Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[emperior]

After the events of BoG, Goku was as strong as a SSG in his SSJ and somewhat weaker in his base.
That's why Whis first trained Vegeta for 6 months, where Vegeta was able to catch up to Goku. This was recognized both by Goku (when he arrived he said Vegeta's ki was of a much higher quality) and by Whis (who said that was the right moment for Goku to join Vegeta).
It seems like by holding back their ki in their bodies, Goku and Vegeta learned how to use God Ki - though for some reason that only happens when they turn Blue (that's why I believe the power of SSG is only kept in the SSJ transformation)

Later Goku and Vegeta are as strong as Freezer, whose strength shocked the same people who felt Goku's ki after SSG ran out of time. So, as many of us assumed, Freezer in his final form was probably even stronger than SSG Goku from BoG.

From U6 onwards though it seems like Goku and Vegeta have lost their SSG powered base for some reason (or they refuse to use it), which is probably to use the older forms once again (them using the old forms actually contradicts Goku's SSB explanation, as Goku said SSB was just a SSG powered SSJ and not something like a SSJ4). But there's no comment about what's happening and we're left to believe that either Goku and Vegeta actually have two bases, or else what would be the difference between SSJ and SSB, if Goku only had one base? Has the retcon actually made Blue a sort of SSJ4?

[TheSaiyanGod]

Could Vegeta be able to beat Hitto now?
Some points to take into consideration

- He seemed very confident in saying that he would ''return the favor''
- He already knows Tokitobashi perfectly
- Goku only with SSB was able to break the Toktobashi of Hitto (and Vegeta is as strong or even more than Goku SSB)
- He also saw the fight of Goku and Hitto on Earth, so maybe he knows the intangibility
- He is much stronger than before.

Vegeta could beat Hit only if he saw how Goku was able to beat Hit by over powering his Time Dome thing.

Depends if Hit would be stupid enough to make the same mistake again.

Otherwise no, I don't think he would. Same with Golden Frieza and Super Saiyan Rose Black, they might all be stronger than Hit but they don't have the fighting intelligence or skill to be able to beat Hit.

After Jiren and Goku I'd say Hit was possibly the biggest threat just due to the sheer hax that he has.

But Vegeta was watching the fight when Goku destroyed Hitto's dimension.
The Killer was forced to hide inside her because of Ki's expansion.

But even so, Vegeta could try to understand the techniques of Hitto during the fight, because he saw him fighting Goku on Earth

[ChiefWamsutta]

Well somehow in the fight with Beerus, Base Goku seemed to surpass his Super Saiyan strength to stop that huge energy ball but then by the next episode Super Saiyan was making him stronger again.

Base Vegeta was implied to be stronger than Enraged Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta but then at the same time he can still turn into the normal Super Saiyan from the sound of it.

I really don't know what to make of everything. I don't have too much confidence in the two base theory, a lot of it doesn't really make any sense at all.

I mostly wonder if they're just meant to be dramatically more powerful than before, just not as strong as God.

Acknowledging SBG helps fix a lot of the problems. Now, I am not saying it is the perfect solution, but it does give answers to everything. Keep in mind, the following are not facts, but suggestions of how to interpret things using the Two-Base Theory lens:

It can be seen that Goku in his SS1 Sphere of Destruction channeled the energy from being in that form into his last punch. The scene was too short to necessarily say he was fighting stronger as Base. This could be a suggested answer.

Base Goku -> SS1 Goku -> SS2 Goku -> SS3 Goku -> SSGod Goku = SSGod Radiance Goku (SS1 Sphere of Destruction) = SBG Goku -> SSB Goku -> SSB KK Goku
Base Vegeta -> SS1 Vegeta -> SS2 Vegeta -> Enraged SS2 Vegeta -> SBG Vegeta -> SSB Vegeta

SBG Copy-Vegeta > SS3 Gotenks. SBG Goku = SBG Copy-Vegeta. SBG Goku < Monaka-Beerus. SBG Goku > RoF Final Form Frieza. SSGod Radiance Goku < Beerus. SSGod Goku < Beerus. SS1 Goku = SS1 Gohan. Base Cabba = Base Vegeta. SS1 Cabba = SS1 Vegeta. SS1 Goku = SS1 Caulifla (implied from Ep. 100 preview).

