Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[TheSaiyanGod]

Goku was able to face Keeru only in SSJ2. Even though he was dominated, he could stand a fight against her.

After using the SSB, he says he will release '' a little more power. '' Probably, having been encouraged by the strength demonstrated by Keeru.
He is from the beginning restraining himself, he had no reason to use a Kamehameha in full power
We have already seen the Goku SSB Kamehameha in several different powers.
Damaged Gattai Zamasu and wounded Toppo in one moment, while in another was used against Kuririn and 17. Everything depends on the amount of Ki.

And even so, keeru got very breathless after being hit, barely able to hold Goku. That he was not so surprised by this, when he was going to confront Jiren, he was acting as if nothing had happened and he had no scratches, and he was not worn.

I think you can not set the level of Keeru, She is able to face an SSB, but not to win

[Bullza]

There was no indication in episode that Goku was holding back, nor did he have a good reason to.

His Kamehameha was puny compared to what he did to beat Hit or overwhelm Zamasu. He definitely wasn't using his very best Kamehameha on Kale.

They have mentioned a few times about them saving their power. It'd be weird for him to go all out so early on.

The Kamehameha that knocked the Trio De Dangers out probably wasn't his best by any means either.

[GodVegetto91]

Goku was able to face Keeru only in SSJ2. Even though he was dominated, he could stand a fight against her.

After using the SSB, he says he will release '' a little more power. '' Probably, having been encouraged by the strength demonstrated by Keeru.
He is from the beginning restraining himself, he had no reason to use a Kamehameha in full power
We have already seen the Goku SSB Kamehameha in several different powers.
Damaged Gattai Zamasu and wounded Toppo in one moment, while in another was used against Kuririn and 17. Everything depends on the amount of Ki.

And even so, keeru got very breathless after being hit, barely able to hold Goku. That he was not so surprised by this, when he was going to confront Jiren, he was acting as if nothing had happened and he had no scratches, and he was not worn.

I think you can not set the level of Keeru, She is able to face an SSB, but not to win

Who the heck is Keeru??!

[TheSaiyanGod]

There was no indication in episode that Goku was holding back, nor did he have a good reason to.

His Kamehameha was puny compared to what he did to beat Hit or overwhelm Zamasu. He definitely wasn't using his very best Kamehameha on Kale.

They have mentioned a few times about them saving their power. It'd be weird for him to go all out so early on.

The Kamehameha that knocked the Trio De Dangers out probably wasn't his best by any means either.

This Kamehameha was still able to leave Keeru well gasping, becoming unable even to continue holding Goku.

Against Zamasu, Goku broke both arms, countered his attack and further damaged the merger.

The power difference used is very large

[avasatu]

SS Blue to me is anything > SS2 up through extremely potent levels of power, such as slowing MZ's Holy Wrath. Goku explicitly says he's just releasing a little more power. SS3 is a garbage form, so he has no real reason to use it, especially in this setting. Additionally, Goku took zero damage, as far as I can tell, from Kale, even as an SS2.

[LowRyder2005]

If I may interject, those of you who do should really stop using arguments relying on the strength of Broly from the movies; the shout-outs are there and for everyone to see, but as far as canonicity is concerned, this is the first time we do see the "original/ legendary" Super Saiyan form. If in our regular universe it could match or surpass Super Saiyan Blue, there's hardly any inconsistency to speak of - at least in that regard.

That being said, there is the usual excessive "rule of cool-ness" that plagues Super's (and in general contemporary Dragon Ball) writing, so I can relate to people's dismay. I'm personally more interested to understand how do Goku/Vegeta/Kale/Cabba/Caulifla stand in relation to each other.

This Kamehameha was still able to leave Keeru well gasping, becoming unable even to continue holding Goku.

That's debatable, strictly speaking. It could have also had more to do with Kale being unable to control her power than suffering the aftereffects of Goku's Kamehameha, given the particular exposition nod on Piccolo's part that took place at that point.

[spoiler](Then again, who knows. Like I glossed many times in this thread we're talking about an arc in which a Krillin who couldn't hurt base Gohan could manage to hold his own against the same attack).[/spoiler]

[Bullza]

I was kinda hoping this episode could clear up who is stronger between Base Cabba/Caulifla and Bergamo/Basil/Lavender.

Perhaps above Basil and Lavender but below Bergamo?

