So the tournament is already too Goku-centered, why bring the older cast back?

[TekTheNinja]

This is the exact same discussion that's happened many times before on here, so I'm not going to go over why the cast NEEDS to be relevant again because I've been over it several times already and it should be pretty self explanatory anyway. What I will say is I've seen a lot of people on this thread and others defending bad writing with things like, "just deal with it," and "don't like it,don't watch it," which are and will always be horrible arguments that are simply used to silence valid complaints. I've also seen that several people who defend how Goku centric Super is are the same people who complain that GT is "Goku Time," so that's pretty hypocritical. Just saying.

[Jigurashi]

It's expanded okay, but could be a lot better. Think of all the time devoted to the same old with Goku, that could go into expanding the settings of other universes, or the rest of the z warriors. If Goku is such a great character and such a powerful brand, he shouldn't have to hog the spotlight in almost every episode. Seriously, how are people not sick of him by now?

I'm not sick of him because I find him currently the most interesting character. This saga is also clearly doing something with him which is why I'm invested in his character, I can't say the same for any of the other U7 members barring maybe Gohan and Freeza. May be a minority opinion but I find current Goku the most interesting he's been since he was a kid. Haven't been so invested with he character since then. The others aren't being built up for something the way Goku, Gohan, and Freeza are.

Tenshinhan I find to be the most boring and uninteresting character in the series, I also find Vegeta incredibly boring in Super too making me apathetic towards him and Ten, and I'm neutral on everyone else. For me, the series (in Super) doesn't do anything interesting with most of the characters and when they have the potential to they had dropped the ball (for example Ten having his own dojo. A perfect opportunity to make him more interesting but that failed).

They never tried to make him interesting, otherwise, they would have developed his alien ancestry.

They really could have done more with Tenshinhan, and it really is a shame that they just chose to do nothing with him post-23rd Budokai. He could have easily been one of the most interesting characters in the series, but nothing came of it. They did nothing with him afterwards.

This is the exact same discussion that's happened many times before on here, so I'm not going to go over why the cast NEEDS to be relevant again because I've been over it several times already and it should be pretty self explanatory anyway. What I will say is I've seen a lot of people on this thread and others defending bad writing with things like, "just deal with it," and "don't like it,don't watch it," which are and will always be horrible arguments that are simply used to silence valid complaints. I've also seen that several people who defend how Goku centric Super is are the same people who complain that GT is "Goku Time," so that's pretty hypocritical. Just saying.

Not really since in GT Goku was the only one to actually defeat anyone worth mentioning or the top threat, and there really wasn't anyone else in GT that was comparable to him in screen time. Unlike in Super where Goku hasn't beaten Beerus, Freeza, Hitto, Goku Black, or M-Zamasu. Then there's the fact that Vegeta pretty much shared the screen time with him for all throughout Super up until this saga where Gohan has been getting comparable screen time. It really isn't all that hypocritical at all. OG DB is the closest any of the canon DB series are to GT.

[TekTheNinja]

OG DB is the closest any of the canon DB series are to GT.

Not at all. The main earthlings were all useful. (Except for Chiaotzu, who no one really cares about) It's not necessarily about who gets a main villain kill or anything like that. It's about them being on screen and doing memorable things that are cool and useful.

[Simere]

This is the exact same discussion that's happened many times before on here, so I'm not going to go over why the cast NEEDS to be relevant again because I've been over it several times already and it should be pretty self explanatory anyway. What I will say is I've seen a lot of people on this thread and others defending bad writing with things like, "just deal with it," and "don't like it,don't watch it," which are and will always be horrible arguments that are simply used to silence valid complaints.

You got overly attached to secondary characters and now you won't let go when they've outlived their usefulness to the story. Which is Goku's story, do remember.

[TekTheNinja]

This is the exact same discussion that's happened many times before on here, so I'm not going to go over why the cast NEEDS to be relevant again because I've been over it several times already and it should be pretty self explanatory anyway. What I will say is I've seen a lot of people on this thread and others defending bad writing with things like, "just deal with it," and "don't like it,don't watch it," which are and will always be horrible arguments that are simply used to silence valid complaints.

