Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[JulianStyles]

If Tenshinhan was considered an earthling, Krilin would be stronger than him, because Toriyama established Krilin was the strongest one. If is not, then we don't know who is stronger.

Akira has established Tien as the strongest one. In official PLS before Namek. And Android-present Tien has completely out done Krillin. Or are we polarized by Toeis filler of Krillin going into the woods then his sparing match with a un expecting weaker Gohan and Goku showing off? Just for him to be first eliminated. Akiras outline is the tournament not the recruitment. Next months manga should clarify this.

Pre Namek sure, but post Namek not, I mean he didn't establish it. If his statement about the strongest earthling does not include Ten, then the debate is open, but there's nothing confirmed. I would go with Ten, because he trained with Kaio quite long and never stopped after that, but that's just my opinion. Being eliminated first doesn't mean anything.

But Tien being more impactful in all arcs since Namek does mean something. I heard the same thing in ROF. When Krillin struggled and needed to be saved by Gohan but Tien needed no help and never got touched. All I heard was it was Freeza's soilders it means nothing. If Tien get 2 eliminations and last longer. Then its another arc Tien was more impactful in.

[Basako]

But Tien being more impactful in all arcs since Namek does mean something. I heard the same thing in ROF. When Krillin struggled and needed to be saved by Gohan but Tien needed no help and never got touched. All I heard was it was Freeza's soilders it means nothing. If Tien get 2 eliminations and last longer. Then its another arc Tien was more impactful in.

But any of that confirm anything. RoF Krilin was him being insecure, it was a bit BS writing in my opinion, just to add drama. When he recovered his confidence, he fought well.

I don't think we'll get definitive answers and I'm fine with that, they are probably quite even.

[JulianStyles]

But Tien being more impactful in all arcs since Namek does mean something. I heard the same thing in ROF. When Krillin struggled and needed to be saved by Gohan but Tien needed no help and never got touched. All I heard was it was Freeza's soilders it means nothing. If Tien get 2 eliminations and last longer. Then its another arc Tien was more impactful in.

But any of that confirm anything. RoF Krilin was him being insecure, it was a bit BS writing in my opinion, just to add drama. When he recovered his confidence, he fought well.

I don't think we'll get definitive answers and I'm fine with that, they are probably quite even.

I was talking ROF movie. But the series didnt bode well either for Krillin as Tenshinhan needed to save him in that telling. Granted once he over came his fear the soilders were no match for him. But I believe Akira had more to do with the movie then Akira moved on to writing the rest of super while the Anime retold BOG and ROF.

[Marlowe89]

Well, it's still Toshio's opinion and he does not say who is stronger, but looks like he is not entirely defining Tenshinhan as earthling and relates this to Krilin being the stronger one.

That was the impression I got as well. His phrasing made it sound like Tien wasn't qualified as an Earthling and so therefore Krillin was the strongest Earthling, which could very well imply that he thought Tien was possibly the stronger of the two.

[Animelover5487]

DBS writer Toshio just confirmed this

That writer has such abysmal grammar, I honestly can't take his opinion seriously.

[Bullza]

The Dragon Ball wiki is trying to say that this is supposed to be Saiyan Beyond God because of the aura.



But it just seems like the same generic aura that many characters have also had when they power up. Was there anything said in the chapter itself? Just seems like an assumption to me, not even sure it makes any sense seeing as they transform into Super Saiyan God.

[JulianStyles]

DBS writer Toshio just confirmed this

That writer has such abysmal grammar, I honestly can't take his opinion seriously.

Lol you do know english is not his first language. And most likely its google translate that allows him to see foreign tweets and he replies in Japanese and google translates his writing.

[LowRyder2005]

The Dragon Ball wiki is trying to say that this is supposed to be Saiyan Beyond God because of the aura.



But it just seems like the same generic aura that many characters have also had when they power up. Was there anything said in the chapter itself? Just seems like an assumption to me, not even sure it makes any sense seeing as they transform into Super Saiyan God.