[DBZ Macky]

If Goku's equal to SSG in base, then does that mean SS3 Goku is 400x stronger than God?

[ekrolo2]

If Goku's equal to SSG in base, then does that mean SS3 Goku is 400x stronger than God?

I'd sooner say SS1=SSG but then again, characters keep saying Goku only has God level power with Blue so who knows.

From U6 onwards though it seems like Goku and Vegeta have lost their SSG powered base for some reason (or they refuse to use it), which is probably to use the older forms once again (them using the old forms actually contradicts Goku's SSB explanation, as Goku said SSB was just a SSG powered SSJ and not something like a SSJ4). But there's no comment about what's happening and we're left to believe that either Goku and Vegeta actually have two bases, or else what would be the difference between SSJ and SSB, if Goku only had one base? Has the retcon actually made Blue a sort of SSJ4?

The retcon has definitely just made SSB another transformation instead of an old one changed by a new source of power.

[TheMikado]

If Goku's equal to SSG in base, then does that mean SS3 Goku is 400x stronger than God?

Yes that's exactly what this means which is why everyone was going nuts when Piccolo did as well as he did against Frost. That's why people are still going nuts about Goku matching Gohan as a SSJ3 or even ultimate or Krillin doing anything against a SSJ Goku let alone a SSB Goku. It's why people have a problem is 17. Basically is means every single character that Goku went SSJ1 against is at least several times stronger than SSG and if he went SSB against them them and had any amount of trouble then Oh boy they have have to be hundreds if not 1000s of times stronger than SSG.

[ChiefWamsutta]

If Goku's equal to SSG in base, then does that mean SS3 Goku is 400x stronger than God?

I definitely do not think this is the case. It is either one of two scenarios for Goku:

Base < SS1 < SS2 < SS3 << ___ < SSB < SSB KK

Base < SS1 < SS2 < SS3 << SBG < SSB < SSB KK

The SBG is Saiyan Beyond God, a strong Base.
The ___ is representing that no form is there.

If Goku's equal to SSG in base, then does that mean SS3 Goku is 400x stronger than God?

Yes that's exactly what this means which is why everyone was going nuts when Piccolo did as well as he did against Frost. That's why people are still going nuts about Goku matching Gohan as a SSJ3 or even ultimate or Krillin doing anything against a SSJ Goku let alone a SSB Goku. It's why people have a problem is 17. Basically is means every single character that Goku went SSJ1 against is at least several times stronger than SSG and if he went SSB against them them and had any amount of trouble then Oh boy they have have to be hundreds if not 1000s of times stronger than SSG.

That is what WOULD be the case if there were not a retcon in power, but there are numerous incidents pointing towards SS3 Goku being equal to pre-DBSuper SS3 power.

Everyone in the show is not that strong. Even in the Tournament of Power we have not seen any enemies at SSBlue level except for Toppo and Jiren. Shosa, Majora, Nink, Ganos, Basil, Lavender, Bergamo, Chappil, Comfrey, Hop, Sorrel, Roselle, Oregano, Hyssop, Lilibeu, Napapa, Jium, Murichim, Cocotte, etc., are all Base or SS1 power.

[TheMikado]

If Goku's equal to SSG in base, then does that mean SS3 Goku is 400x stronger than God?

I definitely do not think this is the case. It is either one of two scenarios for Goku:

Base < SS1 < SS2 < SS3 << ___ < SSB < SSB KK

Base < SS1 < SS2 < SS3 << SBG < SSB < SSB KK

The SBG is Saiyan Beyond God, a strong Base.
The ___ is representing that no form is there.

If Goku's equal to SSG in base, then does that mean SS3 Goku is 400x stronger than God?