[Xeztin]

Funny enough, they didn't make once reference to Broly in the episode. So it seems as though Kale SSJ Berserker form is her own unique transformation. Although Vegeta speculates it may be the Saiyan's true/original form. Kale is basically Universe 6 Gohan. When she's under mental or emotional stress, her power spikes.

I'm beyond confused at this point. Is the LSSJ form really the very first original that destroyed Salada back then from the legends? Or is the form called Berserker? Perhaps vegeta will refer to it as the LSSJ as he has Blue and 1 in the past while Goku will call it Berserker. Is it really on par or stronger than Blue? If so I can definately buy it being the true ssj form and the theory of fighting the SSG way back then before the SSG ran out of time and lost. Kust how much could Goku really hold back as an SSJB? Beerus just flicked him and almost killed him. I doubt he could weaken himself to power less than a SSJ1 in Blue.

[Marlowe89]

I was kinda hoping this episode could clear up who is stronger between Base Cabba/Caulifla and Bergamo/Basil/Lavender.

Perhaps above Basil and Lavender but below Bergamo?

They should all be around the same level, but I have it as Caulifla > Cabba > Bergamo > Basil/Lavender.

[Saiyan007]

Funny enough, they didn't make once reference to Broly in the episode. So it seems as though Kale SSJ Berserker form is her own unique transformation. Although Vegeta speculates it may be the Saiyan's true/original form. Kale is basically Universe 6 Gohan. When she's under mental or emotional stress, her power spikes.

I'm beyond confused at this point. Is the LSSJ form really the very first original that destroyed Salada back then from the legends? Or is the form called Berserker? Perhaps vegeta will refer to it as the LSSJ as he has Blue and 1 in the past while Goku will call it Berserker. Is it really on par or stronger than Blue? If so I can definately buy it being the true ssj form and the theory of fighting the SSG way back then before the SSG ran out of time and lost. Kust how much could Goku really hold back as an SSJB? Beerus just flicked him and almost killed him. I doubt he could weaken himself to power less than a SSJ1 in Blue.

considering he used SSJB against krillin and didn't kill him he can lower his PL to 5 if he wanted too in his god form

[TheSaiyanGod]

Goku was able to face Keeru only in SSJ2. Even though he was dominated, he could stand a fight against her.

After using the SSB, he says he will release '' a little more power. '' Probably, having been encouraged by the strength demonstrated by Keeru.
He is from the beginning restraining himself, he had no reason to use a Kamehameha in full power
We have already seen the Goku SSB Kamehameha in several different powers.
Damaged Gattai Zamasu and wounded Toppo in one moment, while in another was used against Kuririn and 17. Everything depends on the amount of Ki.

And even so, keeru got very breathless after being hit, barely able to hold Goku. That he was not so surprised by this, when he was going to confront Jiren, he was acting as if nothing had happened and he had no scratches, and he was not worn.

I think you can not set the level of Keeru, She is able to face an SSB, but not to win

Who the heck is Keeru??!

Keeru = Kale. Keeru is the name of the character. Kale is the adaptation

[BWri]

I think it's kind of dumb that, even after this episode, there are many people saying that Beserker Kale is below Goku, Vegeta, Freeza, and Hit. Tanking a Ssb kamehameha is something no one shown in the tournament besides Jiren could do so effortessly. There was no indication in episode that Goku was holding back, nor did he have a good reason to.

There's not much reason to think that he was completely serious either. If there's one thing that's consistent, it's that Goku's scaling is inconsistent and a horrible benchmark for judging his opponent's power. The reaction's that Kale got are impressive, but I still don't think it means much. Episode 101 will have to show me more, as Super's scaling often seems like an episode to episode affair. When a character's feats are consistently shown in at least 2 to 3 eps then I'll be comfortable putting them at the level everyone else is hyping them at.

But reasons for Goku holding back include: he's Goku, he's been holding back for the entire tourney so far, he wasn't taking Caulifla seriously, he wasn't taking Kale seriously at first either even after she transformed, he was most likely continuously gauging her strength and adjusting his own to match like he did with everyone else in the tourney so far, he probably miscalculated how strong she was and overestimated what his lower powered kamehameha would do to her (remember he's trying not to kill her). See, plenty of reasons.

