat Beerus in an arm wrestle, so he is slightly above Beerus. Jiren is probably more than slightly above Belmod, if th is is the case.

Sorry but it sounds completly wrong. I mean I will not buy for even one second that goku can suprass SSB Vegito in dbs in opposite dbs and dbz characters relative scaling. There was huge jump in power between dbz and dbs (that why current goku > dbz vegetto). Same with Merged Zamasu, fusions which are hyped so much so simply above Gods of destructions, just as expections. So for me:

SSB Vegetto > Mutated Merged Zamasu >= SSNew Goku >= Jiren > Belmod ~ Beerus

I honestly believe only Angels are above such powerfull fusions, they are next level to be suprassed by fusions while mortals alone still struggle to suprass gods of destructions. Anyway Current goku and Vegeta as ssb vegetto could be close to angels, this is how goku and vegeta were compared to vegito in dbz so it stay consitent I hope and Akira sticks to it, while neither anime or manga can show it properly, just hints.

It has been clearly stated that Beerus and SSB Vegito are around the same power level. I don't think you power level chain considered that.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

My answer is two things.

One: Gohan's potential. Constant reference has been made to Gohan's latent potential, how much it is, how it could even surpass Goku and Vegeta even after their godly gains.

Two: entertainment. The show is made to entertain, so it doesn't care about these kinds of logic leaps. It bothers folks like you and others, TheMikado, but this clearly isn't enough to sink the show.

[TheMikado]

My answer is two things.

One: Gohan's potential. Constant reference has been made to Gohan's latent potential, how much it is, how it could even surpass Goku and Vegeta even after their godly gains.

Two: entertainment. The show is made to entertain, so it doesn't care about these kinds of logic leaps. It bothers folks like you and others, TheMikado, but this clearly isn't enough to sink the show.

Well we are having this discussion in the power debate thread, not the Super ratings thread so whether it sinks the show or not is irrelevant in this thread. The question is how powerful are they and how powerful should they actually be?

[ChiefWamsutta]

My answer is two things.

One: Gohan's potential. Constant reference has been made to Gohan's latent potential, how much it is, how it could even surpass Goku and Vegeta even after their godly gains.

Two: entertainment. The show is made to entertain, so it doesn't care about these kinds of logic leaps. It bothers folks like you and others, TheMikado, but this clearly isn't enough to sink the show.

Well we are having this discussion in the power debate thread, not the Super ratings thread so whether it sinks the show or not is irrelevant in this thread. The question is how powerful are they and how powerful should they actually be?

I personally believe that Base Gohan = Base Goku < SS1 Gohan = SS1 Goku < SS2 Gohan = SS2 Goku << Ultimate Gohan < SSBlue Goku < SSBlue KK Goku

[TheMikado]

My answer is two things.

One: Gohan's potential. Constant reference has been made to Gohan's latent potential, how much it is, how it could even surpass Goku and Vegeta even after their godly gains.

Two: entertainment. The show is made to entertain, so it doesn't care about these kinds of logic leaps. It bothers folks like you and others, TheMikado, but this clearly isn't enough to sink the show.

Well we are having this discussion in the power debate thread, not the Super ratings thread so whether it sinks the show or not is irrelevant in this thread. The question is how powerful are they and how powerful should they actually be?

I personally believe that Base Gohan = Base Goku < SS1 Gohan = SS1 Goku < SS2 Gohan = SS2 Goku << Ultimate Gohan < SSBlue Goku < SSBlue KK Goku

Right so in the corresponding forms they are basically equal, but given how fair their power levels should be in RoF where SSJ Gohan is getting owned by 1st from Frieza while base Goku handles final form Frieza how can their bases be equal? It's not like Goku stopped training or Gohan was training continuously afterwards as can be seen in the Future Trunks arc.

[ssbgoku]

Well we are having this discussion in the power debate thread, not the Super ratings thread so whether it sinks the show or not is irrelevant in this thread. The question is how powerful are they and how powerful should they actually be?

