Goku and the "yes but no" responsibility for the ToP

[GodKaio-Ken]

But everything you just told me about has happened during the tournament. I'm talking about how he was acting during/before the exhibition matches. The way Goku is acting right now during the tournament is fine, it's how he acted with the circumstances that lead us to this point that is the problem and that is what I'm talking about.

Gokus attitude may not have been ideal at the start, that's true, But it's not like he acted like he didn't care or that he enjoys the destruction. Which I suppose was my main point. That Goku doesn't want people dead nor is he on board with it.

His indifference is the problem, which shows that he doesn't care about people dying. It's not like he's maliciously over the top evil where he wants people to die, he just gives off the impression that he absolutely does not care whether they live or die, and that's the fucked up part.

Like I said he explained this already this episode. If Zeno wants to erase people he will. There is nothing he can do but fight to live. Its not him erasing anyone.

[Boo Machine]

But everything you just told me about has happened during the tournament. I'm talking about how he was acting during/before the exhibition matches. The way Goku is acting right now during the tournament is fine, it's how he acted with the circumstances that lead us to this point that is the problem and that is what I'm talking about.

Gokus attitude may not have been ideal at the start, that's true, But it's not like he acted like he didn't care or that he enjoys the destruction. Which I suppose was my main point. That Goku doesn't want people dead nor is he on board with it.

His indifference is the problem, which shows that he doesn't care about people dying. It's not like he's maliciously over the top evil where he wants people to die, he just gives off the impression that he absolutely does not care whether they live or die, and that's the fucked up part.

But he wasn't indifferent. When he found out he was as shocked as anyone else. It may not have had a agonized look on his face for very long but he still had it. Then he slaps himself in the face and decides whats best to do next instead of dwelling on it. He takes action instead of brooding because there isn't much else he can do. What else could happen after that aside from just watching Goku agonize in the corner for a certain amount of time and wasting said time he could be using to figuring out his universes own survival? Just like everyone else during the tournament. People are knocking other to their deaths, but no one is dwelling on it.

I'm not trying to paint Goku to look like a saint, but I don't think there should be a required time that someone needs to be in a sorry state.

[FoolsGil]

You somehow came up with millenia using the Future Trunks timeline?

I said centuries to millenias. Very likely that when that Zeno starts destroying universes, The Future Trunks' will be long dead.

How do you know in that timeline Zeno didnt destroy 2-3 already for fun in that timeline?

Well I don't know, but at the same time, we don't know if Zeno did nothing. It's a Schrodinger's Cat Situation. But for myself, I look to the fact U7 is second from the worst. If Zeno was going to just wipe out 2 or 3 for fun, U7 would have been on that list.

[Master Xar]

But everything you just told me about has happened during the tournament. I'm talking about how he was acting during/before the exhibition matches. The way Goku is acting right now during the tournament is fine, it's how he acted with the circumstances that lead us to this point that is the problem and that is what I'm talking about.

Gokus attitude may not have been ideal at the start, that's true, But it's not like he acted like he didn't care or that he enjoys the destruction. Which I suppose was my main point. That Goku doesn't want people dead nor is he on board with it.

His indifference is the problem, which shows that he doesn't care about people dying. It's not like he's maliciously over the top evil where he wants people to die, he just gives off the impression that he absolutely does not care whether they live or die, and that's the fucked up part.

He wasn't. He was decently shocked at the revelation of the universes being destroyed and even wanted to convince Zen-Oh to re-think his decision...

I dunno what you are expecting here dude, Goku isn't someone who is openly upset outside of anger very often, he doesn't fight against something he can't help, he isn't going to go up to Zen-Oh all angry and/or crying like a whiny baby about it, nor is he going to sulk about his mistake. That's not what Goku really has ever done, he is going to enjoy the tournament as much as he can while knowing he still messed up a little bit.

What exactly do people want from DBS Goku that would already contradict what they want ALSO from him. He is being mature about the situation and being fairly calm, it would be stupid (a big complaint from the fanbase) for him to demand Zeno to make it risk free.


Plus you have to remember that at this point in time Goku has seen most horrors and fought against vile people that most men don't experience in real life. It's unsurprising he is a little desensitized. It's like calling a man who has been at war and doesn't have a very pronounced reaction to a dead body and saying he doesn't care, he does, but he has seen too much shit to be on the ground freaking out at a dead body.

[Asura]

Since everyone seems to think Goku was perfect in the beginning of the arc and all of his actions are 100% in line with his character, why don't we compare Goku in Z versus Goku in Super?