[ChiefWamsutta]

I think the Super Saiyan forms are stacked like this now in terms of power:

SSBerserker > SSBlue = SSRose = SSRage > SBG = SSGod Radiance = SSGod >>> SS3 > SS2 > SS1 Grade 4 > SS1 Grade 3 > SS1 Grade 2 > SS1

I am not sure where to put SSB KK though. It is either greater than SSBerserker or equal to it.

[Almighty Majin]

U3 seems to be a very disappointing universe as the 2 fighters that were shown before the tournament turned out to not even be that strong at all. Nigrisshi really is weaker than the base Saiyans considering how Vegeta overpowered him previously and how Cabba just easily knocked him out the ring. Narirama is difficult to tell, but he was only stopped by Hit in the end and was finished off by him so I'd say he's stronger than Nigrisshi.

[Ki Breaker]

I think the Super Saiyan forms are stacked like this now in terms of power:

SSBerserker > SSBlue = SSRose = SSRage > SBG = SSGod Radiance = SSGod >>> SS3 > SS2 > SS1 Grade 4 > SS1 Grade 3 > SS1 Grade 2 > SS1

I am not sure where to put SSB KK though. It is either greater than SSBerserker or equal to it.

Do you have some tables? Because I really need to flip some about now..

How was SS2 cauliflowa able to smack around kales blast? How did SS cabba mange to put up somewhat of a fight against her, how did SS and SS2 goku do better than SSB goku against her..
How does she exist..
You might as well put SSBKK below oozaru now, apparently the more he powers up the weaker he becomes

[Zeno's button]

I think the Super Saiyan forms are stacked like this now in terms of power:

SSBerserker > SSBlue = SSRose = SSRage > SBG = SSGod Radiance = SSGod >>> SS3 > SS2 > SS1 Grade 4 > SS1 Grade 3 > SS1 Grade 2 > SS1

I am not sure where to put SSB KK though. It is either greater than SSBerserker or equal to it.

What? SSBerserker stronger than blue? Goku wasn't even trying and he never got hurt (not even in his SS2 form) and a while back Caulifla was able to effortlesly dodge a blast by Berserker Kale while in her SS2 form. Let's keep in mind Goku doesn't need to fight at his full power when transformed as a SSB (like when he fought Krillin, 17 and the Trio the Dangers). Furthermore, he needed to be very careful not to kill Kale, if he did he would have gotten disqualified.

[Bullza]

Also remember that he used a Kamehameha that matched Arale's and then right after was prepared to power up a second Kamehameha about 100 times more powerful.

Kale really could be stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Goku but don't be too surprised later if it ends up not being the case. Supposedly they're trying not to waste too much energy in this Tournament so he's not about to expend all his energy just yet.

Remember the Kamehameha that he used to defeat Hit in the rematch wore him out completely to the point the fight was practically a draw because of it. Obviously this Kamehameha just like the one against the Trio De Dangers is not nearly as powerful.

[Ki Breaker]

I realized something, goku didn't look like he took any damage whatsoever after the kale deal..
He was just as enthusiastic as always and challenged jiren straight up, he saw what he can do, if kale was indeed more powerful than blue, he wouldn't be so carefree here

[Zeno's button]

People should really calm down with the power level meltdowns. Goku doesn't need to fight at his full power when he is transformed as a SSBlue. God, he does regularly fight at a very low level when transformed. Do you think 18 and Krillin are equal to SSBlue Goku? 17? Bergamo?

He transforms to SSBlue but doesn't use his full power for different reasons: to finish off someone quickly (the wolves), to better control the energy he's using and not waste too much (SS3 is worse than Blue in this respect)... He could have used his full power against Kale but then she would be dead and he would be disqualified. In the tournament of power he needs both to save energy for later (Hit, Jiren) and avoid killing people. And actually, Kale took damage when Goku used the weak kamehame on her, she just didn't take notice until later because she loses her mind when she transforms. And Goku never took any damage, not even as a SS2.

So please, let's put to rest all this nonsense about powerscaling and Kale being stronger than SSBlue Goku.

[Bullza]

Watched the episode subbed now.

Base Cabba beat down Nigrisshi with no effort whatsoever. I'm sure they said he was the strongest from Universe 3, doesn't say much for that Universe.

Goku just said he was gonna let out more power, not a little more power when he went Blue.

Kale must be pretty damn powerful if just shouting was able to destroy some of that Kachi Katchin metal.