Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Lord Beerus]

SSJ Cabba could hold his own against LSSJ Kale for a little while and SSJ2 Caulifla swatted away a ki blast from LSSJ Kale like it was nothing, so LSSJ Kale being as strong as she was portrayed in this episode makes no sense. Just more proof that Toei will toss logic and consistency aside just to appeal to the lowest common denominator.

Even SS2 Goku managed to deflect and dodge some hits, even if he was clearly being overpowered.

Idk which is worse, LSSJ being SSB Goku level (or higher) or Gohan going from Lavender level to SSB Goku level after training with Piccolo for a few hours.

Cabba was not holding his own against Kale at all. He was ducking and dodging for his life against her assault. And he got some offence, which was basically one punch, she no sold it and then nearly killed Cabba.

Also, Gohan has been training with Piccolo since the end of the Resurrection F arc.

[Marlowe89]

I meant in-universe.

I'd say Vegeta's speculation about it being the original form of Saiyans was a pretty direct in-universe reference, perhaps not to Broly specifically but certainly to his signature transformation.

Idk which is worse, LSSJ being SSB Goku level (or higher) or Gohan going from Lavender level to SSB Goku level after training with Piccolo for a few hours.

If all the speculation about Broly's ki continuously rising while in LSS holds any weight at all, that could be a possible (albeit crazy) explanation.

This is completely assumptive but perhaps when Kale learns to control the form, her power will subside a bit.

[Overlord78]

This is strength thread is counterintuitive, power levels in this show can change like wisp of wind.

The only logical conclusion we can come to is that they are strong as the plot requires. There is far too much bullshit in this show for anything to make sense from a power level perspective.

[Hakaishin Liquir]

Even SS2 Goku managed to deflect and dodge some hits, even if he was clearly being overpowered.

Idk which is worse, LSSJ being SSB Goku level (or higher) or Gohan going from Lavender level to SSB Goku level after training with Piccolo for a few hours.

Cabba was not holding his own against Kale at all. He was ducking and dodging for his life against her assault. And he got some offence, which was basically one punch, she no sold it and then nearly killed Cabba.

Also, Gohan has been training with Piccolo since the end of the Resurrection F arc.

Well SSJ Cabba still performed better against LSSJ Kale than he did against SSB Vegeta. I don't see how Gohan training with Piccolo since RoF is relevant to my post since Gohan at the start of this arc, which was only 40 hours since now, was Lavender level, and then he reached SSB level afterwards by training with Piccolo for a few hours.

[Hakaishin Liquir]

Tbh Toei would make Roshi SSB+ level if they thought that the lowest common denominator of fans would think it's cool.

[Overlord78]

Tbh Toei would make Roshi SSB+ level if they thought that the lowest common denominator of fans would think it's cool.

Rest assured if that happens you'll still see people defending it

[dbzfan7]

With Subtitles, I'd still say LSSJ Kale>SSB Goku. To be completely unphased is ridiculous. Though Jiren taking her out even if while off guard, is still an incredible feat I'd say since it was done what looked casually and easily.

[TheMikado]

SSJ2 Caulifla fights SSJ2 Goku but can't get any offense on him and Goku holds her back comfortably.

LSSJ Kale steamrolls SSJ2 Goku and then literally walks through a Kamehameha from SSJB Goku like it's nothing. LSSJ Kale is far beyond SSJB tier. Unless Goku stacks Kaioken x10/x15/x20 on top of SSJB, he's not touching LSSJ Kale.

Jiren then one-shots LSSJ Kale like she's nothing.

Goku is going to get his ass kicked if he fights Jiren. Jiren is so much more powerful that Goku, that it's downright scary.

OMG watching this now. The funny thing is it's almost like the universe is exacting revenge against all those who insisted LSSJ form wouldn't be in Super. This is Toei trolling everyone.

[TheSaiyanGod]

What's happening here is the same thing that happened to Android 17 and Gohan.

The will to desperately want to measure the level of a character we saw fought for a few seconds with a Goku turned into SSB that was sparing energy. And that at no time was surprised by the fact that Keeru endured the Kamehameha, and had no scratch in the hour to confront Jiren.

