Toei Incompetence: Revisiting the "Sword of Hope" Asspull

[MaskedRider]

I personally don't see an issue with the Sword of Hope. It works for me both symbolically and him utilizing energy given to him by everyone and everything on the planet as a joint effort to stop Zamasu.

There is no difference in Trunks concentrating his energy to fix the tip of his broken sword and Vegetto & Zamasu using their ki blades. Trunks didn't call for the energy of the life on the planet, the energy formed on its own before he asked for it - if you pay attention you can hear Zamasu's blade and Trunk's sword still clashing and I think this is where the confusion comes from, Trunks isn't pointing his sword upward and having the energy come to him because he is gathering it on his own, it just so happens he be in that pose.

My only real "hmm" is when the color of ki changes from yellow to blue.

[GodKaio-Ken]

I personally don't see an issue with the Sword of Hope. It works for me both symbolically and him utilizing energy given to him by everyone and everything on the planet as a joint effort to stop Zamasu.

There is no difference in Trunks concentrating his energy to fix the tip of his broken sword and Vegetto & Zamasu using their ki blades. Trunks didn't call for the energy of the life on the planet, the energy formed on its own before he asked for it - if you pay attention you can hear Zamasu's blade and Trunk's sword still clashing and I think this is where the confusion comes from, Trunks isn't pointing his sword upward and having the energy come to him because he is gathering it on his own, it just so happens he be in that pose.

My only real "hmm" is when the color of ki changes from yellow to blue.

Even if you think the technique is okay...there were like 20 people on Earth. It shouldnt have been powerful enough.

[MaskedRider]

I personally don't see an issue with the Sword of Hope. It works for me both symbolically and him utilizing energy given to him by everyone and everything on the planet as a joint effort to stop Zamasu.

There is no difference in Trunks concentrating his energy to fix the tip of his broken sword and Vegetto & Zamasu using their ki blades. Trunks didn't call for the energy of the life on the planet, the energy formed on its own before he asked for it - if you pay attention you can hear Zamasu's blade and Trunk's sword still clashing and I think this is where the confusion comes from, Trunks isn't pointing his sword upward and having the energy come to him because he is gathering it on his own, it just so happens he be in that pose.

My only real "hmm" is when the color of ki changes from yellow to blue.

Even if you think the technique is okay...there were like 20 people on Earth. It shouldnt have been powerful enough.

Maybe but Goku and Vegeta gave Trunks energy directly to him. There is also Trunks being in his Ikari state which expands his energy dramatically as Supreme Kai noted.

[Boo Machine]

I personally don't see an issue with the Sword of Hope. It works for me both symbolically and him utilizing energy given to him by everyone and everything on the planet as a joint effort to stop Zamasu.

There is no difference in Trunks concentrating his energy to fix the tip of his broken sword and Vegetto & Zamasu using their ki blades. Trunks didn't call for the energy of the life on the planet, the energy formed on its own before he asked for it - if you pay attention you can hear Zamasu's blade and Trunk's sword still clashing and I think this is where the confusion comes from, Trunks isn't pointing his sword upward and having the energy come to him because he is gathering it on his own, it just so happens he be in that pose.

My only real "hmm" is when the color of ki changes from yellow to blue.

Even if you think the technique is okay...there were like 20 people on Earth. It shouldnt have been powerful enough.

I usually equate the Spirit sword to the likes of the Spirit Bomb that took out Kid buu, which has the opposite issue. Maybe technically the Spirit sword shouldn't be strong enough to beat Zamasu, kind of like there is no way the Goku needed all of the earth's energy to beat Kid Buu, when the energy of his friends should have technically been more than enough.

But in both cases it wasn't about the power, it was about what it represented. Symbolism and all that. It makes no sense when you apply math to it, but thematically it works. Which is why a lot of people are Ok with it even despite knowing that it's a rush job that came out of nowhere.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Why is this being dug up again? We all have our own answers, you either love the end of the FT Arc for thematic reasons, or you hate it for going out of its way not to have any semblance of sense. Toei as a corporation isn't at fault for the the decisions of an individual director.

I think that's all that needs to be said on the matter, really.

[GodKaio-Ken]

I personally don't see an issue with the Sword of Hope. It works for me both symbolically and him utilizing energy given to him by everyone and everything on the planet as a joint effort to stop Zamasu.

There is no difference in Trunks concentrating his energy to fix the tip of his broken sword and Vegetto & Zamasu using their ki blades. Trunks didn't call for the energy of the life on the planet, the energy formed on its own before he asked for it - if you pay attention you can hear Zamasu's blade and Trunk's sword still clashing and I think this is where the confusion comes from, Trunks isn't pointing his sword upward and having the energy come to him because he is gathering it on his own, it just so happens he be in that pose.

