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You can not see Freeza exponentially increasing his power with training based on the below information?how can he go from weaker than ssj1 to god tier in 3 months by training with fodder ? then he's currently equal to Goku by "Mental training" ?
17 fought ssb Goku first before Gohan, also 17 had more time to train than Gohan did, since when are Tien or Piccolo for that matter who had to fuse with Kami to even match an untrained 17 have the same potential as 17 does ? 17 is enhanced on a cellular level, he's not human or a namakian, he doesn't get tired and has unlimited stamina and energy, sorry i trust Toriyama saying that 17 has an enormous potential more than random people downplaying him.Lionel wrote:How can #17 equal Gohan, according to Toshio, when his training standards were likely even worse than the humans'? I mean if he's capable of improving himself by such an abhorrent amount then why couldn't, say, Tenshinhan surpass the Base Saiyans when he's been arduously pushing his limits in the extremities of the planet for years now alongside Chaozu? Or what about Piccolo's presumed inferiority to the Base Saiyans despite having trained with Gohan earnestly throughout the intermission period between the exhibition matches and the Tournament of Power's commencement?
Freeza has a more believable premise for growing so absurdly as he at least has the condition of never having trained before and possessing so much power naturally. Gohan's pinnacle untrained boost at the beginning of Z saw him increasing his power by a thousand times what it was originally. Freeza expanding upon that concept is somehow more logical than #17 miraculously rivaling a fighter who was capable of handling themselves against SSJB.
It's actually Toriyama's idea lol for 17 dunno about Gohan.The gr wrote:I still hated that 17 and gohan, played leapfrog because is insulting and is unnecessary in the narrative,I'm betting this is not an AT idea like gohan role in ft saga and rage trunks
Also someone who trained for 3 months deserves it more than the one who trained for years ? yeah ok ! not to mention that the latter was already much stronger than the former.The gr wrote:I still hated that 17 and gohan, played leapfrog because is insulting and is unnecessary in the narrative,I'm betting this is not an AT idea like gohan role in ft saga and rage trunksEven Freeza power up is silly as well but I take because he deserve it
I could see hes relevant in the outline but god tier,I dont know is sounds like rage trunks,lets just wait for the other version of dbs,it might give us hints whether powering up #17 is an AT ideaLapislettuce wrote:It's actually Toriyama's idea lol for 17 dunno about Gohan.The gr wrote:I still hated that 17 and gohan, played leapfrog because is insulting and is unnecessary in the narrative,I'm betting this is not an AT idea like gohan role in ft saga and rage trunks
actually is 4 months,is silly he powered up to ridiculous heights but he deserve it because hes the most iconic dbz villain,I will give this trough. #17 power up is more beliavble than Freeza but I dont think he deserve it,would have prefer if he was ss2 tierLapislettuce wrote:Also someone who trained for 3 months deserves it more than the one who trained for years ? yeah ok ! not to mention that the latter was already much stronger than the former.
Just because he's an "iconic" level doesn't mean he deserves it, someone who works harder for their power deserves it more than the one who didn't work as much it's simple logic and again 17 started out stronger than Frieza, and it's pretty much confirmed that it was Toriyama's idea since if you remember the interview months ago the producer said that they had Toriyama's permission and he's the one who told them to do so.The gr wrote:I could see hes relevant in the outline but god tier,I dont know is sounds like rage trunks,lets just wait for the other version of dbs,it might give us hints whether powering up #17 is an AT ideaLapislettuce wrote:It's actually Toriyama's idea lol for 17 dunno about Gohan.The gr wrote:I still hated that 17 and gohan, played leapfrog because is insulting and is unnecessary in the narrative,I'm betting this is not an AT idea like gohan role in ft saga and rage trunksactually is 4 months,is silly he powered up to ridiculous heights but he deserve it because hes the most iconic dbz villain,I will give this trough. #17 power up is more beliavble than Freeza but I dont think he deserve it,would have prefer if he was ss2 tierLapislettuce wrote:Also someone who trained for 3 months deserves it more than the one who trained for years ? yeah ok ! not to mention that the latter was already much stronger than the former.