Until 17 already defended a Kamehameha of the Goku SSB with a field of force. Does this make 17>>>>Goku?

Goku did not seem very impressed. Again, I still say it's early to set the Keeru level. Kamehameha was ONLY fanservice, nor do I know if it should be taken seriously

[Overlord78]

What's happening here is the same thing that happened to Android 17 and Gohan.

The will to desperately want to measure the level of a character we saw fought for a few seconds with a Goku turned into SSB that was sparing energy. And that at no time was surprised by the fact that Keeru endured the Kamehameha, and had no scratch in the hour to confront Jiren.

Until 17 already defended a Kamehameha of the Goku SSB with a field of force. Does this make 17>>>>Goku?

Goku did not seem very impressed. Again, I still say it's early to set the Keeru level. Kamehameha was ONLY fanservice, nor do I know if it should be taken seriously

Your attempts at trying to keep what is left of Super Saiyan Blue's integrity is hilarious.

People just need to accept that the characters are as strong as they need to be in this series because that's clearly how Toei are handling this.

[SansrivaaL]

What's happening here is the same thing that happened to Android 17 and Gohan.

The will to desperately want to measure the level of a character we saw fought for a few seconds with a Goku turned into SSB that was sparing energy. And that at no time was surprised by the fact that Keeru endured the Kamehameha, and had no scratch in the hour to confront Jiren.

Until 17 already defended a Kamehameha of the Goku SSB with a field of force. Does this make 17>>>>Goku?

Goku did not seem very impressed. Again, I still say it's early to set the Keeru level. Kamehameha was ONLY fanservice, nor do I know if it should be taken seriously

You can add Krillin there, he pushed a SSJB's KHH back, Goku even struggled there.

[TAF108]

The two base theory generally asserts that if Goku goes SS off of his weak base, he ends up in the golden haired line of transformations, while if he goes SS off of his "godly" base, he ends up as SSB. I think many of us would have , with good reason, assumed that Goku would start the ToP in his weak base (Goku using SS1 in previews, etc.), and Nink doesn't seem like the sharpest or strongest tool in the shed, so when he goes SSB directly from base, one of the 3 possibilities I listed in the post you quoted must be true, in my estimation. It seems like two base theorists are concluding, in large part, that Nink was just that strong. I lean more towards Goku going weak base - strong base - SSB instantly as he is about to be knocked off.

That said, I'm actively trying to brew up a comprehensive one base theory with as few retcons as possible, but I don't have tons of spare time, unfortunately.

I see. Kinda interesting. Sorry that I don't have much to add here, I was just curious as someone who doesn't subscribe to the theory.

I don't subscribe to it either anymore. In fact, watching episode 24 of the dub basically sealed the deal for me that Goku has a single base, and at the time of his fight with the revived Frieza, his base is > Kid Buu. If you mix manga and anime together, that's an over 50x increase since the start of super up until episode 24, and I'd guess it's even quite a bit higher than that. I think it's pretty clear now that Goku never absorbed the full power of SSG, at least permanently, and that as it stands, his base is anywhere from Buu arc Kid Buu to Buu arc Ultimate Gohan or even a little beyond.

I can totally understand such a point of view. Kind of my same line of thinking, actually.

[BWri]

This is strength thread is counterintuitive, power levels in this show can change like wisp of wind.

Yeah, but it's still a fun part of the fandom. I felt the same way as you since Super started, but I respect how the denizens of this thread try to make sense of the senseless.

[BWri]

Tbh Toei would make Roshi SSB+ level if they thought that the lowest common denominator of fans would think it's cool.

Rest assured if that happens you'll still see people defending it

People are over-the-top with their defenses of Super. I came around to finally liking the show around the Goku Black arc, but you can't deny that it still has a lot of problems. I've even put the horrible power scaling behind, but scenes like Kale easily tanking a SSB KMHMH just kill me a little inside.