I personally believe that Base Gohan = Base Goku < SS1 Gohan = SS1 Goku < SS2 Gohan = SS2 Goku << Ultimate Gohan < SSBlue Goku < SSBlue KK Goku

Right so in the corresponding forms they are basically equal, but given how fair their power levels should be in RoF where SSJ Gohan is getting owned by 1st from Frieza while base Goku handles final form Frieza how can their bases be equal? It's not like Goku stopped training or Gohan was training continuously afterwards as can be seen in the Future Trunks arc.

[ChiefWamsutta]

Well we are having this discussion in the power debate thread, not the Super ratings thread so whether it sinks the show or not is irrelevant in this thread. The question is how powerful are they and how powerful should they actually be?

I personally believe that Base Gohan = Base Goku < SS1 Gohan = SS1 Goku < SS2 Gohan = SS2 Goku << Ultimate Gohan < SSBlue Goku < SSBlue KK Goku

Right so in the corresponding forms they are basically equal, but given how fair their power levels should be in RoF where SSJ Gohan is getting owned by 1st from Frieza while base Goku handles final form Frieza how can their bases be equal? It's not like Goku stopped training or Gohan was training continuously afterwards as can be seen in the Future Trunks arc.

This is my personal belief, but I see that as: Saiyan Beyond God Goku. You don't have to subscribe to that idea, but I personally think it is easier.

I now see Ultimate Gohan as strong enough to SBG Goku since SSBlue KK overwhelmed him.

Base Gohan = Base Goku < SS1 Gohan = SS1 Goku < SS2 Gohan = SS2 Goku < SS3 Goku << Ultimate Gohan = SBG Goku < SSBlue Goku < SSBlue KK Goku

[TheOne]

If Jiren is the mortal, I would say this:

SSNew Goku = Jiren >> Belmod > Beerus > SSB Vegito > Mutated Merged Zamasu

Vegito was slightly above Zamasu, and Vegito was compared to be around Beerus. I still believe Beerus is sligfhtly above. Belmod would be the one to beat Beerus in an arm wrestle, so he is slightly above Beerus. Jiren is probably more than slightly above Belmod, if th is is the case.

I think it's very clear Jiren is most certainty not the mortal you are speaking of.

I don't know why people are still treating this as the gospel truth.

How do you know about that? Everyone here is speculating. It's perfectly possible to be or not to be him. Giving the hype he is receiving lately, he is the first to come in mind, but it could be someone from the 4 high-ranked universes.

It's definitely someone from the other universes. Someone of this caliber in THIS tournament would be game over for anyone. Goku somehow beating the guy who is stronger than a God of Destruction is way too far in the future. They're not going to make Goku so overpowered that he has nowhere else to go just a few arcs in before the EOZ.

People are hyping him up because he's Gokus rival this arc. He's SUPPOSED to be be powerful. Strong enough for Goku to have to go above and beyond.

People in the Dragon Ball fan base overthink things to the point where it comes across as just ridiculous. This is one of those instances where nobody takes things at face value.

When Goku asks if they can win the tournament he says he doesn't know, however there is a mortal in which a God of Destruction can not even defeat. The fan base thought this was up for interpretation. Instead of seeing it as a future arc, they see "well it has to be Jiren.."

Whis never stated where this guy was. If this guy was in this tournament, I firmly believe Whis would've told him "Absolutely not." No amount of "team work" and "friend powe" will close that gap. Goku can't compete with any of the Gods of Destruction. Period.

[TheOne]

If Jiren is the mortal, I would say this:

SSNew Goku = Jiren >> Belmod > Beerus > SSB Vegito > Mutated Merged Zamasu

Vegito was slightly above Zamasu, and Vegito was compared to be around Beerus. I still believe Beerus is sligfhtly above. Belmod would be the one to beat Beerus in an arm wrestle, so he is slightly above Beerus. Jiren is probably more than slightly above Belmod, if th is is the case.