You got overly attached to secondary characters and now you won't let go when they've outlived their usefulness to the story. Which is Goku's story, do remember.

Well first of all that response oozes with bad attitude. Second, It makes for a much more interesting story with multiple relevant characters, and they've only 'outlived their usefulness' due to bad writing. Third, as the topic title asks, if they aren't going to actually use the characters, why the fuck are they here? I'd rather they go the way of launch rather than stick around just to be teased to be useful just to be fucked over time and time again. That's not good storytelling! Actually use your awesome colorful cast or don't! You can't sail half mast like that. Fourth and finally, maybe it would be more tolerable if the main character of Super was actually Goku rather than this bland asshole who lacks any real character traits other than being an asshole who doesn't give a fuck. This is the main reason why I think GT did better with using very few characters besides Goku. In GT I never wished Goku would die a horrible death.

[Simere]

Well first of all that response oozes with bad attitude.

I don't apologize for the way I said it, but there's little I hate more than being told something I didn't need to be, and I do apologize if you didn't. Many do.

Second, It makes for a much more interesting story with multiple relevant characters, and they've only 'outlived their usefulness' due to bad writing.

We have multiple relevant characters, just not the same ones. There's nothing inherently bad about secondary characters failing to keep pace with the protagonist. Secondary characters don't have some right to be perpetually useful. The story can and will dispose of them as soon as they no longer serve their function. That function was, primarily, to provide a challenge to Goku. Goku surpassed those challenges and was given new characters to serve that role.

Could it have been written in a way that they didn't fall so far behind? Of course. Is it bad storytelling that it wasn't?

You were talking about valid complaints earlier. Is it valid to criticize a story for not telling the one you wanted to hear? Is it valid to criticize Breaking Bad for focusing on Walt when I think Gus is much more interesting? Is it valid to criticize Lord of the Rings for not being like A Song of Ice and Fire? Everyone has their own tastes for what's good, of course, and those are valid reasons to say you don't like a story. But to say it's bad storytelling when it's just different storytelling is trying to establish some objective standard that doesn't exist.

Third, as the topic title asks, if they aren't going to actually use the characters, why the fuck are they here? I'd rather they go the way of launch rather than stick around just to be teased to be useful just to be fucked over time and time again. That's not good storytelling! Actually use your awesome colorful cast or don't! You can't sail half mast like that.

First of all, precita is the most overreactive person on these forums. He made this thread after the first episode of the tournament where Goku was hardly the only focus. We have little idea what's ultimately going to end up being the case.

But, as I've been predicting for months, these characters indeed won't end up mattering. And yes, that is bad storytelling. But the first stroke of bad storytelling was to even try making them relevant in the first place. If they actually were relevant, if they actually could do anything, that would undermine the rest of the series that showed them being unable. The rules of this tournament aren't so unique that those old precedents shouldn't apply.

[SsjCookie]

This is the exact same discussion that's happened many times before on here, so I'm not going to go over why the cast NEEDS to be relevant again because I've been over it several times already and it should be pretty self explanatory anyway. What I will say is I've seen a lot of people on this thread and others defending bad writing with things like, "just deal with it," and "don't like it,don't watch it," which are and will always be horrible arguments that are simply used to silence valid complaints.

You got overly attached to secondary characters and now you won't let go when they've outlived their usefulness to the story. Which is Goku's story, do remember.

Well first of all that response oozes with bad attitude. Second, It makes for a much more interesting story with multiple relevant characters, and they've only 'outlived their usefulness' due to bad writing. Third, as the topic title asks, if they aren't going to actually use the characters, why the fuck are they here? I'd rather they go the way of launch rather than stick around just to be teased to be useful just to be fucked over time and time again. That's not good storytelling! Actually use your awesome colorful cast or don't! You can't sail half mast like that. Fourth and finally, maybe it would be more tolerable if the main character of Super was actually Goku rather than this bland asshole who lacks any real character traits other than being an asshole who doesn't give a fuck. This is the main reason why I think GT did better with using very few characters besides Goku. In GT I never wished Goku would die a horrible death.