Yes that's exactly what this means which is why everyone was going nuts when Piccolo did as well as he did against Frost. That's why people are still going nuts about Goku matching Gohan as a SSJ3 or even ultimate or Krillin doing anything against a SSJ Goku let alone a SSB Goku. It's why people have a problem is 17. Basically is means every single character that Goku went SSJ1 against is at least several times stronger than SSG and if he went SSB against them them and had any amount of trouble then Oh boy they have have to be hundreds if not 1000s of times stronger than SSG.

That is what WOULD be the case if there were not a retcon in power, but there are numerous incidents pointing towards SS3 Goku being equal to pre-DBSuper SS3 power.

Everyone in the show is not that strong. Even in the Tournament of Power we have not seen any enemies at SSBlue level except for Toppo and Jiren. Shosa, Majora, Nink, Ganos, Basil, Lavender, Bergamo, Chappil, Comfrey, Hop, Sorrel, Roselle, Oregano, Hyssop, Lilibeu, Napapa, Jium, Murichim, Cocotte, etc., are all Base or SS1 power.

Again I'm not disagreeing that they retcon the power levels however nothing have officially been stated in or out of universe and there are many many if not a majority of fans who do not believe or know that it has been changed. We cannot state that as FACT without something factually stating that to be true. The two base theory, which I was one of the original formers of the theory here in this forum was only a theory and never meant to be preached as fact but as a means of explaining the shoddy at best writing in Super.

[Marlowe89]

If Goku's equal to SSG in base, then does that mean SS3 Goku is 400x stronger than God?

That's presently impossible. Way back in Episode 12, Beerus used the term "Kami no Chikara" to describe SSG Goku's power after he was finally able to power up to the extent that he could match and cancel out Beerus' blows with equal force and direction. Roh uses this exact same term in Episode 81 to describe Goku's power after he transforms into Super Saiyan Blue.

We can safely conclude that Goku doesn't reach that specific level of strength unless he's going Blue now -- I would say the same holds true for the theoretical second base as well, but we don't really know with 100% certainty that it exists in the current narrative.

[ChiefWamsutta]

That is what WOULD be the case if there were not a retcon in power, but there are numerous incidents pointing towards SS3 Goku being equal to pre-DBSuper SS3 power.

Everyone in the show is not that strong. Even in the Tournament of Power we have not seen any enemies at SSBlue level except for Toppo and Jiren. Shosa, Majora, Nink, Ganos, Basil, Lavender, Bergamo, Chappil, Comfrey, Hop, Sorrel, Roselle, Oregano, Hyssop, Lilibeu, Napapa, Jium, Murichim, Cocotte, etc., are all Base or SS1 power.

Again I'm not disagreeing that they retcon the power levels however nothing have officially been stated in or out of universe and there are many many if not a majority of fans who do not believe or know that it has been changed. We cannot state that as FACT without something factually stating that to be true. The two base theory, which I was one of the original formers of the theory here in this forum was only a theory and never meant to be preached as fact but as a means of explaining the shoddy at best writing in Super.

You can freely choose not to state it as a fact, and that is your prerogative, but I see it as a fact that there has been at retcon.

In my personal opinion, when the writing on the wall all leads towards one answer (in this case a retcon of power), it is easier to go with it. Everything adds up to this being the case. This is never going to be overtly stated for the masses, sadly.

If Goku's equal to SSG in base, then does that mean SS3 Goku is 400x stronger than God?

That's presently impossible. Way back in Episode 12, Beerus used the term "Kami no Chikara" to describe SSG Goku's power after he was finally able to power up to the extent that he could match and cancel out Beerus' blows with equal force and direction. Roh uses this exact same term in Episode 81 to describe Goku's power after he transforms into Super Saiyan Blue.

We can safely conclude that Goku doesn't reach that specific level of strength unless he's going Blue now -- I would say the same holds true for the theoretical second base as well, but we don't really know with 100% certainty that it exists in the current narrative.

I agree with you here. Ever since Goku and Vegeta unlocked blue, they have slowly been shifting away from their Saiyan Beyond God forms (in-universe explanation). Goku used it against RoF Frieza, then Monaka-Beerus, and shifted away from using it, just like he shifted away from SS3.