Sorry but it sounds completly wrong. I mean I will not buy for even one second that goku can suprass SSB Vegito in dbs in opposite dbs and dbz characters relative scaling. There was huge jump in power between dbz and dbs (that why current goku > dbz vegetto). Same with Merged Zamasu, fusions which are hyped so much so simply above Gods of destructions, just as expections. So for me:

SSB Vegetto > Mutated Merged Zamasu >= SSNew Goku >= Jiren > Belmod ~ Beerus

I honestly believe only Angels are above such powerfull fusions, they are next level to be suprassed by fusions while mortals alone still struggle to suprass gods of destructions. Anyway Current goku and Vegeta as ssb vegetto could be close to angels, this is how goku and vegeta were compared to vegito in dbz so it stay consitent I hope and Akira sticks to it, while neither anime or manga can show it properly, just hints.

It has been clearly stated that Beerus and SSB Vegito are around the same power level. I don't think you power level chain considered that.

Umm... What? I don't ever recall that being a fact

[Bullza]

It's an odd remark for Whis to mention a mortal who can beat a God of Destruction if it weren't intended to be someone at the Tournament.

Jiren already easily dismissed the God of Destruction's "attack" before the Tournament as well.

Rou made it sound uncertain that Sidra could easily handle Golden Frieza.

Vegito and so possibly Merged Zamasu are probably on par with Beerus and Trunks easily beat Merged Zamasu.

I don't think they're that much stronger than the mortals as some people think. If that comment about Goku's new form and it being an end to the realm of the Gods that could also suggests something.

[ssbgoku]

Well we are having this discussion in the power debate thread, not the Super ratings thread so whether it sinks the show or not is irrelevant in this thread. The question is how powerful are they and how powerful should they actually be?

I personally believe that Base Gohan = Base Goku < SS1 Gohan = SS1 Goku < SS2 Gohan = SS2 Goku << Ultimate Gohan < SSBlue Goku < SSBlue KK Goku

Right so in the corresponding forms they are basically equal, but given how fair their power levels should be in RoF where SSJ Gohan is getting owned by 1st from Frieza while base Goku handles final form Frieza how can their bases be equal? It's not like Goku stopped training or Gohan was training continuously afterwards as can be seen in the Future Trunks arc.

Well I find 1st form Frieeza being above rof ssj gohan outlier, or taking advantage of gohan's stamina falling down and having hard time to control his power while being transformed as ss, that if it wasn't retconned at all.

Fourth form Frieeza > Third Form Frieeza > Second Form Frieeza ~ full power rof ssj gohan > ssj gotenks > First Form Frieeza >= droping down rof ssj gohan >> damaged rof ssj gohan

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I personally believe that Base Gohan = Base Goku < SS1 Gohan = SS1 Goku < SS2 Gohan = SS2 Goku << Ultimate Gohan < SSBlue Goku < SSBlue KK Goku

Right so in the corresponding forms they are basically equal, but given how fair their power levels should be in RoF where SSJ Gohan is getting owned by 1st from Frieza while base Goku handles final form Frieza how can their bases be equal? It's not like Goku stopped training or Gohan was training continuously afterwards as can be seen in the Future Trunks arc.

Well I find 1st form Frieeza being above rof ssj gohan outlier, or taking advantage of gohan's stamina falling down and having hard time to control his power while being transformed as ss, that if it wasn't retconned at all.

Fourth form Frieeza > Third Form Frieeza > Second Form Frieeza ~ full power rof ssj gohan > ssj gotenks > First Form Frieeza >= droping down rof ssj gohan >> damaged rof ssj gohan

I personally have First Form Freeza to be roughly equal to SS Gohan back then, and my headcanon is that Freeza's strength between forms isn't that massive anymore (i.e. his Final Form is only 4 times stronger than his First Form for me personally), so him and Goku and Vegeta at the time could be weaker than SS3 Gotenks until after the Universe 6/7 Tournament, where they just barely edged out the little brat, and then got stronger since then.