The main problem I have with the secondary characters is how extremely bland they are in super (with the exception of Bulma, Beerus and whis)
If the secondary characters can not convince, than the main character will suffer from that.
This is my PERSONAL opinion though, there are also many who like DB Super the way it is now. (mostly the younger folk) but I am an older DB fan who still remembers the glory of DBZ, so you can imagine I don't really like some of the toned down DB Super.

[Jigurashi]

OG DB is the closest any of the canon DB series are to GT.

Not at all. The main earthlings were all useful. (Except for Chiaotzu, who no one really cares about) It's not necessarily about who gets a main villain kill or anything like that. It's about them being on screen and doing memorable things that are cool and useful.

Both are only part of it. But rethinking it, both are closer to GT than Z. OG legit had sagas where the earthlings were also doing very little to nothing throughout the manga if it wasn't a tournament. RRA, Baba's tournament, and Daimao being the worse offenders of OG. Super is the "Goku show with Vegeta!" which is hardly a step up from GT.

You got overly attached to secondary characters and now you won't let go when they've outlived their usefulness to the story. Which is Goku's story, do remember.

Well first of all that response oozes with bad attitude. Second, It makes for a much more interesting story with multiple relevant characters, and they've only 'outlived their usefulness' due to bad writing. Third, as the topic title asks, if they aren't going to actually use the characters, why the fuck are they here? I'd rather they go the way of launch rather than stick around just to be teased to be useful just to be fucked over time and time again. That's not good storytelling! Actually use your awesome colorful cast or don't! You can't sail half mast like that. Fourth and finally, maybe it would be more tolerable if the main character of Super was actually Goku rather than this bland asshole who lacks any real character traits other than being an asshole who doesn't give a fuck. This is the main reason why I think GT did better with using very few characters besides Goku. In GT I never wished Goku would die a horrible death.

The main problem I have with the secondary characters is how extremely bland they are in super (with the exception of Bulma, Beerus and whis)
If the secondary characters can not convince, than the main character will suffer from that.
This is my PERSONAL opinion though, there are also many who like DB Super the way it is now. (mostly the younger folk) but I am an older DB fan who still remembers the glory of DBZ, so you can imagine I don't really like some of the toned down DB Super.

I agree for the most part. There a very few characters Super has made me care about, though funny enough Goku is one of the few only just currently in this saga. They're clearly doing something with him, Gohan, and Freeza which is why I'm invested in them and am interested to see what this saga has in store for those three. This saga has failed so far to make me care about anyone else of U7. Also agree with GT Goku being written better though I find current Goku a lot more interesting, but I don't agree about Goku just not caring about anything or anyone in Super. I don't like that nobody seems to care about the stakes of this tournament, which is more of a writing flaw than a specific character's one.

[Basako]

Gonna say about this, that it's too soon, there have only been one and a half chapters and the next one seems to be centered on the old cast, especially Krilin and 18. But, the truth is this is the time when they should be having some screentime, because we know most of them are not going to make it till the end, while the saiyans will. Him and Vegeta, who got all the previous arc for themseleves, eliminated the most of the U9 team, the one fight 18 had was off screen. I want Piccolo, Tenshinhan, Roshi, Krilin and the androids fighting and having some quality time and it has to be now. We'll see...

[TekTheNinja]

You got overly attached to secondary characters and now you won't let go when they've outlived their usefulness to the story. Which is Goku's story, do remember.

