LGBT in DragonBall

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ABED
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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by ABED » Tue Jul 25, 2017 8:33 pm

So it's still a good thing o represent.
I know I sound like a broken record, but the issue shouldn't be framed in terms of representation because characters aren't representations of whatever sexuality, race, or gender they are. They are and should just be characters with whatever personality that work best for the story.
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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by ChibiGoku » Tue Jul 25, 2017 8:38 pm

Doctor. wrote:
ChibiGoku wrote:This isn't entirely 100% true. Sexual Identity, while it's strongly tied to sexual attraction, there's also more the emotional side of things. Kids, around 8, may start questioning this sort of thing, especially if they have emotional attachments towards their male friends that goes a bit further than just simply being a friend. This is something I experienced, but I was always told it was wrong for guys to be that way, and later on in my life, especially going through puberty, I struggled accepting being gay. So I feel at an early age, especially around 8 or so, it's important to show that this is normal and there's nothing wrong with it.

And even if the kids develop into a straight relationship, it can also help form their thoughts on LGBT community, potentially in a more positive manner. So it's still a good thing o represent.
Sexual education is a prominent thing in most schools nowadays. Kids shouldn't be getting any kind of moral message from a cartoon that encourages the use of violence to deal with your problems.
This isn't true. I can ask many of my younger friends and family members and they will tell the EXACT opposite.

You know how much sexual education I had during the 00s? 0. None. Nothing. And I have a younger cousin who is in, I believe first or second year of High School, and they don't teach anything of sexual education. The only thing they teach is "abstinence only" which does jack shit to help kids prepare themselves for the world. Seriously, sexual education here in the states is NOT the norm and has NOT been. There's also been regulation passed in some states that absolutely forbid discussion of talking about contraception and anything that doesn't fit into the "abstinence only" programs. Hell, I remember in the school I was, we had these posters on our walls that basically said "Wait till marriage". Except... At that point in time, when I was 18, and up until a couple years ago, I couldn't legally get married, so...

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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by Doctor. » Tue Jul 25, 2017 8:44 pm

ChibiGoku wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
ChibiGoku wrote:This isn't entirely 100% true. Sexual Identity, while it's strongly tied to sexual attraction, there's also more the emotional side of things. Kids, around 8, may start questioning this sort of thing, especially if they have emotional attachments towards their male friends that goes a bit further than just simply being a friend. This is something I experienced, but I was always told it was wrong for guys to be that way, and later on in my life, especially going through puberty, I struggled accepting being gay. So I feel at an early age, especially around 8 or so, it's important to show that this is normal and there's nothing wrong with it.

And even if the kids develop into a straight relationship, it can also help form their thoughts on LGBT community, potentially in a more positive manner. So it's still a good thing o represent.
Sexual education is a prominent thing in most schools nowadays. Kids shouldn't be getting any kind of moral message from a cartoon that encourages the use of violence to deal with your problems.
This isn't true. I can ask many of my younger friends and family members and they will tell the EXACT opposite.

You know how much sexual education I had during the 00s? 0. None. Nothing. And I have a younger cousin who is in, I believe first or second year of High School, and they don't teach anything of sexual education. The only thing they teach is "abstinence only" which does jack shit to help kids prepare themselves for the world. Seriously, sexual education here in the states is NOT the norm and has NOT been. There's also been regulation passed in some states that absolutely forbid discussion of talking about contraception and anything that doesn't fit into the "abstinence only" programs. Hell, I remember in the school I was, we had these posters on our walls that basically said "Wait till marriage". Except... At that point in time, when I was 18, and up until a couple years ago, I couldn't legally get married, so...
I said nowadays. The 00s were a long time ago. Over 7 years ago, in fact. 7 years changes a lot of things in terms of human evolution.

I'm sorry if that's the case for the States, but in that case, people should be fighting for better sexual education, not to have more representation in media. I learned everything I needed to about sexuality and sex before I even got into high school.

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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by Jinzoningen MULE » Tue Jul 25, 2017 8:53 pm

VegettoEX wrote:
Jinzoningen MULE wrote:Get that chip off your shoulder and learn how to have a discussion, dude.
This is not the way to have a discussion.
Isn't that funny? I suppose things like this are fine then:
[spoiler]
jcogginsa wrote:
Jinzoningen MULE wrote:Hang on there. Are they negative stereotypes, or are they just funny? In modern times, a ton of gay people are intentionally, obnoxiously flamboyant. Why is making fun of that a bad thing? Because it hurts some hypothetical person's feelings? If it does, the gays responsible for the stereotype should stop acting like adult children, because the very day that people stop acting that way, it won't be funny anymore. Humor only works because it's based in reality.