First lets start with Goku in the Cell saga. He's made a huge mistake by not only giving Cell a senzu, but sending in his own son, who doesn't want to fight, to try and be the savior of the world against Cell. Piccolo completely chews him out for this and yells at him. This is enough for Goku to finally realize his terrible mistake. So how does he attempt to fix this mistake?

Well first we have the reaction: [spoiler][/spoiler]
Next comes the solution to this mistake: [spoiler]Goku immediately yells at Krillin to toss him a senzu bean. He most likely plans to jump back into the fray and fight Cell himself and save Gohan from any further pummeling he's getting.[/spoiler]
So what did we learn? Goku realizes his mistake, and immediately takes action to try and correct it. He thinks about it, and knows he was wrong and that Piccolo is right.

Now we compare this to Super.

First we have the reaction: [spoiler][/spoiler]

Next comes the solution to this mistake: [spoiler][/spoiler]
What did we learn this time? Well, Goku has a reaction, but not really. In fact, it seems like he's dumb as rocks and doesn't even understand the gravity of the situation at all given his "Huh?". Next, Goku's "solution" is not to think about it, apologize, or realize his mistake and then push forward like everyone else is saying he's done (but hasn't because the show never showed us that). Nope, instead he's just going to insult and taunt the other universes. He's not sorry for what he's done, he doesn't feel bad about what he's done, he doesn't even think about what he's done as evidenced by the fact that Beerus asks him that exact question and all he can say is "Huh?" And while every other universe is scared shitless thinking they might be erased from existence, Goku is down there yelling at them to fight him. Again, taking the characters traits of "selfish" and "always wants to fight" to a ridiculous level. This is not in character. As I've said in the past, just because a character has these traits doesn't mean they're in character when these traits are exaggerated. For some people this seems to be a hard concept to understand, but really I think it's quite simple.

People always latch on to the reaction when I bring this issue up (whether it's long enough, how much time he should spend reacting to it, etc.), but the problem is not really the reaction as much as it is the solution (although the way Goku reacted in Super is very obviously trumped by the Cell saga scene) where while Goku realized he fucked up but then moved on in Z, in Super Goku instead doesn't realize he fucked up, doesn't think about it, doesn't even seem to understand it at first, and then pushes on in the rudest possible way by basically giving every universe the finger and telling them to come at me bro.

[OLKv3]

Yeah, DBS Goku feels like a huge sociopath in this arc. Compare how he reacted to the erasure to even how he reacted to seeing Trunks' devastated world in the previous arc. It's like Goku has no empathy in this arc.

[Basako]

Since everyone seems to think Goku was perfect in the beginning of the arc and all of his actions are 100% in line with his character, why don't we compare Goku in Z versus Goku in Super?

First lets start with Goku in the Cell saga. He's made a huge mistake by not only giving Cell a senzu, but sending in his own son, who doesn't want to fight, to try and be the savior of the world against Cell. Piccolo completely chews him out for this and yells at him. This is enough for Goku to finally realize his terrible mistake. So how does he attempt to fix this mistake?

Well first we have the reaction: [spoiler][/spoiler]
Next comes the solution to this mistake: [spoiler]Goku immediately yells at Krillin to toss him a senzu bean. He most likely plans to jump back into the fray and fight Cell himself and save Gohan from any further pummeling he's getting.[/spoiler]
So what did we learn? Goku realizes his mistake, and immediately takes action to try and correct it. He thinks about it, and knows he was wrong and that Piccolo is right.

Now we compare this to Super.

First we have the reaction: [spoiler][/spoiler]

Next comes the solution to this mistake: [spoiler][/spoiler]
What did we learn this time? Well, Goku has a reaction, but not really. In fact, it seems like he's dumb as rocks and doesn't even understand the gravity of the situation at all given his "Huh?". Next, Goku's "solution" is not to think about it, apologize, or realize his mistake and then push forward like everyone else is saying he's done (but hasn't because the show never showed us that). Nope, instead he's just going to insult and taunt the other universes. He's not sorry for what he's done, he doesn't feel bad about what he's done, he doesn't even think about what he's done as evidenced by the fact that Beerus asks him that exact question and all he can say is "Huh?" And while every other universe is scared shitless thinking they might be erased from existence, Goku is down there yelling at them to fight him. Again, taking the characters traits of "selfish" and "always wants to fight" to a ridiculous level. This is not in character. As I've said in the past, just because a character has these traits doesn't mean they're in character when these traits are exaggerated. For some people this seems to be a hard concept to understand, but really I think it's quite simple.