Well first of all that response oozes with bad attitude. Second, It makes for a much more interesting story with multiple relevant characters, and they've only 'outlived their usefulness' due to bad writing. Third, as the topic title asks, if they aren't going to actually use the characters, why the fuck are they here? I'd rather they go the way of launch rather than stick around just to be teased to be useful just to be fucked over time and time again. That's not good storytelling! Actually use your awesome colorful cast or don't! You can't sail half mast like that. Fourth and finally, maybe it would be more tolerable if the main character of Super was actually Goku rather than this bland asshole who lacks any real character traits other than being an asshole who doesn't give a fuck. This is the main reason why I think GT did better with using very few characters besides Goku. In GT I never wished Goku would die a horrible death.

The main problem I have with the secondary characters is how extremely bland they are in super (with the exception of Bulma, Beerus and whis)
If the secondary characters can not convince, than the main character will suffer from that.
This is my PERSONAL opinion though, there are also many who like DB Super the way it is now. (mostly the younger folk) but I am an older DB fan who still remembers the glory of DBZ, so you can imagine I don't really like some of the toned down DB Super.

That's the thing. They appear bland because they hardly say or do anything, even in a lot of filler. Don't even get me started on modern Gohan.

[Akyon]

Is it not a testomony to Toriyama and Dragonball that people DID get attached to the secondary cast and want to see more of the characters they grew up with?

If the likes of Piccolo, Krillin, Bulma, Tenshinhan, 18, 17, Roshi, Buu, Yamcha and the like weren't such likable characters to begin with people wouldn't have grown said attachment in the first place.
No-one's particularly demanding more screen time for the likes of Chiaoutzu, Ox King or Dr. Briefs and that's largely due to their lack of development and general out of focus-ness.

One thing I do think Super's been doing better than Z are the episodes, filler or not, that are spent focusing on the secondary cast.
Yamcha's baseball game still had plenty of Goku and Vegeta, but Yamcha was also treated to some focus. Heck, he even got to look pretty badass for a moment there when pitching.
Krillin and 17's recruitment episode was pretty good(although many disliked space poachers, the previous one is seemingly loved).
The Pan episode went down very well with fans if I recall.
Mr. Satan got a fun episode way back where he'd taking credit for defeating "Beebus" and going Super Satan.
Whilst Gohan is arguably secondary at this point, pre-ToP his episodes with Barry Khan(surely the most evil villain to date) were pretty nice too.

Yes, it's Goku's story, but with a series as long as Dragonball and with as much history, the secondary cast are still worth bringing back because their inclusion means something to the fans.

It's hard to give much of a care about half the ToP fighters who whilst more powerful than Krillin, Tenshinhan and definitely Roshi, don't have the same level of characterization, importance within Goku's life or much outside of 'having a higher power level'. Sure we've spent some focus on U6's fighters, and a little with U11 and the Trio De Dangers, but at the end of the day their roles within the series are(most likely) to get punched in the face by Goku so he can save U7.

[Simere]

Well, it's not like I think it's wrong to like secondary characters and want to see more of them. It's not like I don't also love them. I'm just saying you have to be aware of their transient nature in the story. They could stay prominent for a long time, possibly even forever; or they could be gone come the next arc. if that's not something you acknowledge when you're reading the story, then I think you're reading the story wrong; not to mention the disappointment it sets you up for when your expectations aren't met.

And it's not bad writing if and when they do end up leaving just because you personally would have enjoyed them to stay. That's the main point I was driving at: assessing the quality of writing, of storytelling, has little or nothing to do with our personal tastes in stories.

[Shinda Forever]

Is it not a testomony to Toriyama and Dragonball that people DID get attached to the secondary cast and want to see more of the characters they grew up with?

If the likes of Piccolo, Krillin, Bulma, Tenshinhan, 18, 17, Roshi, Buu, Yamcha and the like weren't such likable characters to begin with people wouldn't have grown said attachment in the first place.
No-one's particularly demanding more screen time for the likes of Chiaoutzu, Ox King or Dr. Briefs and that's largely due to their lack of development and general out of focus-ness.