My only real "hmm" is when the color of ki changes from yellow to blue.

Even if you think the technique is okay...there were like 20 people on Earth. It shouldnt have been powerful enough.

I usually equate the Spirit sword to the likes of the Spirit Bomb that took out Kid buu, which has the opposite issue. Maybe technically the Spirit sword shouldn't be strong enough to beat Zamasu, kind of like there is no way the Goku needed all of the earth's energy to beat Kid Buu, when the energy of his friends should have technically been more than enough.

But in both cases it wasn't about the power, it was about what it represented. Symbolism and all that. It makes no sense when you apply math to it, but thematically it works. Which is why a lot of people are Ok with it even despite knowing that it's a rush job that came out of nowhere.

The Spirit Bomb isnt stronger from stronger fighters though. It isnt their fighting energy. Its "Healthy energy" or "Positive energy" every creature only has so much.

[Boo Machine]

Even if you think the technique is okay...there were like 20 people on Earth. It shouldnt have been powerful enough.

I usually equate the Spirit sword to the likes of the Spirit Bomb that took out Kid buu, which has the opposite issue. Maybe technically the Spirit sword shouldn't be strong enough to beat Zamasu, kind of like there is no way the Goku needed all of the earth's energy to beat Kid Buu, when the energy of his friends should have technically been more than enough.

But in both cases it wasn't about the power, it was about what it represented. Symbolism and all that. It makes no sense when you apply math to it, but thematically it works. Which is why a lot of people are Ok with it even despite knowing that it's a rush job that came out of nowhere.

The Spirit Bomb isnt stronger from stronger fighters though. It isnt their fighting energy. Its "Healthy energy" or "Positive energy" every creature only has so much.

That's cool. I still stand by it being Symbolism and it working thematically. I don't think Healthy positive energy has a hard number to it either.

[GodKaio-Ken]

I usually equate the Spirit sword to the likes of the Spirit Bomb that took out Kid buu, which has the opposite issue. Maybe technically the Spirit sword shouldn't be strong enough to beat Zamasu, kind of like there is no way the Goku needed all of the earth's energy to beat Kid Buu, when the energy of his friends should have technically been more than enough.

But in both cases it wasn't about the power, it was about what it represented. Symbolism and all that. It makes no sense when you apply math to it, but thematically it works. Which is why a lot of people are Ok with it even despite knowing that it's a rush job that came out of nowhere.

The Spirit Bomb isnt stronger from stronger fighters though. It isnt their fighting energy. Its "Healthy energy" or "Positive energy" every creature only has so much.

That's cool. I still stand by it being Symbolism and it working thematically. I don't think Healthy positive energy has a hard number to it either.

Yeah I dont think it changes your post I was just putting it out there.

Its cool to disagree. I get the symbolism but it was just poorly executed to me.

[Zephyr]

An explanation doesnt make something better if the explanation itself is ridiculous.

Aww c'mon, don't do me like that, guy. You can be bothered to reply and call it ridiculous, but you can't be bothered to elaborate on why? I've taken the time to illustrate why it makes perfect sense within the rules established by the series. Would it kill you to address those in an efffort to add something beyond hot air to your position, and treat this place better than the YouTube comments section or 4chan?

Because he pulled that ability out of his ass for plot convenience.

If that is grounds for disliking a story beat, then Akira Toriyama's Dragon Ball must not be a good read for you. I sincerely cannot fathom why you're here in the first place.

So what the story is trying to tell us is that back when Trunks was on the Sacred World of the Kai's, Shin spent the whole day dancing around him performing the "ritual".

Then because of that ritual Trunks can now suddenly heal people. Yet Trunks is not aware that he can do this meaning Shin danced around him the whole day and never thought to actually tell him what the purpose of all that was. Trunks never thought to ask Shin what there was to gain from any of that.

Trunks now having the ability to heal people was some big secret that required Shin withholding that information from him? Why? It's just an healing ability why wouldn't he be told something so simple?

Right, that would be really dumb. Luckily, the work - once again - says that the dance is for apprenticing. Healing is clearly implied to be one of the benefits of being an apprentice. "Why would he be made an apprentice if not to learn to heal?" Maybe to get stronger? Maybe to be allowed to set foot in the Kaioshin Realm? Would make sense given how apprehensive Kibito was about bringing Gohan along, and them not bothering with it for Gohan makes sense given time being more of the essence there.