Strength-wise, I still don't think Kale is anywhere near SSB Goku. As always, Goku was holding back so that Toei could insert a metric ton of fanservice. That's all. The Jiren feat proved that. Next week we'll see Kale in a more respectful light, I'm sure. But overall, she is a powerhouse. I'd say easily above current Gohan and maybe #17 (I think those two are somewhere below Goku/Frieza/Vegeta and above everyone else).

[TAF108]

This is strength thread is counterintuitive, power levels in this show can change like wisp of wind.

Exactly this. I was all down for scaling Super during the earlier days, but post U6 arc, it's grown increasingly difficult and now, it seems as though the idea of consistency is entirely nonexistent.

[Bullza]

We didn't really see enough of Kale the first time around to say with any kind of certainty how strong she was meant to be.

Here we are shown she is in fact hugely strong. Nobody else has shrugged off a Kamehameha like that before.

It all just comes down to how serious Goku was that's all. We've seen him fire Kamehameha's that even Krillin could match him tand Android 18 could kick away. The Kamehameha here was clearly not the one that he used against Hit in the rematch or the one he used against Merged Zamasu.

I can't see Kale being above Hit. Hit has to be their best fighter surely.

[SuperDragoon]

I think it's kind of dumb that, even after this episode, there are many people saying that Beserker Kale is below Goku, Vegeta, Freeza, and Hit. Tanking a Ssb kamehameha is something no one shown in the tournament besides Jiren could do so effortessly. There was no indication in episode that Goku was holding back, nor did he have a good reason to.

[BlueBasilisk]

I think it's kind of dumb that, even after this episode, there are many people saying that Beserker Kale is below Goku, Vegeta, Freeza, and Hit. Tanking a Ssb kamehameha is something no one shown in the tournament besides Jiren could do so effortessly. There was no indication in episode that Goku was holding back, nor did he have a good reason to.

Goku actually looked surprised when she emerged and grabbed him. Considering how many strong characters (Hit/Toppo/Vegeta) were commenting on her monstrous strength I'd day were's supposed to conclude that she is incredibly powerful. It's counterbalanced by her being...well, a berserker.

[Shinomori]

Man, I don't see how yall do it. This episode pretty much put any kind of power scaling in this series to bed. How is it possible for Kale to walk through a SSJB attack like it's nothing? Have we forgotten that SSJB is using God ki? What's the point of making God ki such a big deal in the first arc of the show, only to have character after character put it's power to shame? This is ridiculous!

I can remember back in the day, how many of us always wondered who would win in a fight between Broly and SS2 Teen Gohan. I put my money on Gohan because I believe Broly's legendary form was only stronger than the first super saiyan form. (As we see in the movie, Goku, Vegeta, Trunks, and Gohan fought him in their SSJ1 forms) Then of course you had Broly's second movie where he fought adult Gohan, and perhaps that muddied the waters a bit on if SSJ2 Gohan could beat Broly. Ultimately when Goku was shown he could go further than SSJ2 and entered a SSJ3 form, I thought for sure Goku could beat Broly in that form. Fast forward to this episode, and my mind is completely blown. I was fine with Goku struggling to beat Kale in his SSJ2 form. I assumed he would go super saiyan 3 and beat her, but no, he went straight into his blue form, and still got his butt handed to him. That's just stupid in my book. Not only are you rendering power scaling totally obsolete, but the show is also saying God ki is extremely obsolete. Let's be real here, power scaling is one of the things that makes Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball.

[Marlowe89]

Goku actually looked surprised when she emerged and grabbed him. Considering how many strong characters (Hit/Toppo/Vegeta) were commenting on her monstrous strength I'd day were's supposed to conclude that she is incredibly powerful. It's counterbalanced by her being...well, a berserker.

That, and Jiren of all people voluntarily stepped in to take her down. He's given more acknowledgment to Kale than... well, anyone so far in the tournament.

I just don't see any possible scenario right now where Kale isn't beating the tar out of Goku unless he resorts to using Kaioken. Shrugging off a Blue Kamehameha is no small feat on its own, and it's not like Goku didn't have plenty of time to amp it up with more power considering how much time she was taking just walking towards him. Then she just grabs him by the head and throws him around like a ragdoll.