One thing I do think Super's been doing better than Z are the episodes, filler or not, that are spent focusing on the secondary cast.
Yamcha's baseball game still had plenty of Goku and Vegeta, but Yamcha was also treated to some focus. Heck, he even got to look pretty badass for a moment there when pitching.
Krillin and 17's recruitment episode was pretty good(although many disliked space poachers, the previous one is seemingly loved).
The Pan episode went down very well with fans if I recall.
Mr. Satan got a fun episode way back where he'd taking credit for defeating "Beebus" and going Super Satan.
Whilst Gohan is arguably secondary at this point, pre-ToP his episodes with Barry Khan(surely the most evil villain to date) were pretty nice too.

Yes, it's Goku's story, but with a series as long as Dragonball and with as much history, the secondary cast are still worth bringing back because their inclusion means something to the fans.

It's hard to give much of a care about half the ToP fighters who whilst more powerful than Krillin, Tenshinhan and definitely Roshi, don't have the same level of characterization, importance within Goku's life or much outside of 'having a higher power level'. Sure we've spent some focus on U6's fighters, and a little with U11 and the Trio De Dangers, but at the end of the day their roles within the series are(most likely) to get punched in the face by Goku so he can save U7.

Well said!

[Xeztin]

I think screentime has been all over the place with everyone. But thing is, we've got super aliens running around and people with the power of freaking Gods. Literally! Theres only so much the main cast can do without relying on Goku/Vegeta/Piccolo etc... Then again unfortunately Toei, Shueisha, and Toriyama together can't write up something like One Piece using hundreds of unique characters at once. I think that's Oda's strongest asset other than forshadowing.

[GodKaio-Ken]

OG DB is the closest any of the canon DB series are to GT.

Not at all. The main earthlings were all useful. (Except for Chiaotzu, who no one really cares about) It's not necessarily about who gets a main villain kill or anything like that. It's about them being on screen and doing memorable things that are cool and useful.

People seem to equate Goku being a kid with "Oh its just like DB"

[HeroR]

I think screentime has been all over the place with everyone. But thing is, we've got super aliens running around and people with the power of freaking Gods. Literally! Theres only so much the main cast can do without relying on Goku/Vegeta/Piccolo etc... Then again unfortunately Toei, Shueisha, and Toriyama together can't write up something like One Piece using hundreds of unique characters at once. I think that's Oda's strongest asset other than forshadowing.

One Piece at times takes it too far in the other direction to the point the main story stalls. Doffy's arc was the worse offender.

[Kanassa]

I think screentime has been all over the place with everyone. But thing is, we've got super aliens running around and people with the power of freaking Gods. Literally! Theres only so much the main cast can do without relying on Goku/Vegeta/Piccolo etc... Then again unfortunately Toei, Shueisha, and Toriyama together can't write up something like One Piece using hundreds of unique characters at once. I think that's Oda's strongest asset other than forshadowing.

One Piece at times takes it too far in the other direction to the point the main story stalls. Doffy's arc was the worse offender.

That arc's problem wasn't giving other characters something to do, that arc's problem was trying to shove too much backstory in between all the action and way too much time spent on the rather inconcequential tournament (WHich is really only there to build up the allies Luffy's getting). Yes, it was backstory that was needed, but there were much better ways to go about it.

[HeroR]

That arc's problem wasn't giving other characters something to do, that arc's problem was trying to shove too much backstory in between all the action and way too much time spent on the rather inconcequential tournament (WHich is really only there to build up the allies Luffy's getting). Yes, it was backstory that was needed, but there were much better ways to go about it.

Senior Pink's story wasn't needed. Neither a lot of the alliance stories like Mr. Conehead. And tourument reintroduced Sabo so it held importance beyond the alliance. Kratos' story was also not really needed in the grand scheme of things.

[precita]

It's rather bizarre DBZ was able to split up it's screentime so well. Goku went huge gaps with doing nothing, Piccolo, Krillin and Gohan all got their moments of glory, Vegeta got plenty of focus, and even the humans like Tenshinhan/Yamcha got a few moments before they were phased out as well.

[Sodhi]

Goku was nowhere to be seen this epsiode(#99). Other than in 2 frames