Goku and the "yes but no" responsibility for the ToP

[Majin Jator]

So, at the start of the arc Goku is deemed responsible of the consequences of the Tournament of Power, that is, the destruction of seven universes.
Some of us liked the novelty of this appoach, having the protagonist labeled as the villain by everyone else. Others disliked it, considering it could ruin the portrayal of Goku as the hero.
All of this is well and good, different opinions blablabla, but later Toei or Toriyama takes a step backward, and said eight universes were going to be destroyed anyway, and that Goku has given the chance to survive to al least one of them. This statement is pretty much ignored by most characters; those who aknowledge it are pretty much talking heads and don't take part of the action. Those who do still treat Goku as the responsible of the universes destruction.

This seem like some sort of damage control,and it certainly annoys me. Do you want to have Goku as “the villain”? Stick to it. Don't want to? Don't bring that plot point in the first place. Is the coward middle gound what irks me.

So, what does my fellow DB fans think about this? Do you like this twist or you would rather embrace Goku as the responsible of all this mayhem? Does it annoys you, or do you think is the lesser evil?

[wolflonnie]

I think they should've taken the more "middle way", which is have everybody know from the beginning that Zeno wanted to erase the universes, and have Goku being viewed both as the one who speed up things (with the tournament idea), and the one who accidentally gave a possibility to the winner universe.
Basically have the other universes disrepect and target Goku because he speeded up things, but don't label him as a villain. It's way too much.

[Lionel]

Goku has a pension for unwittingly making situations more difficult than they need to be dating back all the way to Freeza on Namek. This euphoric lust for battle doesn't cloud his senses quite to the same extent as it does for Vegeta, but he's still responsible for a good share of antagonistic situations becoming exacerbated through one fault of his or another. Goku should not have prompted Zeno to go through with the tournament as it may have granted the universes some precious time for living, perhaps even to formulate a solution to this dilemma with the Zenos aspiring to destroy the universes.

The lives lost in this conflict are somewhat hovering above Goku's shoulders. It was his eagerness for a tournament based competition that developed into an out of control struggle for survival.

[GodKaio-Ken]

Lol Its not damage control its the story. Most smart people from the start have pointed out this isnt Gokus fault at all. He asked for a tournament and noone should anticipate what happened.

[HeroR]

Goku has a pension for unwittingly making situations more difficult than they need to be dating back all the way to Freeza on Namek. This euphoric lust for battle doesn't cloud his senses quite to the same extent as it does for Vegeta, but he's still responsible for a good share of antagonistic situations becoming exacerbated through one fault of his or another. Goku should not have prompted Zeno to go through with the tournament as it may have granted the universes some precious time for living, perhaps even to formulate a solution to this dilemma with the Zenos aspiring to destroy the universes.

The lives lost in this conflict are somewhat hovering above Goku's shoulders. It was his eagerness for a tournament based competition that developed into an out of control struggle for survival.

Those universes didn't even know they were on the chopping block until the Tourument of Power. U9 didn't even know they were ranked the lowest. So how can they improved something they had no knowledge of.

[Lionel]

Goku has a pension for unwittingly making situations more difficult than they need to be dating back all the way to Freeza on Namek. This euphoric lust for battle doesn't cloud his senses quite to the same extent as it does for Vegeta, but he's still responsible for a good share of antagonistic situations becoming exacerbated through one fault of his or another. Goku should not have prompted Zeno to go through with the tournament as it may have granted the universes some precious time for living, perhaps even to formulate a solution to this dilemma with the Zenos aspiring to destroy the universes.

The lives lost in this conflict are somewhat hovering above Goku's shoulders. It was his eagerness for a tournament based competition that developed into an out of control struggle for survival.

Those universes didn't even know they were on the chopping block until the Tourument of Power. U9 didn't even know they were ranked the lowest. So how can they improved something they had no knowledge of.

How much time were they given between the exhibition matches and the actual tournament? Depending on the amount of time elapsed, it may have been enough for the now informed universes to come together and devise a means for neutralising the threat of erasure somehow (wouldn't involve overpowering Zeno, of course).

[ekrolo2]

I'd like to point out that Goku had to remind Zeno of his promise for a multiverse tournament, meaning Zeno is entirely capable of saying one thing then totally forgetting about it.

This adds another layer to how much at fault Goku really is, did he really give one universe a chance or did he truly screw them over by reminding Zeno of his one time idea to cull the multiverse.