Ok first you CAN NOT compare 17 to 18, 17 was always the power focused one and he cared about being strong and he enjoyed it like Vegeta and it's pretty obvious that 17 must have been training harder than 18 was considering we barely see any training from 18, also 17 would have survived the buu attack since even Tien did, there's no debate about that.Lionel wrote:Tenshinhan and Piccolo both have already surpassed mortal expectations by increasing their strength to levels that exceed some of the lower gods. Plateaus and barriers exist for the characters to overcome them. If this cellular enhancement exists for #17 then the same should apply to #18. Three years had elapsed between the end of the Cell Games and her marrying Krillin. With how inflated the power scaling has become, should it not stand to reason that any progress #18 made in this time would have seen her skyrocketing past all of the Buu arc Saiyans? Why have the kids learn fusion when the Z-fighters can offer the RoSaT to #18 for two days? The fact #17 was alleged to have not survived Super Buu's human extermination attack also seems peculiar in light of this new information. Seven years is provided for him to increase his power yet he can't avoid an attack which Tenshinhan and Chaozu were able to survive? Are we to believe he acquired all of his new power during the six year intermission between the Buu arc and now?
Could we also theorise that Tao might have enhanced cells as well? The organic portions of his body must have been enhanced in order to compensate for his growth in strength and speed. If they didn't then what would be preventing any would-be threats to his life from attempting to attack the organic parts?
17 always had great potential both him and his sister were made specifically to be stronger and superior than saiyans, what's wrong with Toriyama regretting not using 17 as much as he wanted and wanting to explore more of him now ? it's his own show, his own ideas, respect his vision. not to mention we don't even know how 17 trained yet but his power boost makes more sense than both Gohan and Frieza hence the results of the poll.Lionel wrote:#18 must have trained in some capacity to demonstrate knowledge of the Kienzan and how to use it during her fight against Goten and Trunks. Besides that, even if her mentality isn't fixated on recreational growth purely for her own self-satisfaction, why would she neglect to build herself up when faced with the prospect of her family being murdered by Buu? She could have revealed the truth about her cellular enhancement to the Z-fighters as they were in hiding. Better yet, locate #17 and have the twin siblings train together in the RoSaT. Buu wouldn't stand a chance when confronted by two infinitely energised warriors with a growth rate superior anyone's sans Freeza; this scenario doesn't pan out, though.
On the matter of the humanity extermination attack, the Daizenshuu states how Tenshinhan, Chaozu, Mr Satan and Bee were the only ones to survive it. #17 isn't mentioned anywhere -- neither is Tao for that matter, despite being a cyborg as well, albeit he was presumably created by a different scientific engineer.
#17's "prodigy" status seems to be artificially born. We would have otherwise heard something about him prior to the Cell arc. I mean a competitive egocentric delinquent who seems to bask in fighting with others? #17 should have been a prime candidate for the later tournaments in the original Dragon Ball. At the very least, we could have seen a younger iteration of him competing in the preliminaries. Sadly, he's nowhere to be found -- an untapped reservoir of potential, just like Yajirobe, I suppose.
I respect Toriyama's word on the subject, but I'm not going to pretend that there's a solid foundational basis or implicative evidence to indicate this new status of #17's existed before the recent arc.
Lapislettuce wrote:Honestly speaking which one of these 3 people had the most reasonable power boost ? (not counting Caulifla and Kale so don't bring them up please.), this is not me being biased but i believe 17's power up made the most sense considering 17 was already stronger than SSJ1 years ago and they mentioned he's been training for years it makes sense.
Gohan i can't say it makes sense considering he just got back his buu saga powers then became god tier the next episode i wish it was handled better.
Frieza i find is the most ridiculous yet no one cares, how can he go from weaker than ssj1 to god tier in 3 months by training with fodder ? then he's currently equal to Goku by "Mental training" ?
