Could they remove film grain without ruining things?

[jjgp1112]

Could they take the original cel photography for DBZ and play it at 65 mm film or something to get rid of grain without tampering with anything?

[caejones]

Maybe I'm missing something, but... is that what the Dragon-boxes are?

[Captain Awesome]

Maybe I'm missing something, but... is that what the Dragon-boxes are?

The Dragonboxes have grain, just substantially less.

I don't see what the problem is, people keep wanting a show that started it's run in 1989 to look like it was animated using the latest digital photography techniques.

Besides, Funimation didn't even get rid of all the grain, it was still there in the season sets.

[VegettoEX]

Could they take the original cel photography for DBZ and play it at 65 mm film or something to get rid of grain without tampering with anything?

If they want to pay me several hundreds of dollars for the cels we own... not mention the thousands of other people across the world who own cels... and magically recreate the kagillion that have been destroyed or lost... so they can go back and remaster the show with all new photography of the original cels, I say go for it.

[jjgp1112]

Okay, so they can't get the cels. But is it possible to convert the film prints to a different type of film that has no grain?

[Castor Troy]

Okay, so they can't get the cels. But is it possible to convert the film prints to a different type of film that has no grain?

Sure, they can wash them with soap.

[Li'l Lemmy]

Okay, so they can't get the cels. But is it possible to convert the film prints to a different type of film that has no grain?

I dunno 'bout that. If it were that easy, you'd have shows far older than DragonBall being released all the time without grain to look brand new.

Grain or no grain, what FUNimation has now for masters are irreversibly fucked and can no longer be altered (except possibly to make them look worse still), and the only way they'll have another crack at this is to purchase better ones from Toei.

Otherwise, what you see is what you get . . . and likely for several years to come.

Sure, they can wash them with soap.

Or this. This here is hilarious.


~Da Lemmy

[Hironobu Timex]

Grain or no grain, what FUNimation has now for masters are irreversibly fucked and can no longer be altered (except possibly to make them look worse still), and the only way they'll have another crack at this is to purchase better ones from Toei.

~Da Lemmy

WAIT, HOLD ON. Are you saying FUNimation's original 4:3 footage DOESN'T EVEN EXIST ANYMORE? I know that's not what they plan to release right now, but you're saying it's all gone?

[SatoSky]

I'm assuming that FUNimation still owns those film masters, and they are still 4:3. So a future release with the OAR is still possible. They just have to an all new telcine of that film.

[kyosuke koizumi]

I love film grain! I hate restorations!!!

[SatoSky]

Same here. Don't ask me why but the more grain in the footage, the more I like it.

[DBW]

Okay, so they can't get the cels. But is it possible to convert the film prints to a different type of film that has no grain?

I think you're a little confused, man. Copying the film to another source doesn't make the grain go away. The grain is on the film, but so is the image, so when you transfer the image, everything goes with it (it's not as if the grain is some separate layer or something). Think of it like scanning a photograph; if the original photo contains red-eye, simply scanning it into the computer won't make it go away, you have to edit it yourself. Of course, the problem is, isolated damage like scratches (or red-eye for that matter) are relatively easy to fix, while something like grain which covers the entire image is virtually impossible to remove without compromising the the quality.

WAIT, HOLD ON. Are you saying FUNimation's original 4:3 footage DOESN'T EVEN EXIST ANYMORE? I know that's not what they plan to release right now, but you're saying it's all gone?

They have the 16mm film. Basically, they can create whatever ratio they want (including the original 4:3). The problem is, everytime they do this they have to re-telecine (copy) the entire series to the new ratio, and obviously re-apply all the remastering. This is pretty expensive, and I don't see them doing it every couple years as being very likely.

[jjgp1112]

I read an interesting article on removing film grain. It might be something that won't fuck up the image:

http://www.videoconversionexperts.com/F ... tion_1.htm

And couldn't Funi also make a new master off of the original prints that has no grain (that's what Toei did for Dragon Box: The Movies

[Conan the SSJ]

And couldn't Funi also make a new master off of the original prints that has no grain (that's what Toei did for Dragon Box: The Movies

1) Toei will never in a million years give/sell FUNi or anyone else their original film prints that they derived the Dragonbox material from, and 2) the only way FUNi could truly remove the grain without compromising animation detail is to frame-by-frame comprehensively paint over all instances of it. They don't have the patience or anywhere near the budget desire for that. The grain will always be a natural element of the anime, that's just the way it is, any other way besides what Pony Canyon did will compromise the material. Hell, would you like to see FUNi's Hooters henchman get his hands on the first couple seasons of Buffy The Vampire Slayer? That also was filmed on 16mm film and naturally has grain that's relevant to the material and would need to have a comprehensive frame-by-frame digital painting process to remove it, "smoothing it out" with the automation on as Steve Franko is hired to do and cropping it would completely screw it. As Corey once said, poor Angel's "pretty face" would be merging with the wall.

[EricM]

Of course you can remove grain without damaging any other part of the image. But that requires time and skill. of which Funimation doesn't have.

Time - Why take you time and do it right, when the faster you get them out, the faster you get paid.
Skill - To truly do a good job, you'd pretty much have manually fix frame by frame, instead of running it through some computer software and letting it decide.