[Majin Jator]

Lol Its not damage control its the story. Most smart people from the start have pointed out this isnt Gokus fault at all. He asked for a tournament and noone should anticipate what happened.

But the story is still unfolding as if Goku was the one to be blamed. The "Goku isn't at fault " is pretty much ignored, and seems to be dropped just to appease fans. So, it doesn't affect the story, but it ruins the impact of having Goku as the responsible of everything; at least for me.

[Yedis]

Lol Its not damage control its the story. Most smart people from the start have pointed out this isnt Gokus fault at all. He asked for a tournament and noone should anticipate what happened.

But the story is still unfolding as if Goku was the one to be blamed. The "Goku isn't at fault " is pretty much ignored, and seems to be dropped just to appease fans. So, it doesn't affect the story, but it ruins the impact of having Goku as the responsible of everything; at least for me.

EDIT: Misread your statement.

[The gr]

I think this is Goku fault for reminding the zenos,I'm gonna give you a similar scenario

Is like this,the grand priest told Zeno to clean the attic and Goku told him to clean the roof, zeno told him I will do it but he forgot about it and then Goku remind him about the roof and then Zeno decided to clean the roof and the attic because he forgot about it a long time ago

that's how I view the multiversal destruction dillema,zeno is like that one kid that forgot his chores I mean zeno totally forgot the mortal level thing because is strange Zeno didn't erase the lower level Universe Sooner until Goku remind him about the multiversal tournament so he decided to do multiversal tournament with the mortal level through Goku did give the universe a chance to survive so that a positive

[Majin Jator]

BTW, the fact that the saiyans are the responsibles of the first universe elimination, the alliance with a torturer like Freeza..all of that works perfectly with the U7 being seen the villains. Another reason why I think it was the original idea, and should be fully embraced.

[GodKaio-Ken]

Lol Its not damage control its the story. Most smart people from the start have pointed out this isnt Gokus fault at all. He asked for a tournament and noone should anticipate what happened.

But the story is still unfolding as if Goku was the one to be blamed. The "Goku isn't at fault " is pretty much ignored, and seems to be dropped just to appease fans. So, it doesn't affect the story, but it ruins the impact of having Goku as the responsible of everything; at least for me.

I dont get it.

The other universe blame Goku because they are angry and need a direction to vent. His tournament his blame.

Those in higher positions realize it was fate to be erased either way. They realize Goku gave everyone a literal fighting chance.

Fans took Goku being to blame way farther than the show ever implied honestly.

[Lord Beerus]

Speaking strictly from an in-universe, Goku would have no idea that a tournament would lead to such a drastic stipulation. But at the same time, he was specifically warned by Beerus and Whis about Zeno's unpredictable behaviour because of how innocent he was, and he was informed about how Zeno destroyed universes for petty reasons in the past. And he literally witnesses Zeno casually destroy a multiverse on a whim, so he has first hand experience of knowing what Zeno is capable of. So he really should no better. I do agree that he deserves a good amount of blame for anyone dying at the tournament but I don't he deserves all of it. He only wanted the tournament to happen because Goku is... well... Goku. He's a ultimately blood knight, albeit a somewhat heroic one, who craves for a challenge or a good fight, irregardless of the potential or hypothetical dangers that could be created from it.

But at the same time I don't see why we should blame Goku for any universes being destroyed at this point considering that Zeno had already planned to put eight universe on the chopping block. We may not when it was going to happen, but it was going to happen. And Omni-King had already thought of a convenient way of destroying the eight universes. And Goku unintentionally bailed out, not only his universe, but potentially several others. Had Goku not reminded Zeno about the tournament, Zeno would have casually wiped out eight universes, including Goku's. Goku talking to Zeno has set up a scenario where none of the universes have to be destroyed by Zeno. Goku has essentially given trillions upon trillions of people a "Get Out Of Jail Free" card. Which was previously non-existent. You can talk about when the destruction of the eight universes at Zeno's hand was going to happen, but you can't talk about if it was going to happen. Because it was planned from the start.

Goku has a pension for unwittingly making situations more difficult than they need to be dating back all the way to Freeza on Namek. This euphoric lust for battle doesn't cloud his senses quite to the same extent as it does for Vegeta, but he's still responsible for a good share of antagonistic situations becoming exacerbated through one fault of his or another. Goku should not have prompted Zeno to go through with the tournament as it may have granted the universes some precious time for living, perhaps even to formulate a solution to this dilemma with the Zenos aspiring to destroy the universes.

