Do you consider the Boo arc better than Super?

[ABED]

It wasn't an asspull. An asspull is when there's a no setup or a less than gracefull setup. It's a deus ex machina, which this wasn't. The Genkidama existed for years and is it that much of a stretch that one might think Earthlings would want to save the world?

Goku and Vegeta don't even have the excuse for wanting a good fight anymore at that point.

Except that it's their raison d'etre. It's who they are.

Having not seen Super I can't comment on Vegeta and Beerus.

[MR.Mark]

Admitting they stand no chance in a fight and relying on earthlings is who they are?

If this was Super they would of got Gohan's ass on the battlefield.

[ABED]

Admitting they stand no chance in a fight and relying on earthlings is who they are?

If this was Super they would of got Gohan's ass on the battlefield.

You assume stupidity is antithetical to making sense. It makes sense for those characters, and at the end of the day, Vegeta was correct. It simply took the right guy to convince everyone on Earth to chip in. Also, considering that everyone's energy was taken, including Gohan's, the logical inference is that Gohan couldn't have defeated Kid Buu.

And no, fighters is who they are.

[MR.Mark]

Wow, you are really going to imply that Kid Buu is stronger than Gohan? I'm not touching that one.

It was an asspull, the Buu arc is full of them, Vegeta comes up with the plan out of nowhere and the real reason is for Goku to get the win. Toriyama couldn't think up a reason to keep Gohan out of the fight that didn't make the characters look like idiots.

It's worse than the let's not stop Gero cuz we want to fight, at least they had time to train and prepare. Against Kid Buu the universe was at risk at that very moment, it was just lazy writing.

[ABED]

Wow, you are really going to imply that Kid Buu is stronger than Gohan? I'm not touching that one.

It was an asspull, the Buu arc is full of them, Vegeta comes up with the plan out of nowhere and the real reason is for Goku to get the win. Toriyama couldn't think up a reason to keep Gohan out of the fight that didn't make the characters look like idiots.

It's worse than the let's not stop Gero cuz we want to fight, at least they had time to train and prepare. Against Kid Buu the universe was at risk at that very moment, it was just lazy writing.

Whether that makes sense, it is a logical inference from what we saw.

It wasn't an asspull. There was setup. How was it out of nowhere? Whether you think Vegeta was stupid is irrelevant. He's acting in character. He wants to win the fight on his terms. And letting Dr. Gero create they cyborgs may have been stupid, but it's in character. The universe is at stake? True, but they aren't superheroes!

[MR.Mark]

Silly me, they aren't superheros, to the point where even there own self preservation be damned, great argument!

Gero was an example, why are you explaining the series to me? I've read/watched the show several times, let's focus on the actual topic.

Again, Vegeta gave a (weak) reason behind using the genkidama, but what was the setup? There was none, it came out of nowhere, it was an asspull.

At this point there was no fight to be had for either of them, it's not even about them being in character, it was pure plot convenience for Vegeta to suddenly give a shit if earthlings care to help themselves. Screw his just recently resurrected wife and kid, it's up to the earthlings that we all stick around now, go away Gohan!

Logic>Buu arc

[ABED]

Silly me, they aren't superheros, to the point where even there own self preservation be damned, great argument!

Gero was an example, why are you explaining the series to me? I've read/watched the show several times, let's focus on the actual topic.

Again, Vegeta gave a (weak) reason behind using the genkidama, but what was the setup? There was none, it came out of nowhere, it was an asspull.

At this point there was no fight to be had for either of them, it's not even about them being in character, it was pure plot convenience for Vegeta to suddenly give a shit if earthlings care to help themselves. Screw his just recently resurrected wife and kid, it's up to the earthlings that we all stick around now, go away Gohan!

Logic>Buu arc

What series have you been watching? It's not a show about saving the world. Goku constantly makes questionable choices for the sake of a battle. He lets Piccolo, Vegeta, and Freeza live. Apparently I have to explain the series and its characters to you because you keep using terms like ass pull and saying the characters are acting out of character for the sake of the story (that one was more implicit) when it's not the case. Vegeta and Goku may have been reckless, but that's their characters. Vegeta let Cell reach his perfect power and Goku let Dr. Gero create the cyborgs all for the sake of a good fight. Goku let Freeza reach his maximum in the middle of their battle.

What wasn't the setup? The Genkidama is a logical finishing move and it wasn't created at the last moment. The Genkidama existed for years in and out of universe.

There was still a fight. Using the Genkidama is them finishing the fight. If Gohan's energy alone isn't enough for the Genkidama, let alone the rest of the Z Team, how is Gohan going to defeat Kid Buu?

[MR.Mark]

Your taking this anti super hero mentality to the extreme.

The most hilarious part of this is, as flawed as the Buu arc is, it's probably one of the most about saving the world and the entire universe stories in the entire series. Most likely because at the time Toriyama knew he was ending the manga afterward.

YES Goku and Vegeta want a good fight, but did you miss Vegeta making plans with Dende to resurrect people and the Earth? Is that not saving the world right there?

I don't care if the Genkidama existed for a long time, there was no foreshadowing that Goku was destined to beat Buu with it, stop trying to defend lazy writing with lazy excuses.