[Kendamu]

It's funny that FUNimation can take all kinds of time and money to use in-house guys to digitally paint over nudity, squirting/flying/spurting/moving blood, cleavage, cigarettes, beer, and tears but they couldn't take the time to photoshop out the worst of the damage that could be seen in a 4:3 presentation and call it a day.

[SatoSky]

And couldn't Funi also make a new master off of the original prints that has no grain (that's what Toei did for Dragon Box: The Movies

Dragon Box the Movies has grain. It may not be as prevalent as in other sources, but it's there. Maybe Toei went to the negatives and stamped out a new component master from that? Did anybody definitively figure out what that means? Anyway, as EricM pointed out, Funimation lacks the two things that are needed to pull this off, time and skill.

Hell, would you like to see FUNi's Hooters henchman get his hands on the first couple seasons of Buffy The Vampire Slayer? That also was filmed on 16mm film and naturally has grain that's relevant to the material and would need to have a comprehensive frame-by-frame digital painting process to remove it, "smoothing it out" with the automation on as Steve Franko is hired to do and cropping it would completely screw it. As Corey once said, poor Angel's "pretty face" would be merging with the wall.

Now that would be true hell. And now that you mentioned it, Buffy which was entirely filmed in 4:3, with the exception of Once More With Feeling, was cropped, (just like the DBZ season sets) for the European R2 release of the "Chosen Collection." I wonder why that is? I know there are some Buffy/Angel fans here so I would like to know. Also, do you think that season one of Angel will be cropped to 16:9 to match the other four seasons for the new collectors box? Since it was presented in 4:3 for the initial DVD release, I'm assuming it was filmed that way.

Also, Conan, why is it you who gets me to rant about Angel?

[TripleRach]

And now that you mentioned it, Buffy which was entirely filmed in 4:3, with the exception of Once More With Feeling, was cropped, (just like the DBZ season sets) for the European R2 release of the "Chosen Collection." I wonder why that is? I know there are some Buffy/Angel fans here so I would like to know. Also, do you think that season one of Angel will be cropped to 16:9 to match the other four seasons for the new collectors box? Since it was presented in 4:3 for the initial DVD release, I'm assuming it was filmed that way.

The R2 releases weren't cropped. Seasons 4-7 of Buffy (possibly 3, too), and all of Angel, were filmed with an open matte. But all of Buffy, and the first two seasons of Angel, were entirely directed and framed for 4:3, other than OMWF. So the 16:9 releases just used wider shots from the original prints. (Examples.) If Angel S1 were ever re-released in 16:9, it seems highly unlikely Fox would just crop the 4:3 TV masters instead of going back to the original prints and using the wider shots.

It's basically just the reverse of the way FUNi's released the DBZ movies, which were framed for 16:9, but because they were filmed with an open matte, 4:3 versions were possible without pan and scanning and actually result in more picture. Although I think it's more likely that FUNimation probably just received the 4:3 broadcast or VHS masters of the movies rather than getting film prints and actively choosing a ratio, but who knows with them!

Fufufu, I managed to even be on topic~

[SatoSky]

Ooh... thanks for the info. Since I don't own anything Buffy except for season one I may pick up the R2 Chosen Collection. The wider frame is definitely more pleasing to the eye, not at all awkward like the season sets. Anyway, thanks for the info on that. As far as Angel goes, I'm sure Fox will do it correctly. On the season five DVD's though, there is an extra titled "The Best of Angel", or something to that extent. I think it's Mr. Whedon talking about each season, explaining what their goal was for that year and it showed scenes from season one in a letterboxed widescreen and they looked very awkward. Maybe I'm just used to watching those episodes in 4:3.

Anyway, I've added nothing else to the real discussion, so before I run off into the dark demon infested woods I'll say this:
These little freaks are awesome!

Easily one of my favorite episodes of Buffy.

[jjgp1112]

I read Wikipedia's article on film restoration, and they said something interesting about removing grain without compromising with the look of the show.

Modern, digital film restoration follows the following steps:

Expertly clean the film of dirt and dust.
Repair all film tears with clear polyester tape or splicing cement.
Scan each frame into a digital file.
Restore the film frame by frame by comparing each frame to adjacent frames. This can be done somewhat by computer algorithms with human checking of the result.
Fix frame alignment - Fix jitter and weave - the misalignment of adjacent film frames due to movement of film within the sprockets. This corrects the issue where the holes on each side of a frame are distored over time. This causes frames to slightly be off center.
Fix color and lighting changes - This corrects flickering and slight color changes from one frame to another due to aging of the film.
Restore areas blocked by dirt and dust by using parts of images in other frames.
Restore scratches by using parts of images in other frames.
Enhance frames by reducing film grain noise. Film foreground/background detail about the same size as the film grain or smaller is blurred or lost in making the film. Comparing a frame with adjacent frames allows detail information to be reconstructed since a given small detail may be split between more film grains from one frame to another.

But Funi doesn't have the patience to do that.

So if Pony Canyon wanted to, they could get rid of grain by doing the same thing done for removing scratches. First, they'd have to blur things, and compare it to another frame and use parts of that to restore detail, providing a perfecting clean, grainless picture.