Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ZombieVito]

Can someone make a comprehensive list of all instances where a Saiyan must be/is commonly thought to be using SBG? Time to debunk them all and stop talking in circles. We're saying the same stuff over and over

Haha, I will give this a go. Okay, so this is what I believe were the instances of using Saiyan Beyond God.

Preface #1: Super Saiyan God Goku vs. Beerus.
Preface #2: Super Saiyan God Radiance Goku (SS1 in Outer Space) vs. Beerus.

Instance #1: SBG Goku vs. Beerus (Final Punch during Sphere of Destruction attack).
Instance #2: SBG Goku vs. SBG Vegeta (Training with Whis).
Instance #3: SBG Goku vs. RoF Final Form Frieza.
Instance #4: SBG Goku vs. SBG Vegeta (Angry about taking too long fighting Frieza).
Instance #5: SBG Goku vs. Hit (Testing out his Tokitobashi).
Instance #6: SBG Goku vs. Monaka-Beerus.
Instance #7: SBG Copy-Vegeta vs. SS3 Gotenks.
Instance #8: SBG Copy-Vegeta vs. SBG Goku.
Instance #9: SBG Goku Black (Restricted Power) vs. Future Trunks.
Instance #10: SBG Goku Black (Restricted Power) vs. SS2 Goku.
Instance #11: SBG Goku Black (Full Power) vs. SSB Vegeta.
Instance #12: SBG Goku vs. Slim Buu.
Instance #13: SBG Goku vs. Golden Frieza (The one-punch fight after defeating the U9 assassins).

You forgot one. When Goku endured Piccolo's Super Explosive Wave in episode 90.

[Bulma's Foot Masseur]

The whole point of absorbing God power into oneself should be that it becomes indistinguishable from your own power, aka literally becoming "yours." I don't see how it's suddenly something that you have to actively "cut on" to transform into entirely different forms, and I definitely don't see it having drawbacks ala stamina drain just to ensure Super Saiyan 1 still has a purpose.

Believing Super Saiyan is somehow hundreds/thousands of times weaker than a God base is just going to lead to battles where Goku and Vegeta are thought to be fighting in said God base only to turn SSJ1/SSJ2 and prove everyone wrong. That's probably already happened.

[DBZ Macky]

Believing Super Saiyan is somehow hundreds/thousands of times weaker than a God base is just going to lead to battles where Goku and Vegeta are thought to be fighting in said God base only to turn SSJ1/SSJ2 and prove everyone wrong. That's probably already happened.

You forgot one. When Goku endured Piccolo's Super Explosive Wave in episode 90.

Goku turned into SS2 after enduring Piccolo's attack.

[Doctor.]

So how strong is Kuririn now? He seems comparable to #18, despite being the weaker of the two. Has he surpassed early android arc Super Saiyans?

[LowRyder2005]

The whole point of absorbing God power into oneself should be that it becomes indistinguishable from your own power, aka literally becoming "yours." I don't see how it's suddenly something that you have to actively "cut on" to transform into entirely different forms, and I definitely don't see it having drawbacks ala stamina drain just to ensure Super Saiyan 1 still has a purpose.

Believing Super Saiyan is somehow hundreds/thousands of times weaker than a God base is just going to lead to battles where Goku and Vegeta are thought to be fighting in said God base only to turn SSJ1/SSJ2 and prove everyone wrong. That's probably already happened.

I'd deem those as false problems, for the most part. If one wanted to advocate that Goku should favor the form over Super Saiyan 1/2/3 because it'd be the most efficient thing to do, then it still fits with Goku's patented m.o. of constantly handicapping himself before going all out. If it sounds contrived that a character had a base-looking form that dwarves Super Saiyan forms, we have Gohan who already did and even showed it.

I suppose, though, that the critical factor at play here is that the latter case was acknowledged by the narration - unlike the whole Saiyan Beyond God, or to put it in better terms, the possibility of having a base form stronger than Super Saiyan 1/2/3 and a base form weaker at the same time.