Even though your argument for Gohan and the Genkidama is reaching, I'll bite. The move doesn't take all your full power from those donating energy to it, and it's purpose is to annihilate the enemy hit with it, vaporizing them to nothing. It took Vegeta killing him self to generate a blast anywhere close to that, and it still wasn't enough. Gohan could beat down kid Buu easily, but even he would have to generate a hell of a ki blast to vaporize Buu completely. Which I'm sure he could, but that's not as exciting or dramatic as the main Character Goku doing it, so yeah, plot convenience.

Furthermore, why was Goku teaching Fusion to Goten and Trunks? So they could have a good fight?

[ClutchBangstrip]

Boo saga is my favorite. No, Super is not touching the Boo saga. Nothing is.

[Spencer_23]

Yes certainly

[ABED]

Your taking this anti super hero mentality to the extreme.

The most hilarious part of this is, as flawed as the Buu arc is, it's probably one of the most about saving the world and the entire universe stories in the entire series. Most likely because at the time Toriyama knew he was ending the manga afterward.

YES Goku and Vegeta want a good fight, but did you miss Vegeta making plans with Dende to resurrect people and the Earth? Is that not saving the world right there?

I don't care if the Genkidama existed for a long time, there was no foreshadowing that Goku was destined to beat Buu with it, stop trying to defend lazy writing with lazy excuses.

Even though your argument for Gohan and the Genkidama is reaching, I'll bite. The move doesn't take all your full power from those donating energy to it, and it's purpose is to annihilate the enemy hit with it, vaporizing them to nothing. It took Vegeta killing him self to generate a blast anywhere close to that, and it still wasn't enough. Gohan could beat down kid Buu easily, but even he would have to generate a hell of a ki blast to vaporize Buu completely. Which I'm sure he could, but that's not as exciting or dramatic as the main Character Goku doing it, so yeah, plot convenience.

Furthermore, why was Goku teaching Fusion to Goten and Trunks? So they could have a good fight?

I'm not taking it to the extreme. They aren't superheroes. They are heroes but not in the same sense of western culture. I didn't say they were never trying to save the world. You are misreading my point. Clearly they will try to save the universe because if its gone, so are they, but that isn't their PRIMARY goal.

I don't think you understand what foreshadowing is or when it's neccessary. You don't need to foreshadow him using that technique to finish off an enemy at this point.

I can't say whether Super is worse or not. Even if I saw it, it could be hard because we're comparing an entire series to one arc.

[MR.Mark]

Well I never said saving the world was there primary goal either. My original point wasn't even about that to begin with. It's about making choices that make them look plain stupid for the sake Goku beating Buu, not about being in character.

[ABED]

It's stupid if you assume their end goal is to finish off Buu as quickly and easily as possible. We may not agree with their goal, but it's not illogical for them.

[MR.Mark]

Um, this was after Vegeta got his ass kicked, and Goku and his SSJ3 wasn't enough, they were DESPERATE.

Why did Vegeta risk his very existence knowing he stood no chance against Buu so Goku could attempt to gather enough ki in SSJ3 to vaporize Buu QUICKLY? Does Vegeta now enjoy a good beating as much as a good fight?

[ABED]

Because THEY wanted to be the ones to win - Goku and Vegeta.

[MR.Mark]

Vegeta admitted Goku in his SSJ3 form was the only one that could beat Buu at this point

Just like how he came up with the plan to put his existence on the line for Goku to win

Or came up with the Genkidama plan for GOKU to succeed

Or when he layed on the ground unable to move willing to die so Goku could kill Buu with it

All very noble and heroic acts by Vegeta btw

If THEY both wanted to truly win no matter what I guess everyone would of died, because the earth helped them win, more specifically, Goku win.

[ABED]

Um, I'm not sure what you are pointing out here, Goku and Vegeta were working as a team and Vegeta came up with the strategy to use the Earthlings' power. Goku is the one who has to weild the attack.

[MR.Mark]

No I'm missing the point you are trying to make.

First it's code of honor, then it's wanting a good fight, then it's Gohan can't defeat Kid Buu so it all makes sense!

Now it's Vegeta and Goku doing team work, which doesn't sound like much of a good fight.

Maybe you're confusing there pride when they INITIALLY went into the fight, however then Vegeta admitted he was no match, Goku was number 1, and then SSJ3 failed. There tunes quickly changed and it was very obviously about saving the universe at that point.

Annnnd this goes back to bringing in Gohan to save the universe would of made way more sense, but nope, Vegeta suddenly cared about the earth taking care of themselves so Goku could get the final blow.

[Kokonoe]

I don't, and I will freely admit that Buu saga has an abundant amount of inconsistencies, plot points that go nowhere, false hype, etc but at the end of the day it still has a villain that is far more entertaining and engaging than anything I've seen in Super. Not only that, but in terms of the anime, I haven't seen any fights that feel or look as good as the major ones in the Buu saga. Hell they some how made a candy fighting Buu the most entertaining thing ever.

Buu saga has a lot of creativity, it's heavily flawed, but it's highs make it enjoyable to watch in those moments.

[ekrolo2]

Also, considering that everyone's energy was taken, including Gohan's, the logical inference is that Gohan couldn't have defeated Kid Buu.

Goku's afraid to fight Super Boo without some kind of fusion and he's stronger then Kid Boo, I doubt Gohan or even Gotenks couldn't beat him if their vastly weaker dad can stalemate him.