And yeah, it would have been Super simple for Shin to drop that little extra bit of information. He made that near-fatal error so often in the Buu arc that our own DBZAOTA482 has long since made it his shtick to rip on him for it. Are you really faulting Toyotaro for writing him consistent with the way Toriyama wrote him? The ends you guys will go to in order to complain about something, holy shit.

I've literally already explained the main bits of this in my previous post. I don't know own why you chose to ignore it outright. And I don't know own why I chose to repeat myself to someone who is clearly not interested in a two way conversation.

As for the teleportation, maybe that's more of a Shinjin trait, rather than a Kaioshin attendant trait? Shin uses it, after all, and he's certainly no longer a Kaioshin apprentice (oh hey, more stuff explained in the work itself!). Or is the idea of some abilities being race-related and others being class-related another heinous offense? Because if so, that's a really rigid and uncreative view on writing you're working with. Again, Dragon Ball doesn't seem like your bag. It brims with a sort of whimsy that suffers a complete lack of appreciation at the heart of these types of complaints.

[OLKv3]

It was a cool moment, but from a writing aspect it annoys me for the same reason others like it, in that it's so Undragon ball like. DB never relied on the cheesy "Power of friendship conquers all" moment that other Shounen uses, and this now ruined that forever. I was still confused and excited when it happened though, since the brief Trunks vs Zamasu battle was cool looking, and the sword itself looks awesome.

[Kanassa]

I usually equate the Spirit sword to the likes of the Spirit Bomb that took out Kid buu, which has the opposite issue. Maybe technically the Spirit sword shouldn't be strong enough to beat Zamasu, kind of like there is no way the Goku needed all of the earth's energy to beat Kid Buu, when the energy of his friends should have technically been more than enough.

Really, the sword wasn't strong enough to beat Zamasu, but it was energy turned into the shape of a blade, making it one hell of a sharp bitch. It wasn't even that strong until Goku and Vegeta offered their energy to the pile. In the end, Trunks was lucky that Zamasu needed to get one last monologue in or he would have been fuuuuucked.

Ii think my real problem with this moment is that anyone thought it would work. HE'S IMMORTAL, WHAT THE FUCK IS SLICING HIM IN HALF GONNA DO!?

[Zephyr]

It was a cool moment, but from a writing aspect it annoys me for the same reason others like it, in that it's so Undragon ball like. DB never relied on the cheesy "Power of friendship conquers all" moment that other Shounen uses, and this now ruined that forever.

I mean, on one hand, Trunks himself is sort of un-DB-like, with how pragmatic he is, and all the jazz about Hope. And on the other hand, it didn't really conquer all, and only served to expedite the disaster, in a fairly DB-esque subversion.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

I think my real problem with this moment is that anyone thought it would work. HE'S IMMORTAL, WHAT THE FUCK IS SLICING HIM IN HALF GONNA DO!?

Reality 101:
Hopeful sentiments > Evil superpowers.

Git logic.

[Kanassa]

I think my real problem with this moment is that anyone thought it would work. HE'S IMMORTAL, WHAT THE FUCK IS SLICING HIM IN HALF GONNA DO!?

Reality 101:
Hopeful sentiments > Evil superpowers.

Git logic.

Actually, isn't the whole point of the Spirit Bomb that it only works on 'EEEEEEEVIL' people? Or was that just in the dub?

[Kanious]

There is a way of getting over the spirit sword if we consider cannon the footage from RoF movie when we had some minutes of Trunks reading a book about a legend, where he knew about Goku's battle with Freeza. Maybe he learned about the genki dama there (on the TV special, we had a retelling of Goku Vs Freeza fight with showed the spirit bomb)

Trunks asspulls are nothing compared to the asspulls of the lame character named Gohan.

[sintzu]

Trunks asspulls are nothing compared to the asspulls of the lame character named Gohan.

Everything Gohan got in the original was explained, with Trunks it comes out of nowhere and everyone acts like it's nothing.

[Bullza]

If that is grounds for disliking a story beat, then Akira Toriyama's Dragon Ball must not be a good read for you. I sincerely cannot fathom why you're here in the first place.

I don't particularly​ have a problem with it. That he pulled that ability out of his ass isn't the problem I have. The problem is that people keep giving the anime shit for doing an ass pull when the manga did the exact same except it was more lame.

That and that it just kept Trunks even more to the sidelines than he had been before.

Healing is clearly implied to be one of the benefits of being an apprentice.

Again not really the problem.