SSGod -- BoG
SSGod Radiance -- BoG
SBG -- RoF, U6, FT
SSBlue -- RoF, U6, FT, US
SSBlue KK -- U6, FT, US

You could argue that as time goes on, Goku fazed out of using the old god forms.

Obviously, out-of-universe, a retcon occurred, and SSGod Radiance and SBG were the result of the confusion.

[TheMikado]

That is what WOULD be the case if there were not a retcon in power, but there are numerous incidents pointing towards SS3 Goku being equal to pre-DBSuper SS3 power.

Everyone in the show is not that strong. Even in the Tournament of Power we have not seen any enemies at SSBlue level except for Toppo and Jiren. Shosa, Majora, Nink, Ganos, Basil, Lavender, Bergamo, Chappil, Comfrey, Hop, Sorrel, Roselle, Oregano, Hyssop, Lilibeu, Napapa, Jium, Murichim, Cocotte, etc., are all Base or SS1 power.

Again I'm not disagreeing that they retcon the power levels however nothing have officially been stated in or out of universe and there are many many if not a majority of fans who do not believe or know that it has been changed. We cannot state that as FACT without something factually stating that to be true. The two base theory, which I was one of the original formers of the theory here in this forum was only a theory and never meant to be preached as fact but as a means of explaining the shoddy at best writing in Super.

You can freely choose not to state it as a fact, and that is your prerogative, but I see it as a fact that there has been at retcon.

In my personal opinion, when the writing on the wall all leads towards one answer (in this case a retcon of power), it is easier to go with it. Everything adds up to this being the case. This is never going to be overtly stated for the masses, sadly.

If Goku's equal to SSG in base, then does that mean SS3 Goku is 400x stronger than God?

That's presently impossible. Way back in Episode 12, Beerus used the term "Kami no Chikara" to describe SSG Goku's power after he was finally able to power up to the extent that he could match and cancel out Beerus' blows with equal force and direction. Roh uses this exact same term in Episode 81 to describe Goku's power after he transforms into Super Saiyan Blue.

We can safely conclude that Goku doesn't reach that specific level of strength unless he's going Blue now -- I would say the same holds true for the theoretical second base as well, but we don't really know with 100% certainty that it exists in the current narrative.

I agree with you here. Ever since Goku and Vegeta unlocked blue, they have slowly been shifting away from their Saiyan Beyond God forms (in-universe explanation). Goku used it against RoF Frieza, then Monaka-Beerus, and shifted away from using it, just like he shifted away from SS3.

SSGod -- BoG
SSGod Radiance -- BoG
SBG -- RoF, U6, FT
SSBlue -- RoF, U6, FT, US
SSBlue KK -- U6, FT, US

You could argue that as time goes on, Goku fazed out of using the old god forms.

Obviously, out-of-universe, a retcon occurred, and SSGod Radiance and SBG were the result of the confusion.

I'm not calling it a retcon because we don't know if that's ever what the story was supposed to be for Super. There's a good chance that Toriyamas actual intentions for Super the series were to always have a weaker base similar to the manga and Toei F'ed up. So what happens if they show an episode where Base Goku is stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks again or equal to Beerus then what?? Are you gonna state that they retconned the retcon and that's absolute fact too? The point is only a fool would state something as fact which they know nothing about. Until stated as such in universe or out all we have are theories and stating them as fact is foolish when we have no idea what happened in production or even what's in store for the next episode. Again I agree with the theory but I disapprove of claiming it as fact and preaching to others as if it's the gospel truth.

[ChiefWamsutta]

The point is only a fool would state something as fact which they know nothing about. Until stated as such in universe or out all we have are theories and stating them as fact is foolish when we have no idea what happened in production or even what's in store for the next episode. Again I agree with the theory but I disapprove of claiming it as fact and preaching to others as if it's the gospel truth.

I treat the show how I want to treat the show, but, with that being said, you and I are done talking. Your words come across as crass, and I do not want to engage in conversation with someone who is implying I am a fool.

Please just end this here.

[Bullza]

Acknowledging SBG helps fix a lot of the problems.

It makes sense with a lot of things but it's the issue of the randomness of when they would be using it.