TL;DR: General Blue and Otokosuki are funny.
No, General Blue is a negative Stereotype, 100 percent and with zero ambiguity. Your atitude shows exactly why representation is necesary. NO, not all gay people are hyper flamboyant stereotypes. Most Gay people are not Hyper Flamboyant stereotypes. Same goes double for Gay people being peadophiles. STEREOTYPES DO NOT REFLECT REALITY!
[/spoiler]
Wow! What a productive, pro-discussion sentiment directed at me, and only a few posts before the one you just took issue with. :think:

I am so glad that I can count on this moderator here to be fair and objective. In another place, there might be some kind of bias in place, or the guy who owns the forums might conveniently ignore the context of a response, but surely nothing like that would ever happen here, what with the "higher standards" and whatnot. Keep up the good work comrade.

...and I'm supposed to take this seriously? :roll:
Doctor. wrote:I said nowadays. The 00s were a long time ago. Over 7 years ago, in fact. 7 years changes a lot of things in terms of human evolution.

I'm sorry if that's the case for the States, but in that case, people should be fighting for better sexual education, not to have more representation in media. I learned everything I needed to about sexuality and sex before I even got into high school.
The only way you can avoid sexual education in the US public school system is if your parents explicitly pull you out of it.
Last edited by Jinzoningen MULE on Tue Jul 25, 2017 8:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by Gerky » Tue Jul 25, 2017 8:55 pm

Jinzoningen MULE wrote:
Doctor. wrote:Children don't care about sexuality because that's not something they'll experience until they hit puberty.
As a general rule, this is true. The only time children tend to experience sexual identity pre-puberty is as a result of abuse, even in cases where the child doesn't remember said abuse.

However, keep in mind the Dragon Ball isn't just aimed at young kids, but teenage boys as well. Granted, healthy teenage boys don't actually care about any of this cancer, so your general point stands.
Oh, please. I knew I liked boys from a very young age. It's nothing to do with abuse. And I would have really loved see that it was completely okay that I liked boys in the media I consumed as a child. Kid's today are lucky they have shows like Steven Universe.

And you're constant referring to representation and diversity of a cancer isn't acceptable. Please, stop it.

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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by Jinzoningen MULE » Tue Jul 25, 2017 8:56 pm

Gerky wrote:Oh, please. I knew I liked boys from a very young age. It's nothing to do with abuse.
"As a general rule." Do you know what that means? "More often than not." "In most cases." Need I go on?
Gerky wrote:And you're constant referring to representation and diversity of a cancer isn't acceptable. Please, stop it.
I've only used the word "cancer" once, and the implication isn't even what you just suggested. Seriously, why is everyone so eager to misrepresent everything when these discussions come along? It's retarded.
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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by Gerky » Tue Jul 25, 2017 9:11 pm

Jinzoningen MULE wrote:
Gerky wrote:Oh, please. I knew I liked boys from a very young age. It's nothing to do with abuse.
"As a general rule." Do you know what that means? "More often than not." "In most cases." Need I go on?
Gerky wrote:And you're constant referring to representation and diversity of a cancer isn't acceptable. Please, stop it.
I've only used the word "cancer" once, and the implication isn't even what you just suggested. Seriously, why is everyone so eager to misrepresent everything when these discussions come along? It's retarded.
Right, doesn't mean it's acceptable. You also claimed that wanting representation was part of a 'retarded victim mentality'.

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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by Jinzoningen MULE » Tue Jul 25, 2017 9:14 pm

Gerky wrote:Right, doesn't mean it's acceptable. You also claimed that wanting representation was part of a 'retarded victim mentality'.
Nope. Another blatant case of hearing what you want to hear. Here's the quote:
Jinzoningen MULE wrote:I think the idea that we should insert alternative identities sexualities into everything is ridiculous, and obnoxious, and increasingly prevalent because of the, excuse my bluntness, retarded victim culture the west gleefully takes part in constantly, especially when it comes to the most useless aspects of identity, such as gender and sexuality. Someone forgot to publicly announce that everyone stopped caring ages ago, I guess.
When you're ready to stop lying and discuss, I'm here.
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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by Gerky » Tue Jul 25, 2017 9:22 pm