The whole situation was just lousy plot convenience. They do all the fighting, they suffer all the problems and then out just of nowhere

"By the way the Supreme Kai danced around me once but just chose not to me about this really useful ability to be used on the battlefield? What's that? I can now suddenly heal people? And I conveniently have just enough power to restore Goku to full strength but not enough to stop me from being sidelined again right after?"

Shin told them a bunch of things in the Buu saga, he didn't tell them a few things. There's no reason, none in the slightest, to not tell Trunks about that ability.

As for the teleportation, maybe that's more of a Shinjin trait, rather than a Kaioshin attendant trait?

Again more plot convenience in that he gains selective apprentice abilities. Why could the teleportation not be the attendant trait and the teleportation the Shinjin trait? Because that's not convenient.

Trunks just so happens to heal Mai and Gowasu with his healing abilities without realising what he was doing and that's ok, that's in "the work".

But Trunks summons a Spirit Bomb without realising it.....Ass pull! Worst episode ever! Worst main character death ever!

[precita]

Am I the only one who hates the term, "asspull?" Like...it's so annoying to read that word.

[Toonami1998]

First off the saiyans in universe 6 are more evolved then 7 so them turning ssj like that is easily explainable. You only have to be like 300,000 in base form to be strong enough to transform, and them being like an army there protecting whatever from bad guys explains them being strong enough to do it. Second, I enjoyed the FT arc, it had a good ending anime wise, even got me choked up a bit at the ending sequence, If you're a true dbz fan you should of got the feels there also. Anyways, how Trunks was able to summon up a spirit bomb and then proceed to go T100 boss mode against a virtualy undestructable god I don't know? We do know Zamasu was weakened at the end losing his aura of protection and Trunks was just chilling back, maybe he figured out a way to gather energy faster while training to fight dabura and babidi? I would consider it a new technique for his new form If anything..

[GodKaio-Ken]

An explanation doesnt make something better if the explanation itself is ridiculous.

Aww c'mon, don't do me like that, guy. You can be bothered to reply and call it ridiculous, but you can't be bothered to elaborate on why? I've taken the time to illustrate why it makes perfect sense within the rules established by the series. Would it kill you to address those in an efffort to add something beyond hot air to your position, and treat this place better than the YouTube comments section or 4chan?

Because he pulled that ability out of his ass for plot convenience.

If that is grounds for disliking a story beat, then Akira Toriyama's Dragon Ball must not be a good read for you. I sincerely cannot fathom why you're here in the first place.

So what the story is trying to tell us is that back when Trunks was on the Sacred World of the Kai's, Shin spent the whole day dancing around him performing the "ritual".

Then because of that ritual Trunks can now suddenly heal people. Yet Trunks is not aware that he can do this meaning Shin danced around him the whole day and never thought to actually tell him what the purpose of all that was. Trunks never thought to ask Shin what there was to gain from any of that.

Trunks now having the ability to heal people was some big secret that required Shin withholding that information from him? Why? It's just an healing ability why wouldn't he be told something so simple?

Right, that would be really dumb. Luckily, the work - once again - says that the dance is for apprenticing. Healing is clearly implied to be one of the benefits of being an apprentice. "Why would he be made an apprentice if not to learn to heal?" Maybe to get stronger? Maybe to be allowed to set foot in the Kaioshin Realm? Would make sense given how apprehensive Kibito was about bringing Gohan along, and them not bothering with it for Gohan makes sense given time being more of the essence there.

And yeah, it would have been Super simple for Shin to drop that little extra bit of information. He made that near-fatal error so often in the Buu arc that our own DBZAOTA482 has long since made it his shtick to rip on him for it. Are you really faulting Toyotaro for writing him consistent with the way Toriyama wrote him? The ends you guys will go to in order to complain about something, holy shit.

I've literally already explained the main bits of this in my previous post. I don't know own why you chose to ignore it outright. And I don't know own why I chose to repeat myself to someone who is clearly not interested in a two way conversation.

As for the teleportation, maybe that's more of a Shinjin trait, rather than a Kaioshin attendant trait? Shin uses it, after all, and he's certainly no longer a Kaioshin apprentice (oh hey, more stuff explained in the work itself!). Or is the idea of some abilities being race-related and others being class-related another heinous offense? Because if so, that's a really rigid and uncreative view on writing you're working with. Again, Dragon Ball doesn't seem like your bag. It brims with a sort of whimsy that suffers a complete lack of appreciation at the heart of these types of complaints.

I've explained 1000x why it doesnt make sense. Your entire argument is that its okay because it is explained. My point is simply that the explanation itself is stupid.