Technically I don't have a clear confirmation, but I'd safely wager with near certainty that nothing was said about "Saiyan Beyond Gods" - because it's not like the term has made any appearance in the manga, and if any character did say this, it'd be reported verbatim along the image in the text of the article.
On that note, the Dragon Ball wikia is a a notorious for being a place where many, many users actively try to add their own touch of confirmation bias' in many articles, edits which go undetected or remain untouched; I wouldn't give it any weight.

I've also read the "Saiyan Beyond God" page and, more than being informative, it sounded like a composite copypasta of the many differing theories read in this thread.

[ChiefWamsutta]

DBS writer Toshio just confirmed this

That writer has such abysmal grammar, I honestly can't take his opinion seriously.

That is absolutely uncalled for. Why you would go out of your way to insult someone trying to learn a second language is beyond me.

The Dragon Ball wiki is trying to say that this is supposed to be Saiyan Beyond God because of the aura.



But it just seems like the same generic aura that many characters have also had when they power up. Was there anything said in the chapter itself? Just seems like an assumption to me, not even sure it makes any sense seeing as they transform into Super Saiyan God.

Technically I don't have a clear confirmation, but I'd safely wager with near certainty that nothing was said about "Saiyan Beyond Gods" - because it's not like the term has made any appearance in the manga, and if any character did say this, it'd be reported verbatim along the image in the text of the article.
On that note, the Dragon Ball wikia is a a notorious for being a place where many, many users actively try to add their own touch of confirmation bias' in many articles, edits which go undetected or remain untouched; I wouldn't give it any weight.

I've also read the "Saiyan Beyond God" page and, more than being informative, it sounded like a composite copypasta of the many differing theories read in this thread.

I have not read the most recent chapter of the manga, but I could see the aura being that of SBG. However, it does not seem like it was stated anywhere. The SBG probably was not used since Copy-Vegeta; in the manga it was not used at all.

Okay, so this is what I believe were the instances of using Saiyan Beyond God.

Preface #1: Super Saiyan God Goku vs. Beerus.
Preface #2: Super Saiyan God Radiance Goku (SS1 in Outer Space) vs. Beerus.

Instance #1: SBG Goku vs. Beerus (Final Punch during Sphere of Destruction attack).
Instance #2: SBG Goku vs. SBG Vegeta (Training with Whis).
Instance #3: SBG Goku vs. RoF Final Form Frieza.
Instance #4: SBG Goku vs. SBG Vegeta (Angry about taking too long fighting Frieza).
Instance #5: SBG Goku vs. Hit (Testing out his Tokitobashi).
Instance #6: SBG Goku vs. Monaka-Beerus.
Instance #7: SBG Copy-Vegeta vs. SS3 Gotenks.
Instance #8: SBG Copy-Vegeta vs. SBG Goku.
Instance #9: SBG Goku Black (Restricted Power) vs. Future Trunks.
Instance #10: SBG Goku Black (Restricted Power) vs. SS2 Goku.
Instance #11: SBG Goku Black (Full Power) vs. SSB Vegeta.
Instance #12: SBG Vegito (Right before he goes SSB).
Instance #13: SBG Goku vs. Slim Buu.
Instance #14: SBG Goku vs. Piccolo (Super Explosive Wave).
Instance #15: SBG Goku vs. Golden Frieza (The one-punch fight after defeating the U9 assassins).

In all honesty, every instance except for #5, #13, #14 could definitely work.

[Marlowe89]

Viz's translation of the latest chapter just released, and they were definitely just powering up in their normal base forms. Goku said he didn't even have enough strength left to go Super Saiyan.

[dragon boss z]

DBS writer Toshio just confirmed this

That writer has such abysmal grammar, I honestly can't take his opinion seriously.

And how good is your Japanese? If you can't speak fluent Japanese does that mean people shouldn't take you seriously?