As patchwork-y as the theory as a whole is, we'd all need to acknoweldge much sooner that the show doesn't take itself nearly as seriously in avoiding plain headscratchers or blatant contradictions. Even disregarding the issue of the base form's strength (which already falls in this very category), we'd have a feat putting base Goku above a fully powered Piccolo, apparently. This Piccolo was in turn established to be vastly stronger than Super Saiyan Gohan without even trying, and yet the show had made very clear that the same Super Saiyan Gohan could still match Super Saiyan Goku. You don't get with a perfect square no matter how you look at things without indulging in some highly debatable scenario, be it Beyond God or kind of irrational behaviors.

[Marlowe89]

I myself have no trouble admitting that the two base theory comes across as fanon patchwork more often than not, especially when people try to apply it to outlier scenarios like Goku tanking a charged attack from Piccolo. Personally, my initial support for the idea wasn't so much based on those instances, but rather previous official descriptions for Super Saiyan Blue and accompanied implications that would arise from the yellow forms returning to the narrative.

The belief that Goku has a God base that can further transform into yellow Super Saiyan forms is, in fact, equally problematic -- it just blatantly disregards what we were explicitly told about Blue in definitions for the form conveyed in various materials ranging from the RoF movie to games like Dokkan Battle to a line in Super and maybe even other mediums. Put simply, IF Blue isn't actually the Super Saiyan form of a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God, why would Goku call it that? If it's just Super Saiyan with advanced ki control as some have proposed, why couldn't he have just mentioned that instead? Why mislead the viewers into believing something that apparently isn't actually true?

Regardless of where one would stand on the issue, there's always an implicit assumption that something in the show was retconned or otherwise discarded altogether by Super's writers.

[Lord Beerus]

So how strong is Kuririn now? He seems comparable to #18, despite being the weaker of the two. Has he surpassed early android arc Super Saiyans?

Hell no. Krillin ain't touching any of the Super Saiyans from any era. He's did well against Base Goku and Base Gohan, but that was as good as it got for him. Had he not used the Solar Flare x100, Base Gohan would have kicked his ass.

[JulianStyles]

So how strong is Kuririn now? He seems comparable to #18, despite being the weaker of the two. Has he surpassed early android arc Super Saiyans?

Hell no. Krillin ain't touching any of the Super Saiyans from any era. He's did well against Base Goku and Base Gohan, but that was as good as it got for him. Had he not used the Solar Flare x100, Base Gohan would have kicked his ass.

I have to agree with doctor. Theres two kinds of DB fans in regards to the "Earthlings*". Those who say dumb things like they never reached captain Ginyu or a million. Then theres the smart fans that understand they are powerful. Just the main characters sky rocketed to crazy numbers.

If I say Vegeta in the Android Arc was 250million. 18 300mil. Then I say Yamcha was 4mil. Does that really affect the narrative? In fact theres evidence to support that. Piccolo told everyone dont bother showing up if you cant handle it. These are enemies beyond Freeza's 120mil and beyond Gokus 150mil. Think Yamcha,Krillin and Tien are showing up with PLs of 200k? No. Dr. Gero mistook Yamcha for Goku. Gero calculated how strong Goku could get. But he didnt know about SS. How strong was Goku before turning SS the first time? 3mil.

Now the analyze Krillin. He landed punches on the wolf that 18 couldnt. The fox seemed confident in taking on both 18 and Krillin. So this fox was no weakling yet Krillin did not struggle in hand to hand combat with him.

Based on that Krillin isnt that far away from current 18. Which means hes stronger than Super Sayains in early android saga. It doesnt take anything away if youre a sayain lover. But be objective and real. Plot demanded for him to be this strong thus he is. Hell Goku base is above SS3 Gotenks. Krillin forced him to go SS in order to stop sliding. So no his combat power isnt equal to current SS Goku. But to allow that to happen. You can say hes stronger than SS2 Gotenks.

The narrator and promotional material said these are the 10 strongest warriors. Period.

[TheDipDap1234]

So how strong is Kuririn now? He seems comparable to #18, despite being the weaker of the two. Has he surpassed early android arc Super Saiyans?

Hell no. Krillin ain't touching any of the Super Saiyans from any era. He's did well against Base Goku and Base Gohan, but that was as good as it got for him. Had he not used the Solar Flare x100, Base Gohan would have kicked his ass.