Jinzoningen MULE wrote:
Gerky wrote:Right, doesn't mean it's acceptable. You also claimed that wanting representation was part of a 'retarded victim mentality'.
Nope. Another blatant case of hearing what you want to hear. Here's the quote:
Jinzoningen MULE wrote:I think the idea that we should insert alternative identities sexualities into everything is ridiculous, and obnoxious, and increasingly prevalent because of the, excuse my bluntness, retarded victim culture the west gleefully takes part in constantly, especially when it comes to the most useless aspects of identity, such as gender and sexuality. Someone forgot to publicly announce that everyone stopped caring ages ago, I guess.
When you're ready to stop lying and discuss, I'm here.
Oh, my bad. Culture. Not mentality. Am I supposed to take this seriously?

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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by Jinzoningen MULE » Tue Jul 25, 2017 10:18 pm

Gerky wrote:Oh, my bad. Culture. Not mentality. Am I supposed to take this seriously?
Your head is still about 500 ft below the point, and you still haven't given an accurate summary of what I said. I'm not letting you get away with misrepresenting me, I don't put up with that bullshit. Get your head in the game and try reading it again. Make sure to read the words on your screen, not the ones in your head.
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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by Gerky » Tue Jul 25, 2017 10:28 pm

Nah, mate. I'm done with you. I won't be discussing anything with you any longer.

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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by jcogginsa » Tue Jul 25, 2017 10:39 pm

Jinzoningen MULE wrote:
Gerky wrote:Oh, please. I knew I liked boys from a very young age. It's nothing to do with abuse.
"As a general rule." Do you know what that means? "More often than not." "In most cases." Need I go on?
So what? THAT"S WRONG TOO. It is not more often than not. It is not in most cases. You're just peddling BS

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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by Doctor. » Tue Jul 25, 2017 10:48 pm

jcogginsa wrote:
Jinzoningen MULE wrote:
Gerky wrote:Oh, please. I knew I liked boys from a very young age. It's nothing to do with abuse.
"As a general rule." Do you know what that means? "More often than not." "In most cases." Need I go on?
So what? THAT"S WRONG TOO. It is not more often than not. It is not in most cases. You're just peddling BS
It's not wrong. Children don't question their sexuality until they hit puberty, as a general rule. They don't even care for it whether they like boys or girls, it's only when they hit puberty that they start wondering if it's "normal" or not. You're trying to push a narrative that kids question themselves about their sexuality or gender identity or whatever when that hardly ever happens.

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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Tue Jul 25, 2017 11:02 pm

I'd just like to mention, when it comes to offensive gay stereotypes, DB isn't the worst offender. Take Puri-Puri Prisoner from One Punch Man, for example - he's a character who was created a lot more recently than General Blue, and IMO he's a lot more offensive.
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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by jcogginsa » Tue Jul 25, 2017 11:04 pm

Doctor. wrote:
jcogginsa wrote:
Jinzoningen MULE wrote: "As a general rule." Do you know what that means? "More often than not." "In most cases." Need I go on?
So what? THAT"S WRONG TOO. It is not more often than not. It is not in most cases. You're just peddling BS
It's not wrong. Children don't question their sexuality until they hit puberty, as a general rule. They don't even care for it whether they like boys or girls, it's only when they hit puberty that they start wondering if it's "normal" or not. You're trying to push a narrative that kids question themselves about their sexuality or gender identity or whatever when that hardly ever happens.
I was refering to the assertion that people only question their sexuality earlier than puberty if they've been abused. That is flat out wrong

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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by Gaffer Tape » Tue Jul 25, 2017 11:08 pm

Doctor. wrote:It's not wrong. Children don't question their sexuality until they hit puberty, as a general rule. They don't even care for it whether they like boys or girls, it's only when they hit puberty that they start wondering if it's "normal" or not. You're trying to push a narrative that kids question themselves about their sexuality or gender identity or whatever when that hardly ever happens.
Okay, I'm gonna need some statistics on this or else I'm gonna have to call BS. Because I can certainly add to the pile that I was acutely aware of my sexuality from, well, literally as far back as I can remember. Did I understand the mechanics of reproduction? Of course not. But did I know what I was attracted to? Definitely. No question. And to bring this back around to LGBT, that's honestly the most common thread of the narrative I hear from those with same-sex inclinations: that there was never a moment they decided to become gay, but that they literally ALWAYS knew!
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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by Doctor. » Tue Jul 25, 2017 11:13 pm

Gaffer Tape wrote:Okay, I'm gonna need some statistics on this or else I'm gonna have to call BS. Because I can certainly add to the pile that I was acutely aware of my sexuality from, well, literally as far back as I can remember.
I didn't question that.
Doctor. wrote:They don't even care for it whether they like boys or girls, it's only when they hit puberty that they start wondering if it's "normal" or not.
Children know if they like boys or girls, they just don't care because sex isn't a concern yet.