[Bullza]

So this came up on another site and I wanted to bring it up and see if we can make sense of it.

According to the Dragon Ball Wiki, there's Elder Kai Unlocked Gohan and then there's Potential Unleashed Gohan, two different forms apparently both of which they are calling Ultimate Gohan.

Back during the Zen Exhibition Tournament there was this promotional image

[spoiler][/spoiler]

With this translation

[spoiler][/spoiler]

So that would be this supposed Elder Kai Unlocked Kai who is capable of transforming into a Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2 and who in Base form is stronger than Piccolo.

And then he trained with Piccolo and reachieved his Potential Unleashed form, this

[spoiler][/spoiler]

What do we make of this? It'd mean Gohan was far stronger than back in the Buu saga which does make sense with a few things but he'd be much weaker than when he fought Super Buu until recently.

[LowRyder2005]

*sigh*... This only convinces me further that someone with something remotely akin to a sense of journalistic integrity would really need to scrub all that self-indulgent mumbo-jumbo away from the wikia.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Although I lean more towards the idea that Gohan has gotten his base form up to snuff with the likes of Goku, Piccolo, Final Form Freeza, etc., another interpretation I had watching the episode where he sparred with his father was that he learned to go "Ultimate" in base form, then went Ultimate off of that.

He seems to power up quite like when he re-unlocked his Ultimate potential but didn't display the bang of the state. Alongside those scans and the accompanying translation, one could make the argument that Gohan has tapped into his Ultimate power in base form, and can take it further for a "full-power" Ultimate on top of such a power-up that can rival a god form like SSB.

Again, I lean more towards the first conclusion I came to in the first paragraph, but the second conclusion had also crossed my time at the time of initial watching.

[Bullza]

Well there was that scene in the Battle of Gods saga when Base Gohan, no bang, attacks Beerus and loses immediately and then Piccolo displays shock that he was beaten so easily even after he'd seen Beerus beat everyone else like Buu.

Then it definitely did seem like he was stronger than Piccolo with the weights. Then we see him about equal with Piccolo without the weights.

So he does like he should be much stronger than he was during the Buu saga. I think the wikia is trying to say that he's that strong because of the the Elder Kai unlocking his power but then that's supposed to be something separate from the Gohan with the bang who is even stronger.

I have never heard of them being two different things before and I do think it's mostly nonsense but it is true that the promotion said that the Gohan who fought Lavender was Ultimate Gohan and that's obviously not the same as the Ultimate Gohan who later fought Goku.

[avasatu]

Can someone make a comprehensive list of all instances where a Saiyan must be/is commonly thought to be using SBG? Time to debunk them all and stop talking in circles. We're saying the same stuff over and over

Haha, I will give this a go. Okay, so this is what I believe were the instances of using Saiyan Beyond God.

Preface #1: Super Saiyan God Goku vs. Beerus.
Preface #2: Super Saiyan God Radiance Goku (SS1 in Outer Space) vs. Beerus.

Instance #1: SBG Goku vs. Beerus (Final Punch during Sphere of Destruction attack).
Instance #2: SBG Goku vs. SBG Vegeta (Training with Whis).
Instance #3: SBG Goku vs. RoF Final Form Frieza.
Instance #4: SBG Goku vs. SBG Vegeta (Angry about taking too long fighting Frieza).
Instance #5: SBG Goku vs. Hit (Testing out his Tokitobashi).
Instance #6: SBG Goku vs. Monaka-Beerus.
Instance #7: SBG Copy-Vegeta vs. SS3 Gotenks.
Instance #8: SBG Copy-Vegeta vs. SBG Goku.
Instance #9: SBG Goku Black (Restricted Power) vs. Future Trunks.
Instance #10: SBG Goku Black (Restricted Power) vs. SS2 Goku.
Instance #11: SBG Goku Black (Full Power) vs. SSB Vegeta.
Instance #12: SBG Goku vs. Slim Buu.
Instance #13: SBG Goku vs. Golden Frieza (The one-punch fight after defeating the U9 assassins).