[ChiefWamsutta]

Sorry but it sounds completly wrong. I mean I will not buy for even one second that goku can suprass SSB Vegito in dbs in opposite dbs and dbz characters relative scaling. There was huge jump in power between dbz and dbs (that why current goku > dbz vegetto). Same with Merged Zamasu, fusions which are hyped so much so simply above Gods of destructions, just as expections. So for me:

SSB Vegetto > Mutated Merged Zamasu >= SSNew Goku >= Jiren > Belmod ~ Beerus

I honestly believe only Angels are above such powerfull fusions, they are next level to be suprassed by fusions while mortals alone still struggle to suprass gods of destructions. Anyway Current goku and Vegeta as ssb vegetto could be close to angels, this is how goku and vegeta were compared to vegito in dbz so it stay consitent I hope and Akira sticks to it, while neither anime or manga can show it properly, just hints.

It has been clearly stated that Beerus and SSB Vegito are around the same power level. I don't think you power level chain considered that.

Umm... What? I don't ever recall that being a fact

Shin said it in the DBSuper Manga when Vegito Blue formed.

[TheOne]

It has been clearly stated that Beerus and SSB Vegito are around the same power level. I don't think you power level chain considered that.

Umm... What? I don't ever recall that being a fact

Shin said it in the DBSuper Manga when Vegito Blue formed.

Shin on multiple occasions has proven to be pretty incompetent. I'm pretty sure Shin has no clue whatsoever about where Beeruses limits are. I'm positive this was said just for affect and drama.

Second, you're referring to the manga. The anime has made it very transparent that there's still a ginormous gap between the mortals and gods of Destruction, with the exception of one.

[ChiefWamsutta]

Umm... What? I don't ever recall that being a fact

Shin said it in the DBSuper Manga when Vegito Blue formed.

Shin on multiple occasions has proven to be pretty incompetent. I'm pretty sure Shin has no clue whatsoever about where Beeruses limits are. I'm positive this was said just for affect and drama.

Second, you're referring to the manga. The anime has made it very transparent that there's still a ginormous gap between the mortals and gods of Destruction, with the exception of one.

Whatever you want, haha. I disagree heavily that SSB Vegito, Mutated Merged Zamasu, and SSRage Sword of Hope Trunks are stronger than Beerus; I believe they are slightly below. Do whatever you want though, haha.

[Bullza]

Didn't Piccolo say that, Tien, Krillin, Roshi and Super Saiyan Gohan all fighting together didn't stand a chance against First Form Frieza?

I'm sure he said he was on a whole other level.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Didn't Piccolo say that, Tien, Krillin, Roshi and Super Saiyan Gohan all fighting together didn't stand a chance against First Form Frieza?

I'm sure he said he was on a whole other level.

Well, then I can modify my original statement and have Freeza twice as strong as SS Gohan at the time. If he's comparable to Gotenks in similar forms, then Gohan would've needed SS2 to take on First Form Freeza, if one goes along with my opinion on the matter.

And if we continue to go along with my assumptions, that would make Final Form Freeza and base Goku/Vegeta exactly as strong as SS3 Gotenks during that particular point in the series, and then improved afterwards.

[wolflonnie]

That depends on how strong Gohan got after being re-trained by Piccolo. I'm personally of the opinion that Gohan improved enough to be as strong as Piccolo in base form a.k.a. equal to Goku.

Thus, if he were to go Ultimate with the same kind of boost this power-up originally gave to his weaker-than-Freeza base form on top of this current base power, it'd rival SSB's boost to Goku's power currently.

Right so how in the hell did Base Gohan and Piccolo possibly get way stronger than even SSJ3 Gotenks following the events of RoF???

Both trained A LOT after said events, Piccolo even more than Gohan. Yeah yeah, "no precedence" and "makes no sense", but that's what we're working with right now, alright?

I estimated that Piccolo could've gotten as much as 8 times stronger than his original power and still be no match for Buu in raw power during the Universe 6/7 Tournament. That was about 6-8 months of intensive training, especially since he was sparring with Gohan for a lot of that time. Two more boosts like that up until the Universal Survival Arc, and one could make the case that Piccolo could indeed have reached base Goku's level.