People always latch on to the reaction when I bring this issue up (whether it's long enough, how much time he should spend reacting to it, etc.), but the problem is not really the reaction as much as it is the solution (although the way Goku reacted in Super is very obviously trumped by the Cell saga scene) where while Goku realized he fucked up but then moved on in Z, in Super Goku instead doesn't realize he fucked up, doesn't think about it, doesn't even seem to understand it at first, and then pushes on in the rudest possible way by basically giving every universe the finger and telling them to come at me bro.

No, you are misleading with the images you show. Goku reacts totally shocked and with horror when the Daishinkan tells them about erasing universes and he does propose the solution of asking Zeno to leave out that rule, which is also proposed by the Kaioshin of U11 later. I'm not blindly defending him, he could show more concern later and his speech to the other universes gods was not wise, but you don't leave out what you want either.

And there's no way Goku could know Zeno would want to erase universes, Zeno said he wanted to do something like the Champa arc tournament, that's what Goku wanted too, not the part of people dying. Also, he couldn't know that he was giving a chance to one of them, because Zeno was going to erase eight, after Goku's remind, only seven.

[Asura]

No, you are misleading with the images you show. Goku reacts totally shocked and with horror when the Daishinkan tells them about erasing universes

I'm not being misleading at all. The only other shots are of Goku quickly saying "The universes are going to be erased!?" (of which Nozawa sounds slightly shocked but only slightly) and this panning shot that lasts 2 seconds: [spoiler][/spoiler]

"Totally shocked and with horror" is definitely a gross exaggeration given those images. But like I said, the reaction isn't the really the point I'm making here. It's the way both Z Goku and Super Goku decided to handle these two situations after they've realized they've fucked up. One realizes his mistake and desperately tries to correct it, while the other seemingly doesn't give a shit and just does whatever.

he does propose the solution of asking Zeno to leave out that rule, which is also proposed by the Kaioshin of U11 later. I'm not blindly defending him, he could show more concern later and his speech to the other universes gods was not wise, but you don't leave out what you want either.

I didn't leave out any of that. I already mentioned that Goku only brings up asking Zeno after the Supreme Kai complains, and it's worded more-so as a "Oh well I can try asking him for you if you want" rather than "Well shit, this isn't good, maybe I should ask Zeno?". The Kaioshin of U11 proposing the idea is completely irrelevant and has nothing to do with this conversation.

And there's no way Goku could know Zeno would want to erase universes, Zeno said he wanted to do something like the Champa arc tournament, that's what Goku wanted too, not the part of people dying.

That's not the point I've been making. Goku was stupid to go against Beerus and Whis' wishes and ask Zeno for a tournament, but there was nothing wrong or out of character about it. The problem is how Goku acts afterwards after learning he's just sent a bunch of universes to their doom

Also, he couldn't know that he was giving a chance to one of them, because Zeno was going to erase eight, after Goku's remind, only seven.

Yes, that's actually precisely my point. He didn't know he was giving a chance to one of them, and was still acting like a complete asshole about it. People bring up the fact that Goku's reminder means one universe will be saved, but the arc didn't start that way, and Goku didn't start off knowing that information. Soooo logic dictates that anything Goku did or said before knowing that information regarding the erasure of the other universes is for completely fucked purposes that makes Goku look completely indifferent to universes being erased just so he can fight strong dudes.

[Basako]

No, you are misleading with the images you show. Goku reacts totally shocked and with horror when the Daishinkan tells them about erasing universes

I'm not being misleading at all. The only other shots are of Goku quickly saying "The universes are going to be erased!?" (of which Nozawa sounds slightly shocked but only slightly) and this panning shot that lasts 2 seconds: [spoiler][/spoiler]

"Totally shocked and with horror" is definitely a gross exaggeration given those images. But like I said, the reaction isn't the really the point I'm making here. It's the way both Z Goku and Super Goku decided to handle these two situations after they've realized they've fucked up. One realizes his mistake and desperately tries to correct it, while the other seemingly doesn't give a shit and just does whatever.

he does propose the solution of asking Zeno to leave out that rule, which is also proposed by the Kaioshin of U11 later. I'm not blindly defending him, he could show more concern later and his speech to the other universes gods was not wise, but you don't leave out what you want either.