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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by Jinzoningen MULE » Tue Jul 25, 2017 11:19 pm

Gerky wrote:Nah, mate. I'm done with you. I won't be discussing anything with you any longer.
Embarrassing that we have to stop a discussion because you can't bring yourself to properly read two medium-length sentences... :roll:
Gaffer Tape wrote:Okay, I'm gonna need some statistics on this or else I'm gonna have to call BS. Because I can certainly add to the pile that I was acutely aware of my sexuality from, well, literally as far back as I can remember. Did I understand the mechanics of reproduction? Of course not. But did I know what I was attracted to? Definitely. No question. And to bring this back around to LGBT, that's honestly the most common thread of the narrative I hear from those with same-sex inclinations: that there was never a moment they decided to become gay, but that they literally ALWAYS knew!
Many kids don't even have a solid concept of their gender until puberty. Bodily dysphoria is notoriously common among prepubescent children, but usually goes away at puberty. You'll forgive me for having reservations about a child having grasp of their sexuality. I certainly didn't, aside from the occasional thought; "This girl is cute", or something like that.
jcogginsa wrote:So what? THAT"S WRONG TOO. It is not more often than not. It is not in most cases. You're just peddling BS
I do have an argument for this, if you'd bother hearing it before disregarding the premise entirely. That's how logical discourse works, but I'm sure you weren't aware, so I'll give you a pass.

If you'd read up on evolutionary psychology and r/K Selection Theory, you can infer that kids with no investment (that consists of kids raised by shit parents, single parents, neglectful parents, and abusive parents) will end up being r's themselves, and develop sexuality early, and generally repeat the patterns of their parents. I recommend you read into this if you want to continue, here's wikipedia articles and a series of presentations on the matter.

I can't make the full case before you're well-read, but essentially, the r-strategy of raising children, listed above, inherently results in early sexuality and hypersexuality. I don't think I need to make the case that the r-strategy is more prominent than ever, what with the "Free Love" of the 60's up to today, where getting sex is about as hard as buying a condom. I don't have all the graphs on-hand, but here's a graph showing that child abuse is on the rise as recently as 40-20 years ago:
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
...and aside from a decline in physical abuse since this graph was put together, parenting strategies have only gotten more r over time, so it's safe to assume that not much has changed. Here's the graph showing that the r-strategy results in failed pair-bonding:
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
I'd wager a lot of people nowadays have a 60-80% chance of failure, and divorce usually means that both parents have to get jobs, leaving little time for the child, meaning that their child will be an r, and will probably have sex at a very young age, and will be hypersexual. So I guess you're right in that young sexuality isn't uncommon, but it is uncommon assuming a healthy K-selected environment.

This is an incomplete patchwork of a case, but I think it's good enough. Any questions or thoughts?
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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by Kanassa » Wed Jul 26, 2017 12:50 am

Jinzoningen MULE wrote: ...and I'm supposed to take this seriously? :roll:
Muel, no matter which side of this conversation you're on, do you really think snarking to the mod is gonna get you anywhere?
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Re: LGBT in DragonBall

Post by Jinzoningen MULE » Wed Jul 26, 2017 1:30 am

Kanassa wrote:
Jinzoningen MULE wrote:...and I'm supposed to take this seriously? :roll:
Muel, no matter which side of this conversation you're on, do you really think snarking to the mod is gonna get you anywhere?
Not sure why you're bringing this up, it wasn't that big a deal and has nothing to do with the topic. :problem:

...but since you asked; Yeah, I don't withhold my justified grievances just because they're moderating. When the guy in charge selectively picks out something fairly innocuous when someone else with an opposite opinion to mine is having an insane, incoherent, verbally diarrhetic seizure nearby, it smells a little funny. I'm not really concerned with whether or not it "gets me anywhere". I'm not the problem, and almost never am, and I'd like to think I have an okay-ish reputation to show for that.
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