I have to agree with doctor. Theres two kinds of DB fans in regards to the "Earthlings*". Those who say dumb things like they never reached captain Ginyu or a million. Then theres the smart fans that understand they are powerful. Just the main characters sky rocketed to crazy numbers.

If I say Vegeta in the Android Arc was 250million. 18 300mil. Then I say Yamcha was 4mil. Does that really affect the narrative? In fact theres evidence to support that. Piccolo told everyone dont bother showing up if you cant handle it. These are enemies beyond Freeza's 120mil and beyond Gokus 150mil. Think Yamcha,Krillin and Tien are showing up with PLs of 200k? No. Dr. Gero mistook Yamcha for Goku. Gero calculated how strong Goku could get. But he didnt know about SS. How strong was Goku before turning SS the first time? 3mil.

Now the analyze Krillin. He landed punches on the wolf that 18 couldnt. The fox seemed confident in taking on both 18 and Krillin. So this fox was no weakling yet Krillin did not struggle in hand to hand combat with him.

Based on that Krillin isnt that far away from current 18. Which means hes stronger than Super Sayains in early android saga. It doesnt take anything away if youre a sayain lover. But be objective and real. Plot demanded for him to be this strong thus he is. Hell Goku base is above SS3 Gotenks. Krillin forced him to go SS in order to stop sliding. So no his combat power isnt equal to current SS Goku. But to allow that to happen. You can say hes stronger than SS2 Gotenks.

The narrator and promotional material said these are the 10 strongest warriors. Period.

18 was seen beating Shosa, but then she was caught off-guard which almost made her get eliminated. She and Krillin easily defeated Shosa together, eventhough I highly think 18 could have defeated Shosa alone. Majora managed to land a hit on 18 but that's only because she was caught off guard again. She thought that Krillin's Solar Flare will work on him. After that we didn't see her fight with Majora again, as Krillin told her to let him fight with Majora since he has a special plan to defeat him. I think Shosa was the weakest of the 4, Majora was on par with Krillin, and 18 is stronger than all 3 of them. I don't think Krillin is Super Saiyan level. Probably namek Freeza level at best.

[JulianStyles]

When 18 and Krillin teamed up on Shosa. Krillin got a gut shot in while Shosa blocked attacks from 18. Also in DB we know if a character is out anothers leqgue either attacks wont work or they are too fast. So the gap between Krillin and 18 is not 500k to 5billion. Krillin may have a PL in the high millions.

[Bullza]

Put simply, IF Blue isn't actually the Super Saiyan form of a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God, why would Goku call it that?

That part likely is correct. What might be wrong is the assumption that there is a Base Goku who does have the power of Super Saiyan God.

Maybe when he turns into Super Saiyan Blue he's tapping into both his Super Saiyan God power and his Super Saiyan power at the same time. Could we why after that happened King Kai mentioned he'd become a God on his own and why his Ki disappeared and all that.

If he wanted to perhaps he could turn into the regular Super Saiyan God just like in the manga. The anime might not be as different from the manga as we all assume it to be.

[Shinda Forever]

So how strong is Kuririn now? He seems comparable to #18, despite being the weaker of the two. Has he surpassed early android arc Super Saiyans?

What makes you think that? A-18 was holding back all the time. In my opinion, A-18 would have beaten the wolf and the fox at the same time easily if she wanted.

[ekrolo2]

So how strong is Kuririn now? He seems comparable to #18, despite being the weaker of the two. Has he surpassed early android arc Super Saiyans?

What makes you think that? A-18 was holding back all the time. In my opinion, A-18 would have beaten the wolf and the fox at the same time easily if she wanted.

And she doesn't do that because?

[Shinda Forever]

So how strong is Kuririn now? He seems comparable to #18, despite being the weaker of the two. Has he surpassed early android arc Super Saiyans?

What makes you think that? A-18 was holding back all the time. In my opinion, A-18 would have beaten the wolf and the fox at the same time easily if she wanted.

And she doesn't do that because?

Because, she was afraid to kill them, both were weaklings.

[ekrolo2]

What makes you think that? A-18 was holding back all the time. In my opinion, A-18 would have beaten the wolf and the fox at the same time easily if she wanted.

And she doesn't do that because?