I didn't leave out any of that. I already mentioned that Goku only brings up asking Zeno after the Supreme Kai complains, and it's worded more-so as a "Oh well I can try asking him for you if you want" rather than "Well shit, this isn't good, maybe I should ask Zeno?". The Kaioshin of U11 proposing the idea is completely irrelevant and has nothing to do with this conversation.

And there's no way Goku could know Zeno would want to erase universes, Zeno said he wanted to do something like the Champa arc tournament, that's what Goku wanted too, not the part of people dying.

That's not the point I've been making. Goku was stupid to go against Beerus and Whis' wishes and ask Zeno for a tournament, but there was nothing wrong or out of character about it. The problem is how Goku acts afterwards after learning he's just sent a bunch of universes to their doom

Also, he couldn't know that he was giving a chance to one of them, because Zeno was going to erase eight, after Goku's remind, only seven.

Yes, that's actually precisely my point. He didn't know he was giving a chance to one of them, and was still acting like a complete asshole about it. People bring up the fact that Goku's reminder means one universe will be saved, but the arc didn't start that way, and Goku didn't start off knowing that information. Soooo logic dictates that anything Goku did or said before knowing that information regarding the erasure of the other universes is for completely fucked purposes that makes Goku look completely indifferent to universes being erased just so he can fight strong dudes.

You were missleading with the images you put in there. You wrote 'Goku reacting to the universes being erased', he was totally shocked at first, but you didn't put that image. Then you write 'Goku proposes a solution' and instead of putting an image of that, which you know it happened, you put something completely different.

If anything, Zeno is the villain here, but it's not like they can go against him like other times, no matter how much they train or they fight, he can erase them in seconds. Whis said no to speaking with Zeno, then all they have left is fight. I agree that Goku could be more concerned, but no way he wouldn't be excited about this tournament at the same time.

Universes being erased is not on Goku, is on Zeno, that's his call. On Goku is one universe having a chance and maybe more because the super dragon balls are the reward.

[HeroR]

Beerus: Don't open the lion cage! They have rabies and kill people.

Goku: I know that. *Opens cage full of lions*

Then a bunch of zombies run out of the woods, and the lions destroy them, and decide to become friends with people.

Fans: See! Goku actually saved them! If he didn't open the lion cage, the zombies would have killed everyone.

That analog doesn't work because it isn't fans saying "Goku actually saved them!" it's the show itself. Those eight universes in the Tourument of Power were going to be erased from existence. It happening now or a million years down the road doesn't matter because this isn't death. It's complete non-existence. The tourument gives at least one doomed universe a chance to save itself.

Seriously, this was spelled out several times in the show, but fans can't let go of the "Goku started the tourument, so everything is his fault" narrative.

Both the fans and the show are saying it. Hell, you go on to say that it isn't the fans saying it, then you basically say it yourself. You're exactly the type of person he was referring to in his analogy (which is a very apt analogy, by the way), where thinking that because Goku accidentally found out he gave one universe the chance to survive, that somehow immediately excuses everything he did before that (while having no knowledge of the fact that he would have saved at least one universe)

How can it be fans making 'excuses' when they're literally repeating what the show says. The people who wants to blame everything on Goku are the ones making assumptions like 'Zen'o may forget or do it centuries from now'.

[Will]

Like Whis said :

[Asura]

Like Whis said :

Again, this argument means absolutely nothing. Goku did not know about this, therefore anything Goku did was not within the knowledge of saving one universe. This revelation was not brought up at the start of the arc, so Goku's only motivation was to fight strong guys, and as far as he and everyone else knew at the time, they had just doomed a bunch of universes.

It's Goku's actions and reactions to this information that is problematic. It turning out to be a good thing later down the line does not excuse how Goku acted when people thought it was a bad thing. He had just sent a bunch of universes to their doom, and while it wasn't something he could have anticipated, how he handled the fallout from this information was absolutely awful, with him barely even able to grasp the concept of what just happened and then proceeding to be rude and insulting to the universes that he (at the time) just sent to their doom. How Goku chose to handle this situation was so incredibly out of character for him, and when people say stuff like "Goku is a villain" this is exactly what they're referring to. The argument of "Goku actually saved at least one universe" is a strawman argument because it doesn't mean anything in this situation. It doesn't factor in at all.

You were missleading with the images you put in there. You wrote 'Goku reacting to the universes being erased', he was totally shocked at first, but you didn't put that image. Then you write 'Goku proposes a solution' and instead of putting an image of that, which you know it happened, you put something completely different.