Goku goes to Beerus' planet and sees Vegeta and says his Ki has a different quality to it and he's probably stronger than him now. So was Vegeta in SBG there? Just standing there not doing anything?

Vegeta turns Blue when Mr Satan makes Bra cry so was he in SBG there for no reason?

If SBG is stronger than Super Saiyan 3 then why do they use the regular Super Saiyan forms? Is there supposed to be some drawback to using SBG?

I just find it hard to believe it's a thing, that it's something Toei is aware of and is including in their show, didn't explain it but then expect kids to realise what they're doing when even people here have no idea what's going on.

People theorise it's a thing because if Super Saiyan Blue is just him turning Super Saiyan but then the original Super Saiyan still exists then their must be two different base states that he's transforming from.

But if there is actually more to Super Saiyan Blue than most people think and this whole Ki leaking thing is the main reason why it's different then there's no need for two bases.

If Goku's equal to SSG in base, then does that mean SS3 Goku is 400x stronger than God?

It's ​probably what it would mean but then it'd mean Super Saiyan Blue is over 400x stronger than God. With Kaioken x10 he'd be over 4,000 stronger than God and that's obviously not true at all because Beerus is stronger still and if he was thousands of times than Super Saiyan God Goku then he wouldn't have told him he briefly regretted seeking him out.

I'd say the only time a regular Super Saiyan form has been God level was when he fought Beerus. Any other time it's been weaker.

[avasatu]

Can someone make a comprehensive list of all instances where a Saiyan must be/is commonly thought to be using SBG? Time to debunk them all and stop talking in circles. We're saying the same stuff over and over

[TheMikado]

The point is only a fool would state something as fact which they know nothing about. Until stated as such in universe or out all we have are theories and stating them as fact is foolish when we have no idea what happened in production or even what's in store for the next episode. Again I agree with the theory but I disapprove of claiming it as fact and preaching to others as if it's the gospel truth.

I treat the show how I want to treat the show, but, with that being said, you and I are done talking. Your words come across as crass, and I do not want to engage in conversation with someone who is implying I am a fool.

Please just end this here.

It's a general rule about anything, not just the show. It's also more to ask you stop telling others who wander into the forum that something is in fact when it's not. You're free to think however you feel but you're not free to spread misinformation as fact. The discussion between you and I may be over but I will surely comment everytime you attempt to sell your personal theory, which again I agree with, as unadulterated fact.

[ChiefWamsutta]

It's a general rule about anything, not just the show.

I really don't need life advice, haha, but I appreciate the sentiment.

It's also more to ask you stop telling others who wander into the forum that something is in fact when it's not. You're free to think however you feel but you're not free to spread misinformation as fact.

If, for some reason, my wording made it sound like I was trying to tell people it was a fact, then that is my fault.

The discussion between you and I may be over but I will surely comment everytime you attempt to sell your personal theory, which again I agree with, as unadulterated fact.

Good lord, okay, let's relax here. I do not mean this in a negative way, but can you understand how that sounds crusader-like? I really would prefer if you didn't act like I was some enemy, haha. This was a miscommunication. Let it go.

[Marlowe89]

The point is only a fool would state something as fact which they know nothing about. Until stated as such in universe or out all we have are theories and stating them as fact is foolish when we have no idea what happened in production or even what's in store for the next episode. Again I agree with the theory but I disapprove of claiming it as fact and preaching to others as if it's the gospel truth.

This really depends on whatever happens to be the topic of discussion. Stuff like the two base theory is, as its name suggests, indeed a theory. Maybe Goku has access to two different base states, or maybe the writers at Toei realized that the whole Godly base thing established in RoF wasn't jibing with the rest of the material provided by Toyotaro and Toriyama for Super and so they decided to change Goku's strength. There could be all sorts of supporting evidence for varying hypotheses, but like you said, none of them ascend to the status of being a confirmed fact until they're directly stated as such or at least strongly alluded to.