Because, she was afraid to kill them, both were weaklings.

That doesn't work, strong people can beat up inferior people at full strength without killing them. That's what Goku does to the Ginyu Force.

[Shinda Forever]

And she doesn't do that because?

Because, she was afraid to kill them, both were weaklings.

That doesn't work, strong people can beat up inferior people at full strength without killing them. That's what Goku does to the Ginyu Force.

She said that she was holding back against the wolf.

[Marlowe89]

That part likely is correct. What might be wrong is the assumption that there is a Base Goku who does have the power of Super Saiyan God.

The issue is that the "Super Saiyan" part of that statement is apparently a modifier of the term "Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God". I had a private PM conversation with Herms a while back and this was his breakdown of the translation:

In Japanese it's:

超サイヤ人ゴッドのパワーを持ったサイヤ人の超サイヤ人
Suupaa Saiya-jin Goddo no pawaa wo motta Saiya-jin no Suupaa Saiya-jin

At root it's the word "Super Saiyan" modified by the preceding clause "Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God". In other words, the Super Saiyan (form) of a Saiyan-with-the-power-of-Super-Saiyan-God.

With the inclusion of Saiyan-with-the-power-of-Super-Saiyan-God in Goku's statement, it would seem that it was at one time intended to be a thing and Blue was said to be the Super Saiyan form of that. This also jibes with Super's Funimation dub line where Goku says "I know you don't have the patience for the full story Frieza, but I got a taste of something called Super Saiyan God and then tapped into that power on my own, and it's the Super Saiyan level of that" (you can watch that scene here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEEoYVMybtI).

Maybe when he turns into Super Saiyan Blue he's tapping into both his Super Saiyan God power and his Super Saiyan power at the same time. Could we why after that happened King Kai mentioned he'd become a God on his own and why his Ki disappeared and all that.

If he wanted to perhaps he could turn into the regular Super Saiyan God just like in the manga. The anime might not be as different from the manga as we all assume it to be.

That is an interesting idea and it's actually something I had theorized around the time of RoF's theatrical release in Japan -- although if Goku can indeed transform into a Super Saiyan God in the anime, one would then wonder why he hasn't at least shown it off once in the 80+ episodes of Super's duration post-BoG.

[ekrolo2]

Because, she was afraid to kill them, both were weaklings.

That doesn't work, strong people can beat up inferior people at full strength without killing them. That's what Goku does to the Ginyu Force.

She said that she was holding back against the wolf.

Ye and that doesn't make sense if she's stronger then him and can apparently swat him like a fly no problem. Seriously, we've seen strong people smack around weaker one's at full power without killing them, it's not impossible. Second Form Freeza rips Gohan a new asshole and the kid doesn't die there.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Maybe when he turns into Super Saiyan Blue he's tapping into both his Super Saiyan God power and his Super Saiyan power at the same time. Could we why after that happened King Kai mentioned he'd become a God on his own and why his Ki disappeared and all that.

If he wanted to perhaps he could turn into the regular Super Saiyan God just like in the manga. The anime might not be as different from the manga as we all assume it to be.

That is an interesting idea and it's actually something I had theorized around the time of RoF's theatrical release in Japan -- although if Goku can indeed transform into a Super Saiyan God in the anime, one would then wonder why he hasn't at least shown it off once in the 80+ episodes of Super's duration post-BoG.

That's how I saw it myself. However, where I differ is SSG still being around. I believe that SSG's power is with Goku and Vegeta all the time, but they can't tap into it from base form, and thus no actual SSG form, just very strong normal forms. Thus, we come to Bullza's interpretation, where SS is being used to accomplish this, acting as a conduit for a Saiyan's godly power to be fully expressed..

[Shinda Forever]

That doesn't work, strong people can beat up inferior people at full strength without killing them. That's what Goku does to the Ginyu Force.

She said that she was holding back against the wolf.

Ye and that doesn't make sense if she's stronger then him and can apparently swat him like a fly no problem. Seriously, we've seen strong people smack around weaker one's at full power without killing them, it's not impossible. Second Form Freeza rips Gohan a new asshole and the kid doesn't die there.

DB doesn't make sense many times, the fact is that she was holding back and called him weakling.