If anything, Zeno is the villain here, but it's not like they can go against him like other times, no matter how much they train or they fight, he can erase them in seconds. Whis said no to speaking with Zeno, then all they have left is fight. I agree that Goku could be more concerned, but no way he wouldn't be excited about this tournament at the same time.

Universes being erased is not on Goku, is on Zeno, that's his call. On Goku is one universe having a chance and maybe more because the super dragon balls are the reward.

Nothing was misleading. I just showed you the image of him being "totally shocked" which again, is a gross exaggeration. I'm not saying he wasn't surprised, he just didn't seem to care much judging by the dialogue. In the cell scene there isn't really any dialogue, but the images just tell it all, especially the scene in which the background changes as if we're going into Goku's psyche where he realizes how wrong he was. In this instance, there is nothing like that. He says "The universe is going to be destroyed!?" has a slightly shocked look on his face, then goes back to seemingly not caring, especially when you judge it just by the dialogue and how little Goku even understood of the situation.

I didn't put the picture of him saying to ask Zeno because that wasn't a solution. It was shot down instantly, meaning Goku had to find a new way to handle this. Goku's solution in the Cell example also failed, but the difference here is that Goku didn't start acting like an asshole. If we were to change the Cell example to be more like the Super example, then after the senzu beans are lost, Goku would just sit there on the sidelines yelling and insulting Gohan. Because while it's Goku's fault that Gohan is now in this position, he doesn't seem to care. Likewise in Super, it's Goku's fault that all these universes are now doomed thanks to him (from what he knew at the time) and what does he do? Doesn't care about them at all, doesn't even realize what he's done, acts like an idiot, proceeds to taunt the other universes, etc.

The universes being erased is at first on Goku. If he had never asked Zeno for that tournament, he wouldn't have wanted to erase all of the universes. This is at least what was known at the time. Now, we know it's not his fault at all, but at the time it seemed like it was, and despite that Goku seems to not only take no responsibility or guilt or even a realization that he just doomed a bunch of universes, but he proceeds to take a step lower and even proceeds to taunt them and make a fool of himself. It was so incredibly out of character for Goku that it just made him look like a braindead moron who couldn't comprehend his actions and reduced him to a caveman with no thought process at all who just wants to fight regardless of the consequences.

[Master Xar]

Like Whis said :

Again, this argument means absolutely nothing. Goku did not know about this, therefore anything Goku did was not within the knowledge of saving one universe. This revelation was not brought up at the start of the arc, so Goku's only motivation was to fight strong guys, and as far as he and everyone else knew at the time, they had just doomed a bunch of universes.

It's Goku's actions and reactions to this information that is problematic. It turning out to be a good thing later down the line does not excuse how Goku acted when people thought it was a bad thing. He had just sent a bunch of universes to their doom, and while it wasn't something he could have anticipated, how he handled the fallout from this information was absolutely awful, with him barely even able to grasp the concept of what just happened and then proceeding to be rude and insulting to the universes that he (at the time) just sent to their doom. How Goku chose to handle this situation was so incredibly out of character for him, and when people say stuff like "Goku is a villain" this is exactly what they're referring to. The argument of "Goku actually saved at least one universe" is a strawman argument because it doesn't mean anything in this situation. It doesn't factor in at all.

You were missleading with the images you put in there. You wrote 'Goku reacting to the universes being erased', he was totally shocked at first, but you didn't put that image. Then you write 'Goku proposes a solution' and instead of putting an image of that, which you know it happened, you put something completely different.

If anything, Zeno is the villain here, but it's not like they can go against him like other times, no matter how much they train or they fight, he can erase them in seconds. Whis said no to speaking with Zeno, then all they have left is fight. I agree that Goku could be more concerned, but no way he wouldn't be excited about this tournament at the same time.

Universes being erased is not on Goku, is on Zeno, that's his call. On Goku is one universe having a chance and maybe more because the super dragon balls are the reward.

Nothing was misleading. I just showed you the image of him being "totally shocked" which again, is a gross exaggeration. I'm not saying he wasn't surprised, he just didn't seem to care much judging by the dialogue. In the cell scene there isn't really any dialogue, but the images just tell it all, especially the scene in which the background changes as if we're going into Goku's psyche where he realizes how wrong he was. In this instance, there is nothing like that. He says "The universe is going to be destroyed!?" has a slightly shocked look on his face, then goes back to seemingly not caring, especially when you judge it just by the dialogue and how little Goku even understood of the situation.