Gohan himself could've gotten as much as 4 times stronger and still be below his original Ultimate power, assuming he was comparable to Gotenks in similar forms during RoF. Thus, he only has to make up the difference of a few hundred. His body was trained relatively well up until that point, but his mind wasn't. Once that mental barrier was gone, you could make the case that his latent potential allowed him to easily make the gains he would've made if he had constantly trained and honed his Ultimate power up until that point. If we're allowed to have Ultimate Gohan go from beating out Super Buu to trading blows with SSB Goku, I think this little wrinkle to justify the former is an acceptable logic break.

Like I said above, there's no precedence or logic to these, but that's what we're working with.

That's what I've been thinking too. Gohan's trainings all seem futile except the one we saw with Piccolo.
His gains make no sense UNLESS Gohan was actually powering up during each session, but his mental barriers couldn't just bring him to certain degrees of power.
Plus, he also had mental barriers back then, when he was facing Super Buu. So basically the training with Piccolo was THIS effective because:

1) He actually trained more, in comparison to the Buu saga. But instead of just increasing his ki and getting stronger, he "stored" these gains because of mental barriers, and:
2) He broke mental barriers he had even back then. So the Ultimate boost was overall more effective.

If you see things this way, Gohan's gains are suddenly less absurd.

[wolflonnie]

Right so how in the hell did Base Gohan and Piccolo possibly get way stronger than even SSJ3 Gotenks following the events of RoF???

Both trained A LOT after said events, Piccolo even more than Gohan. Yeah yeah, "no precedence" and "makes no sense", but that's what we're working with right now, alright?

I estimated that Piccolo could've gotten as much as 8 times stronger than his original power and still be no match for Buu in raw power during the Universe 6/7 Tournament. That was about 6-8 months of intensive training, especially since he was sparring with Gohan for a lot of that time. Two more boosts like that up until the Universal Survival Arc, and one could make the case that Piccolo could indeed have reached base Goku's level.

Gohan himself could've gotten as much as 4 times stronger and still be below his original Ultimate power, assuming he was comparable to Gotenks in similar forms during RoF. Thus, he only has to make up the difference of a few hundred. His body was trained relatively well up until that point, but his mind wasn't. Once that mental barrier was gone, you could make the case that his latent potential allowed him to easily make the gains he would've made if he had constantly trained and honed his Ultimate power up until that point. If we're allowed to have Ultimate Gohan go from beating out Super Buu to trading blows with SSB Goku, I think this little wrinkle to justify the former is an acceptable logic break.

Like I said above, there's no precedence or logic to these, but that's what we're working with.

That's what I've been thinking too. Gohan's trainings all seem futile except the one we saw with Piccolo.
His gain make no sense UNLESS Gohan was actually powering up during each training session, but his mental barriers couldn't just bring him to certain degrees of power.
Plus, he also had mental barriers back then, when he was facing Super Buu. So basically the training with Piccolo was THIS effective because:

1) He actually trained more, in comparison to the Buu saga. But instead of just increasing his ki and getting stronger, he "stored" these gains because of mental barriers, and:
2) He broke mental barriers he had even back then. So the Ultimate boost was overall more effective than when during the Buu saga.

If you see things this way, Gohan's gains are suddenly less absurd.

Also perhaps he never actually lost his powers. It was just him bringing himself down in the belief he's not a fighter, he doesn't like to fight bla bla bla.
It's actually kind of realistic. If you don't really have the will of do something, and not even the convinction, you won't perform as good as when you do. Plus remember that, as a kid, Gohan was traumatized more than one time. How can you blame him.

[ssbgoku]

Didn't Piccolo say that, Tien, Krillin, Roshi and Super Saiyan Gohan all fighting together didn't stand a chance against First Form Frieza?

I'm sure he said he was on a whole other level.

Gohan power was retconn in dbs, that all I have to say after seeing him train with Picoolo and finally getting back to ultimate level from buu arc.
It automatically retconn frieeza (forms below final form at least, or even final too, just leaving golden where it was), same with Base goku, vegeta and their relative standing to buu. It is simple, Akira changed his mind