However, Super Saiyan 3 Goku being weaker than Super Saiyan God Goku in the current narrative is something I would absolutely call a confirmed fact for reasons stated above. If a specific Japanese term established to describe a powered-up Super Saiyan God Goku then becomes commonly associated exclusively with Super Saiyan Blue and only Super Saiyan Blue, that should be taken as nothing less than an official acknowledgment that Blue is the only form in Goku's repertoire possessing that level of power.

But if there is actually more to Super Saiyan Blue than most people think and this whole Ki leaking thing is the main reason why it's different then there's no need for two bases.

I'm not so sure about that; to me, that would still definitely undermine Goku's stated definition for Blue. If preventing one's ki from leaking is something that could only be fully achieved in Blue and was the only distinguishing factor that separated Blue from Super Saiyan, it's hard to see how it would then be called "the Super Saiyan form of a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God". You'd have to assume that the whole line was disregarded by Toei's staff, despite the fact that it was specifically included both in RoF and in Super.

[Bullza]

I'm not so sure about that; to me, that would still definitely undermine Goku's stated definition for Blue. If preventing one's ki from leaking is something that could only be fully achieved in Blue and was the only distinguishing factor that separated Blue from Super Saiyan, it's hard to see how it would then be called "the Super Saiyan form of a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God".

Well I don't know how it would work exactly but if Base Goku had Super Saiyan God's powers then

1. Why does he not have a Super Saiyan Godly aura? He has the same one he's always had. Why does he only have it when he turns Blue?

2. Why are they able to sense Saiyan Beyond God but then they can't sense Super Saiyan Blue if all he's doing is turning Super Saiyan?

He must be doing something else if his Ki can suddenly no longer be sensed which would seem to come back to the Ki leaking business which when that was first attempted was when you saw the very same Blue aura too. It all appears connected somehow.

3. Like I said before it's weird that King Kai only mentioned he'd become a God (on his own this time) after he turned Blue when he would have supposedly have had that very power burning in him the whole time he was fighting Frieza.


Additionally it did sort of seem like Vegeta first experienced God Ki when he was thrown into Whis' staff (otherwise he shouldn't have been surprised by its pressure) so he would not have been a Saiyan Beyond God prior to this, so would not have been as strong as Super Saiyan God but would still have been at his strongest he'd ever been just due to training.

[Neon Z]

If Goku's equal to SSG in base, then does that mean SS3 Goku is 400x stronger than God?

I'd sooner say SS1=SSG but then again, characters keep saying Goku only has God level power with Blue so who knows.

Gowasu in the Trunks arc said that Goku had God of Destruction level power when he went SSJ2. Beerus corrected him, but it's still clear it was meant to be a large power.

[ChiefWamsutta]

Can someone make a comprehensive list of all instances where a Saiyan must be/is commonly thought to be using SBG? Time to debunk them all and stop talking in circles. We're saying the same stuff over and over

Haha, I will give this a go. Okay, so this is what I believe were the instances of using Saiyan Beyond God.

Preface #1: Super Saiyan God Goku vs. Beerus.
Preface #2: Super Saiyan God Radiance Goku (SS1 in Outer Space) vs. Beerus.

Instance #1: SBG Goku vs. Beerus (Final Punch during Sphere of Destruction attack).
Instance #2: SBG Goku vs. SBG Vegeta (Training with Whis).
Instance #3: SBG Goku vs. RoF Final Form Frieza.
Instance #4: SBG Goku vs. SBG Vegeta (Angry about taking too long fighting Frieza).
Instance #5: SBG Goku vs. Hit (Testing out his Tokitobashi).
Instance #6: SBG Goku vs. Monaka-Beerus.
Instance #7: SBG Copy-Vegeta vs. SS3 Gotenks.
Instance #8: SBG Copy-Vegeta vs. SBG Goku.
Instance #9: SBG Goku Black (Restricted Power) vs. Future Trunks.
Instance #10: SBG Goku Black (Restricted Power) vs. SS2 Goku.
Instance #11: SBG Goku Black (Full Power) vs. SSB Vegeta.
Instance #12: SBG Goku vs. Slim Buu.
Instance #13: SBG Goku vs. Golden Frieza (The one-punch fight after defeating the U9 assassins).