I didn't put the picture of him saying to ask Zeno because that wasn't a solution. It was shot down instantly, meaning Goku had to find a new way to handle this. Goku's solution in the Cell example also failed, but the difference here is that Goku didn't start acting like an asshole. If we were to change the Cell example to be more like the Super example, then after the senzu beans are lost, Goku would just sit there on the sidelines yelling and insulting Gohan. Because while it's Goku's fault that Gohan is now in this position, he doesn't seem to care. Likewise in Super, it's Goku's fault that all these universes are now doomed thanks to him (from what he knew at the time) and what does he do? Doesn't care about them at all, doesn't even realize what he's done, acts like an idiot, proceeds to taunt the other universes, etc.

The universes being erased is at first on Goku. If he had never asked Zeno for that tournament, he wouldn't have wanted to erase all of the universes. This is at least what was known at the time. Now, we know it's not his fault at all, but at the time it seemed like it was, and despite that Goku seems to not only take no responsibility or guilt or even a realization that he just doomed a bunch of universes, but he proceeds to take a step lower and even proceeds to taunt them and make a fool of himself. It was so incredibly out of character for Goku that it just made him look like a braindead moron who couldn't comprehend his actions and reduced him to a caveman with no thought process at all who just wants to fight regardless of the consequences.

He did try to find the one solution, and the one solution was to ask Zeno to not destroy the universes, if that fails there is no getting out of having the universes destroyed, the fact is that he does feel weight under the situation and tried to solve it showing he does care about the stakes of the tournament. His main priority after the failed solution was to make sure his universe survives. Does he show more care during the Cell Games with Gohan? Yes. Because it's Gohan his own flesh and blood child, and he can still fight against the situation unlike with Zeno who completely overpowers him along with the guards and Daishinkan.

Please tell me what other solution there is to saving the other universes outside of his own under any circumstances outside of winning the tournament? He tried asking Zeno to revoke the universe destroying and failed, that was his one Pre-tournament solution to the situation. He MIGHT have a chance with the Super Dragon Balls, but other than that he is shit out of luck, and whining about it solves nothing.

How is bending over and apologizing a suitable solution to the matter at hand? Zeno is going to destroy the universes, kissing up and apologizing to the other universes solves absolutely nothing to that, not to mention Goku challenged the other universes out of the fact that he is just going to get the most out of the situation.

Because like it or not it's not Goku himself condemning or destroying the universes, it's Zeno. People have seriously have got to stop absolving the little runt of any blame on the situation.

[Will]

Like Whis said :

Again, this argument means absolutely nothing. Goku did not know about this, therefore anything Goku did was not within the knowledge of saving one universe. This revelation was not brought up at the start of the arc, so Goku's only motivation was to fight strong guys, and as far as he and everyone else knew at the time, they had just doomed a bunch of universes.

No Goku asked for a tournament to fight strong guys, and there's nothing wrong with that.
It's Zen'o that doomed a bunch of universes.

And this picture of Whis is from episode 80, during the tournament U9 vs U7, before Goku fight with Bergamo.
Goku's speech to others universe about bringing strong fighters happens later when he already had this information.

[Asura]

He did try to find the one solution, and the one solution was to ask Zeno to not destroy the universes, if that fails there is no getting out of having the universes destroyed,

Correct. I'm not arguing against this.

the fact is that he does feel weight under the situation and tried to solve it showing he does care about the stakes of the tournament. His main priority after the failed solution was to make sure his universe survives.

Not correct. Goku doesn't show the fact that he feels any weight under the situation. The only time Goku has ever shown any realization about the weight of the situation was after U9 was erased. His cold hard stare towards the GP and vice-versa showed that he finally understood this isn't just some happy playtime tournament. But back to the exhibition matches, both Beerus and Gohan have to chew him out and he still doesn't seem to think anything is wrong. This is evidenced by the "Huh?" he gives after Beerus asks him if he realizes what he just did, and how after Gohan says it was incredibly irresponsible of him the only thing he has to say is "Beerus and Whis already yelled at me for it" which basically translates to "Yeah whatever Gohan, already heard this before" and yet still doesn't seem to give a damn.

Does he show more care during the Cell Games with Gohan? Yes. Because it's Gohan his own flesh and blood child, and he can still fight against the situation unlike with Zeno who completely overpowers him along with the guards and Daishinkan.