Let's assume that while Goku integrated the godly spark into his being, he was not able to access it too far past his battle with Beerus. We can even go full headcanon mode and assume Goku kept some of his power, but not all of it. This explains why Vegeta and Goku could be seen to be equals upon Goku arriving on Beerus' planet after Vegeta having trained 6 months. This is all effectively a retcon with plot support which is more than reasonable. If you like, just imagine a retcon straight out, but I prefer one caused by plot.

In doing all of this, we easily remove Preface 1 and 2, and Instance 1 from consideration. I'm going to make the assumption that base Goku was stronger than Buu arc Ultimate Gohan in his fight with Frieza in RoF, and has steadily gotten stronger. Tagoma was about as strong as Gohan when he was at his best, which is referring to when he had access to his Ultimate form and a fully trained mind and body and NOT necessarily to when he was strongest. As we know, his potential is always increasing. What is Ultimate Gohan? Just Gohan filling in all the potential he has, and his base stays relative to this. Thus, despite Gohan being untrained, out of shape, and devoid of all fighting sense, he has grown much stronger (SS1 two shotting Tagoma), but still isn't at his best technically, mentally, or as his skills relate to his ability to transform to his highest states. Since Vegeta effortlessly one shots the improved Tagoma, we conclude that the bases of Vegeta and Goku are >> Ultimate Gohan from Buu arc, but not anywhere near god levels. They've been training for a long freakin' time with Whis at this point, and we don't even know how strong they were at the beginning of Super. This all strikes me as more than reasonable.

Instance 2: SBG not required. Just a much stronger base.
Instance 3: Again, not required given my discussion above.
Instance 4: Not required, for the same reasons.
Instance 5: This one is trickier. Hit was most certainly powered down and hitting with "soft" hits during this portion of the fight, and Hit's strength is in his technique and the precision of his blows, rather than his pure power output. It's more than reasonable to assume Hit was, in effort to not kill Goku to break the rules, simply wearing down Goku. He already knew roughly what his base form was capable of, and adjusted his power accordingly. The way he talks to Goku supports this. Hit suggests Goku should simply give up the fight and believes him to be naive.

Instance 6: Nothing says Beerus feels the need to protray Monaka as a god level fighter, just a strong one. He could have been fighting in such a way to give the impression that Monaka is very strong, certainly beyond Goku, but again nowhere near god levels. All Beerus had to do here was be stronger than base Goku, not be godly.
Instance 7: My discussion in the first paragraph again takes care of this.
Instance 8: Same
Instance 11: Here is where things get interesting. My theory, which I am slowly getting people to support elsewhere, is that since Zamasu is a GOD, PRODIGY, and inhabits a FUTURE Goku, between his first fight with SS2 Goku and his fight with SSB Vegeta, he discovers that FUTURE Goku has the ability to utilize god ki in his base, and again, since this is a future Goku and Zamasu is a prodigy (with god ki himself, no less), he is in fact stronger than SSB Vegeta, or at least equal. It makes perfect sense. In essence, Black HAS an SBG form UNLIKE the present Saiyans, and so his SSRose is merely a ~x50 multiplier off of his base (or whatever the multiplier from god base to SSB would be). The fact that his hair color is different is a clue hinting toward the fact that SSRose is what happens when a Saiyan with actual, home-grown god ki goes SS. Another hint at all this is that Goku is likely going to soon be able to do some resembling utilizing god ki in his base in this upcoming tournament. That's what the poster seems to imply.
Instance 9-10: This is just a future Goku, who could have just gotten ~100x stronger. Maybe Goku goes through a lot between the present day and the time frame in which Zamasu steals his body (in fact, we KNOW he has).
Instance 12: Explained already.
Instance 13: Goku goes SSB to punch Frieza. I don't know how he appears to match his speed, though. One theory is that Frieza's speed simply didn't increase from his mental training, just his power and stamina. Another more likely theory is that it doesn't matter, because nothing came of it. All that really mattered in that scene was Goku going SSB to punch out Frieza.