The lives lost in this conflict are somewhat hovering above Goku's shoulders. It was his eagerness for a tournament based competition that developed into an out of control struggle for survival.

Those universes didn't even know they were on the chopping block until the Tourument of Power. U9 didn't even know they were ranked the lowest. So how can they improved something they had no knowledge of.

How much time were they given between the exhibition matches and the actual tournament? Depending on the amount of time elapsed, it may have been enough for the now informed universes to come together and devise a means for neutralising the threat of erasure somehow (wouldn't involve overpowering Zeno, of course).

All the universes were given only 40 hours to prepare for the tournament.

[Asura]

I just hope Goku's actions at the exhibition matches are given some explanation at the end of this arc. He was being painted as a villain because he was pretty much acting like a villain. The reveal that Zeno was going to erase them all anyway and Goku at least gave one universe a chance doesn't excuse how he was acting before anyone even knew that information. But I feel like the show is trying to play it off as "Oh look at all these people gunning right for Universe 7 because they think Goku is a villain even though we know he's a hero and might save them!" despite the fact that no, Goku wasn't acting like a hero at all. He wasn't acting in anyone's interest at all but his own. So while Goku might have given everyone a chance, it certainly wasn't on purpose, and Goku was pretty satisfied with basically telling them all to go to hell during the exhibition matches.

If Goku's actions and attitude at the exhibition match was simply just a plot device to set up the "all the universes hate Goku" scenario and is never actually explained or goes anywhere else, then that would be some awful god damn writing. Not enough to ruin the arc of course, but definitely enough to leave a stain on it. Having someone appear out of character just for that moment just to set up a plot device is one of the worst writing mistakes you could make, and I hope there's actually an explanation there instead of just "yeah we made him look and act like a villain just so we could use that later during the tournament for justification as to why everyone's going for U7"

[emi_b7]

So, at the start of the arc Goku is deemed responsible of the consequences of the Tournament of Power, that is, the destruction of seven universes.
Some of us liked the novelty of this appoach, having the protagonist labeled as the villain by everyone else. Others disliked it, considering it could ruin the portrayal of Goku as the hero.
All of this is well and good, different opinions blablabla, but later Toei or Toriyama takes a step backward, and said eight universes were going to be destroyed anyway, and that Goku has given the chance to survive to al least one of them. This statement is pretty much ignored by most characters; those who aknowledge it are pretty much talking heads and don't take part of the action. Those who do still treat Goku as the responsible of the universes destruction.

This seem like some sort of damage control,and it certainly annoys me. Do you want to have Goku as “the villain”? Stick to it. Don't want to? Don't bring that plot point in the first place. Is the coward middle gound what irks me.

This didn't happen. The Grand Priest telling everyone the concequences of the ToP, Goku being blamed by other Universes and the reveal that Zeno was thinking about destroying those universes anyway ALL happened in the same episode (ep 80, and continued in ep 81 after Bergamo gives his speech). There was no step backward and no damage control, the information was all given at the same time. The problem is, as always, that people had spoilers about Goku being blamed by the other Universes weeks before it actually happened in te show so they started this whole "Goku is a villain" thing.

Anyway, in universe, I think it makes sense for other universes in the ToP to blame Goku, they are likely going to die soon, who knows when Zeno would destroy them if Goku didn't open his mouth? Maybe he wouldn't do it for thousands of years, who knows? They will die way sooner tan they would have (in 40 hours) because Goku talked to Zeno, it's normal to hold it against the guy, the fact that he increased their odds of survival from 0% to ~12,5% isn't enough to feel good about it.
At the same time, characters who aren't going to die no matter what happens in the ToP (Whis in ep 80, U1 Kaioshin in ep 99) can look at the big picture and realise that Goku gave a chance of long term survival to one of those universes. Characters in different positions react different to the same thing, that's perfectly normal.
That said, I hope that, at least inside the arena, this whole "U7 are the ones to blame" gets more focus. They did it with U9 but the way those characters constantly laugh in such an asshole and evil way makes it hard to look at Goku as the bad guy lol. I guess when Toppo gets some screen time we will hear about this again.

[Akyon]

Goku is pretty much responsible for the current mortals being erased. These specific lives are on his shoulders.

The GoDs and Kai's however would have been erased later down the line anyway when Zeno EVENTUALLY did it.