Okay again, this is not even my argument. This has absolutely nothing to do with fighting back against Zeno. I'm saying that his solution of trying to talk Zeno out of it failed, so his plan B is to go yell at all the other universes that he wants to fight strong people. To hell with the fact that he just doomed them all, he just wants to fight strong people.

Please tell me what other solution there is to saving the other universes outside of his own under any circumstances outside of winning the tournament? He tried asking Zeno to revoke the universe destroying and failed, that was his one Pre-tournament solution to the situation. He MIGHT have a chance with the Super Dragon Balls, but other than that he is shit out of luck, and whining about it solves nothing.

And again, nothing to do with my argument. The problem isn't "why isn't Goku doing something else to try and fix his mess" it's more like "why the fuck is Goku acting like an idiot after he caused this mess?" I'm not expecting him to whine, I'm not expecting him to apologize, just one scene where he thinks about it for a bit would be enough. But not only did we not get that, we instead got the complete opposite of apologizing/thinking about it which was to taunt everyone and tell them to bring him strong people to fight. It's the complete opposite direction that Goku should have gone if he was in character. Of course he'd be excited and still want to fight strong dudes regardless, but he wouldn't be literally rubbing it in the other universes faces how he just sent them all to their death because he wants to fight people.

Because like it or not it's not Goku himself condemning or destroying the universes, it's Zeno. People have seriously have got to stop absolving the little runt of any blame on the situation.

Okay, that's like saying there's a lion in the cage, and someone lets that lion out of the cage and it goes on to murder a child. You're saying that the lion is completely at fault and the person who let him out of the cage takes no blame or responsibility?

Obviously we know now that it's all Zeno's fault and Goku actually did a good deed by asking him about the tournament. But at the time? While it wasn't 100% Goku's fault because how could he have anticipated universes being wiped from existence as a result of the tournament, it's still his fault for going and asking Zeno despite Beerus and Whis' warnings. But there's nothing really wrong or out of character about that part, it's just how he acts afterwards that's the problem.

No Goku asked for a tournament to fight strong guys, and there's nothing wrong with that.
It's Zen'o that doomed a bunch of universes.

Why do people keep bringing this up? I never once claimed there was something wrong with him asking Zeno for the tournament. It was stupid of him but it wasn't out of character and it was fine. At the time though, it appeared as if Goku's actions brought about Zeno wanting to erase the universes, meaning he doomed all the universes, or at least that's what it looked like at first. And so acting with the knowledge that he doomed them all by asking for this tournament, Goku shows the complete opposite of remorse and pretty much insults every other universe that as far as he and everyone else was aware, just sent to their graves.

And this picture of Whis is from episode 80, during the tournament U9 vs U7, before Goku fight with Bergamo.
Goku's speech to others universe about bringing strong fighters happens later when he already had this information.

Goku gives a speech in episode 78 to all the universes which basically boils down to "Bring me strong people to fight!". I'm not expecting him to give a speech where he apologizes or something, but to pretty much be like "hey I'm the reason you're all going to die let me fight your strong people" is just so dumb and out of character, as if Goku is so braindead that he only lives to fight strong dudes and can't comprehend anything else anymore.



The good part about all of this though is Goku is finally being written in character consistently since the Freeza episodes. He finally realizes what universal erasure means, and he's finally taking things seriously.

[Master Xar]

He did try to find the one solution, and the one solution was to ask Zeno to not destroy the universes, if that fails there is no getting out of having the universes destroyed,

Correct. I'm not arguing against this.

the fact is that he does feel weight under the situation and tried to solve it showing he does care about the stakes of the tournament. His main priority after the failed solution was to make sure his universe survives.

Not correct. Goku doesn't show the fact that he feels any weight under the situation. The only time Goku has ever shown any realization about the weight of the situation was after U9 was erased. His cold hard stare towards the GP and vice-versa showed that he finally understood this isn't just some happy playtime tournament. But back to the exhibition matches, both Beerus and Gohan have to chew him out and he still doesn't seem to think anything is wrong. This is evidenced by the "Huh?" he gives after Beerus asks him if he realizes what he just did, and how after Gohan says it was incredibly irresponsible of him the only thing he has to say is "Beerus and Whis already yelled at me for it" which basically translates to "Yeah whatever Gohan, already heard this before" and yet still doesn't seem to give a damn.

Does he show more care during the Cell Games with Gohan? Yes. Because it's Gohan his own flesh and blood child, and he can still fight against the situation unlike with Zeno who completely overpowers him along with the guards and Daishinkan.