To explain the hakai ball: I just assume that it takes exponentially more energy to compress such a ball as it shrinks. That is consistent with matter and energy compression in real life, and explains why Goku could survive in the ball and even slightly move it, yet be FAR below TG Frieza.

Feel free to critique, but maybe it's best to now list instances where Goku's base couldn't be >> Ultimate Gohan Buu arc level. I have yet to find one I couldn't debunk, but I haven't actually watched older episodes in a long while.

[Marlowe89]

This attempt to try and pry apart an "Elder Kai Unlocked" form and a "Potential Unleashed" form for Gohan just sounds like the kind of pointless semantics you'd usually see the DB Wiki parroting. It's all meaningless, really, because regardless of whether Gohan had some of his Ultimate power prior to his recent training with Piccolo he still wouldn't have been as strong as he was against Super Buu until reobtaining his "bang" form. That was confirmed in the episode itself.

Additionally, we can conclude from both of Gohan's sparring matches with Goku that his base shouldn't be drastically stronger than it was prior to the training. The purpose of the training was to re-unlock his Ultimate/"Potential Unleashed"/whatever state, which just makes his maximum strength much higher.

[Bullza]

Well he wouldn't be as strong as he was when he fought Super Buu, so he would be considerably weaker than in Base form but if he were on par with Piccolo (as of Universe 6) then with Goku and Vegeta being on par with him you could say that they weren't at Buu levels which narrows the range down considerably.

Because at the same time it was implied that Base Future Trunks was stronger than Super Saiyan Kid Trunks so it would sorta fit with him being about on par with the others.

Maybe it also has something to do with Gohan saying he couldn't maintain his full power for long as a Super Saiyan too.

It's odd that they referred to Gohan as being Ultimate Gohan when he fought Lavender and then just a few episodes later he achieved what we all know as Ultimate Gohan.

[DBZ Macky]

I don't think that scan says anything about the lavenda fight. Rather, it tells us that the Gohan at the Tournament of Power is super serious and now can also tap into his Ultimate strength.

[LowRyder2005]

Well he wouldn't be as strong as he was when he fought Super Buu, so he would be considerably weaker than in Base form but if he were on par with Piccolo (as of Universe 6) then with Goku and Vegeta being on par with him you could say that they weren't at Buu levels which narrows the range down considerably.

Because at the same time it was implied that Base Future Trunks was stronger than Super Saiyan Kid Trunks so it would sorta fit with him being about on par with the others.

Maybe it also has something to do with Gohan saying he couldn't maintain his full power for long as a Super Saiyan too.

It's odd that they referred to Gohan as being Ultimate Gohan when he fought Lavender and then just a few episodes later he achieved what we all know as Ultimate Gohan.

The crux of the matter is that they didn't say he was Ultimate during the fight with Lavenda, just that they had obtained a scan of "Ultimate Gohan" in an article that was labeled as a preview of the tournament. Okay, I understand what you're getting at: "bangless Gohan = Gohan that fought Lavenda".

However - if you look at this from a different angle, the problem is most likely not within text, but within the picture. Common sense would dictate it's almost surely a blatant case of whoever was in charge of the article getting confused over their drafts: both base Gohan and Ultimate Gohan in Super looked even more alike than ever before. The editor probably received a bunch of production notes, knew Gohan was getting his "Ultimate form" back, saw Gohan with the iconic gi and (most importantly) the stern face and not-so-unreasonably concluded that it was Ultimate Gohan.

Well, there's also the slight possibility Gohan would have showed the bang to distinguish him from his normal form could have also been introduced only afterwards - in which case we'd be talking about an outdated design that was reflective of what Ultimate Gohan would have looked at the time. Someone would need to look more into the dates to make a fair estimation of whatever this is likely or not, though.