That's why I can fully understand the hatred the likes of Bergamo feels for Goku. He was going to die of old age long before Zeno would have offed him and could have lead a long and fulfilling life if not for Goku speeding up his demise.

Sidra and Roh though were doomed either way given their very long life spans.

[GodKaio-Ken]

Goku is pretty much responsible for the current mortals being erased. These specific lives are on his shoulders.

The GoDs and Kai's however would have been erased later down the line anyway when Zeno EVENTUALLY did it.

That's why I can fully understand the hatred the likes of Bergamo feels for Goku. He was going to die of old age long before Zeno would have offed him and could have lead a long and fulfilling life if not for Goku speeding up his demise.

Sidra and Roh though were doomed either way given their very long life spans.

Youre missing a huge point though.

Even if they die their souls would be be recycled/alive when the erasure happens. They would still experience being erased except they would be powerless.

[Asura]

The problem is, as always, that people had spoilers about Goku being blamed by the other Universes weeks before it actually happened in te show so they started this whole "Goku is a villain" thing.

That's not the problem at all. I dunno why so many people think the reveal of Goku at least being able to save one universe completely validates how he was acting before that. Not only did we not know that information at first, but neither did Goku. He was acting with the intention of having the universes erased and couldn't give a fuck less about anyone in those universes. He wanted a martial arts tournament and if other people got erased from existence? Whatever. People keep bringing up the "But Goku at least made one universe survive!" line but completely forget about how he was acting before that.

Goku's shitty attitude accidentally leading to a good deed does not somehow excuse the fact that he had a shitty attitude where he didn't care at all about universes being destroyed. Not because he wanted to save his own universe, but just because he wanted a martial arts tournament. Goku was literally willing to let all the other universes be destroyed solely because he wanted a tournament, and not because he wanted to save his own universe. It's that ridiculous attitude that is incredibly out of character for Goku. He's selfish, but he's not a psychopath.

[GodKaio-Ken]

The problem is, as always, that people had spoilers about Goku being blamed by the other Universes weeks before it actually happened in te show so they started this whole "Goku is a villain" thing.

That's not the problem at all. I dunno why so many people think the reveal of Goku at least being able to save one universe completely validates how he was acting before that. Not only did we not know that information at first, but neither did Goku. He was acting with the intention of having the universes erased and couldn't give a fuck less about anyone in those universes. He wanted a martial arts tournament and if other people got erased from existence? Whatever. People keep bringing up the "But Goku at least made one universe survive!" line but completely forget about how he was acting before that.

Goku's shitty attitude accidentally leading to a good deed does not somehow excuse the fact that he had a shitty attitude where he didn't care at all about universes being destroyed. Not because he wanted to save his own universe, but just because he wanted a martial arts tournament. Goku was literally willing to let all the other universes be destroyed solely because he wanted a tournament, and not because he wanted to save his own universe. It's that ridiculous attitude that is incredibly out of character for Goku. He's selfish, but he's not a psychopath.

Its not that hes okay with it. Its that wtf is he supposed to do about it. When was he willing to let that happen. When did he knowingly have a choice?

[Asura]

The problem is, as always, that people had spoilers about Goku being blamed by the other Universes weeks before it actually happened in te show so they started this whole "Goku is a villain" thing.

That's not the problem at all. I dunno why so many people think the reveal of Goku at least being able to save one universe completely validates how he was acting before that. Not only did we not know that information at first, but neither did Goku. He was acting with the intention of having the universes erased and couldn't give a fuck less about anyone in those universes. He wanted a martial arts tournament and if other people got erased from existence? Whatever. People keep bringing up the "But Goku at least made one universe survive!" line but completely forget about how he was acting before that.

Goku's shitty attitude accidentally leading to a good deed does not somehow excuse the fact that he had a shitty attitude where he didn't care at all about universes being destroyed. Not because he wanted to save his own universe, but just because he wanted a martial arts tournament. Goku was literally willing to let all the other universes be destroyed solely because he wanted a tournament, and not because he wanted to save his own universe. It's that ridiculous attitude that is incredibly out of character for Goku. He's selfish, but he's not a psychopath.

Its not that hes okay with it. Its that wtf is he supposed to do about it. When was he willing to let that happen. When did he knowingly have a choice?

But he is okay with it. Show me one scene of evidence that proves he regrets it or questions it or feels anything about it other than excitement. There is none. He was 100% on board with it and never once even thought about it. Beerus & Whis also warned him not to go, and he tricked Beerus and went anyway.