Okay again, this is not even my argument. This has absolutely nothing to do with fighting back against Zeno. I'm saying that his solution of trying to talk Zeno out of it failed, so his plan B is to go yell at all the other universes that he wants to fight strong people. To hell with the fact that he just doomed them all, he just wants to fight strong people.

Please tell me what other solution there is to saving the other universes outside of his own under any circumstances outside of winning the tournament? He tried asking Zeno to revoke the universe destroying and failed, that was his one Pre-tournament solution to the situation. He MIGHT have a chance with the Super Dragon Balls, but other than that he is shit out of luck, and whining about it solves nothing.

And again, nothing to do with my argument. The problem isn't "why isn't Goku doing something else to try and fix his mess" it's more like "why the fuck is Goku acting like an idiot after he caused this mess?" I'm not expecting him to whine, I'm not expecting him to apologize, just one scene where he thinks about it for a bit would be enough. But not only did we not get that, we instead got the complete opposite of apologizing/thinking about it which was to taunt everyone and tell them to bring him strong people to fight. It's the complete opposite direction that Goku should have gone if he was in character. Of course he'd be excited and still want to fight strong dudes regardless, but he wouldn't be literally rubbing it in the other universes faces how he just sent them all to their death because he wants to fight people.

Because like it or not it's not Goku himself condemning or destroying the universes, it's Zeno. People have seriously have got to stop absolving the little runt of any blame on the situation.

Okay, that's like saying there's a lion in the cage, and someone lets that lion out of the cage and it goes on to murder a child. You're saying that the lion is completely at fault and the person who let him out of the cage takes no blame or responsibility?

Obviously we know now that it's all Zeno's fault and Goku actually did a good deed by asking him about the tournament. But at the time? While it wasn't 100% Goku's fault because how could he have anticipated universes being wiped from existence as a result of the tournament, it's still his fault for going and asking Zeno despite Beerus and Whis' warnings. But there's nothing really wrong or out of character about that part, it's just how he acts afterwards that's the problem.

No Goku asked for a tournament to fight strong guys, and there's nothing wrong with that.
It's Zen'o that doomed a bunch of universes.

Why do people keep bringing this up? I never once claimed there was something wrong with him asking Zeno for the tournament. It was stupid of him but it wasn't out of character and it was fine. At the time though, it appeared as if Goku's actions brought about Zeno wanting to erase the universes, meaning he doomed all the universes, or at least that's what it looked like at first. And so acting with the knowledge that he doomed them all by asking for this tournament, Goku shows the complete opposite of remorse and pretty much insults every other universe that as far as he and everyone else was aware, just sent to their graves.

And this picture of Whis is from episode 80, during the tournament U9 vs U7, before Goku fight with Bergamo.
Goku's speech to others universe about bringing strong fighters happens later when he already had this information.

Goku gives a speech in episode 78 to all the universes which basically boils down to "Bring me strong people to fight!". I'm not expecting him to give a speech where he apologizes or something, but to pretty much be like "hey I'm the reason you're all going to die let me fight your strong people" is just so dumb and out of character, as if Goku is so braindead that he only lives to fight strong dudes and can't comprehend anything else anymore.



The good part about all of this though is Goku is finally being written in character consistently since the Freeza episodes. He finally realizes what universal erasure means, and he's finally taking things seriously.

Zeno isn't a lion my dude that comparison collapses completely under the fact that Zeno is completely aware of his actions (at least from an innocent child POV) and that these are PEOPLE he is erasing, a lion just sees prey and attacks whatever it deems a threat, Goku KNOWS this as he says basically "Zeno has done this in the past let's do our best to win/survive" in the recent episode. Goku didn't let anybody or anything out of a cage, it's still ZENO (a fully sentient being that's been alive for god knows how long) destroying them, Gohan and Beerus can chew for however long they want, facts are facts.

Goku telling the other universes wasn't him saying "hey I'm responsible for destroying your universes" he never said that anywhere, he just said bring your strongest fighters and I will beat them, it was a simple challenge, he wasn't taunting them or making fun of the fact that they are gonna get destroyed, he just doesn't care what people think of him, and he is just gonna do what he does best: Fight and Survive

Goku simply just wants to do the best he can of the situation while having fun, it's not that he doesn't care, he just knows that it's pointless, and as you've said he tried to go and change Zeno's mind and failed, he gave a fairly angry look last episode to Daishinkan. So what exactly do you want out of Goku here?