Anyway made a poll on G+ and here are the results.
You think i rigged the results ? xD i'm not biased just telling how it is, feel free to disagree.TheOne wrote:Lapislettuce wrote:Honestly speaking which one of these 3 people had the most reasonable power boost ? (not counting Caulifla and Kale so don't bring them up please.), this is not me being biased but i believe 17's power up made the most sense considering 17 was already stronger than SSJ1 years ago and they mentioned he's been training for years it makes sense.
Gohan i can't say it makes sense considering he just got back his buu saga powers then became god tier the next episode i wish it was handled better.
Frieza i find is the most ridiculous yet no one cares, how can he go from weaker than ssj1 to god tier in 3 months by training with fodder ? then he's currently equal to Goku by "Mental training" ?
Anyway made a poll on G+ and here are the results.
It's kinda hard to take any post you make seriously seeing as how you are blatantly biased to anyone not Android 17.
So who cares about what happened in Buu saga ? you expect 17 to come out of no where and one shot Buu ? he was irrelevant like all the other supporting cast, move on, currently he's relevant and Toriyama decided to make him this powerful, how he got this strong is still a mystery but i can buy anything he did more than what Frieza and Gohan did to get this strong, 17 started out stronger than both of them.Lionel wrote:It's Toriyama's vision, but it doesn't coincide with the past events of the original manga. #17 should have been well on his way to surpassing everyone at the time of the Buu arc, yet he's nowhere to be found as Babidi is propagandising his intentions to the world. His assistance would have been of much use against Buu. The Daizenshuu's entry for Buu's attack also suggests he was casually murdered by one of the projectiles with no apparent need to relay why this was so to the viewer. Even if he's not interested in safeguarding the world, why would he allow himself to be killed if he's been training behind the scenes so rigorously? Furthermore, when speaking of the three "masters", Elder Kaioshin didn't cite #17 at all. He was classified in the same category as all of the non-adult Saiyans.
Maybe Toriyama should be consulted on what his prospective intentions for #17 may have been at the time of the original manga's serialisation. It must not have been too important since #17 barely received a cameo panel in the Buu arc alongside Jingle Village and Upa's tribe.
That's how you decide to look at things, doesn't mean it's a fact, in my opinion wether 17 is as strong as he is due to Gero's enhancement is irrelevant, the saiyans are FODDER without transformations too so ? anyway i'll take an enhanced human who can't get tired, doesn't need to sleep nor eat, has unlimited energy/stamina and his untrained version was much stronger than a super saiyan training for over a decade to obtain this power over a saiyan who jumped from buu saga tier to above current ssj2 Goku in 2 hours, or an alien who jumped from being less than fodder to god tier by training with even more fodders for 3 months.Lionel wrote:I expect #17 to not be killed when an ominous barrage of "fireworks" is hurtling towards him from the heavens. Those with the strength to boast effectiveness would have all been used unless some unorthodox circumstances were prohibiting them from contributing like Buu's slumber in the recent arcs.
Gohan's power has an explanatory reference point and precedence. He essentially multiplied his power by over a thousand at the beginning of Z. Everything about his character has alluded to a deeper rooted potential nestled under the surface of his meekish personality. Some time later in the Buu arc, Goku stated that Gohan was capable of defeating anyone if he harnessed his potential strength. In light of Super's new additions to the lore, he would likely require God Ki for this truth to still stand, but as said, there's at least some hint of rationality behind Gohan achieving rapid growth in power within such a short time frame. We weren't even aware of these "enhanced cells" of #17's prior to this arc. It was assumed that the infinite energy engine was the sole cause behind the cyborgs' inordinate strength -- i.e a mechanical device with technical limitations in its circuitry and power output.
Freeza? Little foundation exists as we aren't made aware of his personal background. If nothing else, his power was at least his own and not artificially obtained through cybernetic implants (prior to Super's "revelation"). #17 was likely nothing more than a glorified mischief maker prior to Gero's experimentations.
